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Originally Posted by MrFritz
Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
It seems to me that you're not understanding the point of skills for weapon classes. Damage isn't the point, nor should it be.
thats why every man-at-arms player loves to post about their huge flurry hits with all the buffs stacked on them. its obviously because people do not like using damage skills instead of basic attacks.

lets just go full derp-mode, why dont we?

/sarcasm off
Some kind of "ultimate" is fine as a one-of in terms of damaging skills, but in all seriousness, Flurry should be a level 19 ability.

Daggers Drawn should be level 19 as well... but actually deserve it, by being a more impressive skill.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 13/07/14 06:36 AM.
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It's easy to underestimate the dagger rogue in this game but after 2 playthroughs I'm quite happy with them except for the issue with backstab positioning.

When it comes to damage output I only had a problem due to the lack of decent level-scaled daggers I found in my playthroughs. Then you get a good one and boom - crazy assassin. Just have to invest in crafting/blacksmithing.

If I was to change anything however, I would make the backstab negate armor.

Last edited by Jackal2200; 13/07/14 01:50 PM.
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One possible option that could be added for Dex characters to level the playing field with other builds, yet still keep playstyles diverse: dagger-based consumables.
Same idea as the specialty arrows used by bow users (ie. ranged Dex characters), but for dagger users (ie. melee Dex characters). In reality, these could be all manner of tricks and traps.

Couple of caveats needed for them to function properly:

- They need to be based on using them for a weapon attack and have no cooldown (otherwise, may as well add more Scoundrel skills).
- The damage effects from them should scale with either weapon damage or Dex level, depending on the effect.
- They need to produce effects that are unique and powerful enough to be worth using, but be limited by supply/cost and scope of effect to make them situational.

Couple of ideas/examples:

Scorpion Wire - causes a marked target to be dragged back to you after moving X meters away.
Balm of Agony - extends the duration of damage over time effects on the target by X turns.
Searing Tincture - removes damage over time effects on the target, dealing damage based on their remaining durations.
Numbing Salve - causes the target's next attack to make them take damage and lose 2 AP.
Tongue-Tying Toxin - causes the target's next spell to make them take damage and lose 2 AP.
Time Bomb - causes an explosion at the target's location at the end of their next turn.

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I'm planning on doing 2 lone wolf glass cannon rogue and ranger in my next run, hopefully by then Larian will bump dex based skills or I'll be in trouble.

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rogues should do the same or a little more damage than a 2 handed if you are doing it right.
rogue's another advantage is she can move around on her first turn with speed buff + invisible giving you the chance to take out their squishy mages at the back.
arms' charges can be blocked by line of sight. though it does have a chance to knock down enemies.

dex fighters also should have higher dodge rate and hit rate than 2 hands.
their sneaking ability should be main focused.
talents should be like bully (+50%) + creeper + backstab (crit) + guerrilla (2x). if you add it up that is massive damage every time you attack with sneak.

dagger attack is 2 ap, sneak at high level should be 1 ap. that is 3 ap every time you attack. sneak then backstab.

always end your turn with sneak so they won't attack you! i would also recommend scoundral + marksman level 1. you need that tactical retreat for positioning (NOT FOR RETREATING) if you are having to run away you doing something wrong.

as soon as battle start, go speed buff then invis then move allllll the way down to their caster's back. then wait your turn....

wait your next turn too, wait (you are invisible so don't get AoE but Ai mage wouldn't aoe on himself he will aoe your other characters on the opposite side) until you max out your action point. then after that that is where you finish the battle, kill that squishy mage then his buddies and everyone else in one turn from the back. the enemies will be sandwiched and the ai will completely break unable to react.

glass cannon is a good trait to have though not really necessary. cus as soon as you break your invis, you expect to obliterate everyone. if it is a boss fight, finish your turn with sneak. the boss will ignore you.

as for attribute points it is DEX of course! then you can spend 2-3 speed, and 1-2 con.

if you are a melee fighter you need good gears...craft them. or save and reload until you get the orange dagger drop from reward boxes. as a rogue you really need a good dagger and the game doesn't usually give you one cus the game makers know rogues are broken....that is why rogues can't dual wield to begin with!

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 01:19 AM.
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Rogues have a couple advantages to 2-handed fighters.

They have much better cc moves. 2 stuns, a knockdown, a charm, and a blind. The charm, in particular, is amazing.
They have a built-in haste, and a built-in invisibility.
Their weapon uses fewer AP, meaning you can almost ALWAYS afford to attack. You never end a turn with a bunch of AP you can't spend.
They have a naturally very high movement speed.

Disadvantages:
Their survivability isn't as good, and they deal less damage overall.

A Bully+Guerrilla man-at-arms vs a Bully+Guerrilla+Backstabber scoundrel, the man-at-arms will almost certain do more damage, and requires 1 fewer talent.

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Originally Posted by dirigible


Disadvantages:
Their survivability isn't as good,


high DEX gives higher defense rating, they are hard to be hit; rouges don't mean to be tank anyway, good movement and invisiblility make them easily move in and out of the sticky situation.

Archers mean to stand back, high defense is more enough for their survival.

as less overall damage, rogue can do fighter level of damage with backstab; archers need more powerful bows!!! if there's unbalance, it's that we rarely see bows doing as much damage as melee weapons.


Last edited by teardropmina; 18/08/14 01:58 AM.
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Originally Posted by teardropmina
high DEX gives higher defense rating, they are hard to be hit; rouges don't mean to be tank anyway, good movement and invisiblility make them easily move in and out of the sticky situation.


If they're going to attack anyone they need to get in melee range. Once they're in melee range they rely on dodge, armor, block, and raw hp.
Warriors have better access to armor, block, and hp. The only thing rogues have is a bit more dodge.

Backstabbing doesn't do as much damage as a 2-handed weapon. And rogues are gimped because they're limited to only piercing weapons - there's a lot of enemies that are resistant to piercing (most notably, skeletons).

Last edited by dirigible; 18/08/14 02:16 AM.
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i disagree....
unlike 2hands, rogues can move further. arms may deal damage but they can easily blinded and debuffed and definitely frozen and stunned and knocked down...
2 hands usually require strength so your armors going to be the heavy ones. really easy for the mages behind to kite you....without a rogue/mages you will never be able to take out those guys at the back.....cus their melee will stop you and your charge is probably out of range...they will also run away after you charge....then their melee will opp strike you if you chase them....

rogue on the other hand is sitting on her a$$ invisible behind the boss' back... safe from all damage until she has maxed out her ap....then outburst of damage 7-8 sneak + 7-8 backstab on one single target like a boss or multiple targets...it should take 0-1 ap to move from one target to another. she can quickly reposition herself with marksman's tactical retreat, then use scoundrel skill again to escape.

the problem is during her invis time you need someone else to take all the damage!

you DON'T need crowd control...you should just kill the target (2 sneak + 2 backstab should kill any non boss squishies enemies like archers and mages in game costing you about 5 action points), instead of stunning it costing 4 action points and a chance to fail!

if you are 2hand sneaker, i figure you wearing heavy armor will limit your sneaking movements...and will usually be detected because you need to stay behind enemies for success, and 2 hand arms don't have invis so it will be so difficult to sneak with multiple opponents facing multiple direction.

also don't forget to TIME and buff the rogue! right before you decide to break her invis, give her that bonus damage from witchcraft which only last 2-3 turns. then don't forget to sneak right back after each backstab and end your turn with sneak so that the enemy will not stun/charm/knock you down....wasting the buff away...



Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 02:27 AM.
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blind, debuff, frozen, stunned, knocked down...
Rogues are vulnerable to all of these as well.

Warriors do move slower, but they have Bullrush, Phoenix dive, and with a single point in Marksman they can get Tactical Retreat as well. Not hard to catch up to any enemy, especially when they have a 15m range knockdown, in addition to bullrush (which also has 15m range + aoe knockdown).

Killing a single enemy, even a boss, isn't that hard. Handling all the extras is what's challenging. Once a rogue comes out of stealth, they have very low survivability. They need to spend AP cc'ing enemies or else they're going to die.

On hard difficulty, you definitely do need to use crowd control. Not to mention that Bully turns knockdown into a huge damage boost.

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rogues are vulnerable to those but the enemies will not attack a rogue if she is sneaking behind his back or be invisible!

you move from one target to another and moving should cost like 0-1 action point.....1 ap is not that much especially you should have like 20 ap before breaking your invis and kill each enemy in like 5 ap.....

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 02:30 AM.
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Remember, warriors can sneak too!

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they can...but heavy armor slow down their move speed! losing the map control! as soon as the battle start, your rogue should dart all the way to the back of the enemy lines...yea...the guy at the back who has been doing all kinds of nasty stuff to your melee.... your rogue should be behind him (so close that she can even smell his sweat) until she has enough ap. then that is where she kills the guy and all his buddies in shady hoods IN ONE SINGLE TURN....they won't even know what killed all of them...no one ever lived to tell the tales of what killed them....everything happened in a flash (1 turn = 1 second)


ONE MAJOR WEAKNESS
rogue will face her bigger fear when she has to fight the spiders in the desert level...it will slow her down so hard she will be a burden.....that is just one stage that i had troubled with....but it is okay, you can still sneak and invis fine so the spiders will leave your rogue alone! so play the level with only 3 characters and it is easy enough you don't need a 4th....

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 02:38 AM.
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A warrior could do the same thing.

Turn 1, bullrush and then sneak.
Wait for 20 AP
Whirlwind + Dust Devil = any enemy within 3-4m is dead. Move and attack anyone left standing.

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like i said line of sight can be blocking your warrior....and they can still run away and their melee will surround you. they may also be out of range!

phoenixdive, ram doesn't give you invis so your sneak can still fail if the mage has a buddy next to him!!! and sometimes the boss can actually turn around! and spot you if you don't have invis on! this is where the rogue position herself using marksman retreat or scoundrel retreat without getting opp strike!

plus it sounded like a one way trip.... if you sneak they can move away from you to fight the other party members then you will have to chase them with that heavy armor....

for a rogue, they can move away and you can catch up to them spending only 1 ap....


i like rogues because i control the battle field! i can be anywhere at anytime! and kill all enemies in one turn without them being able to react or counterattack!

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 02:52 AM.
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I am very confused about the rogue discussion here. Maybe I am doing something different on my Rogue.

I have around 8m worth of movement per AP. First round goes like this: Cast Oath of Desecration on Rogue, using Rogue. Cast Rage on Rogue, using Rogue. Cast Precision from Man at Arms on Rogue. This leaves around 11 AP. Next, we move behind the most dangerous enemy, I always win initiative, so nothing attacks me while I do so. Once behind enemy, Sneak. This leaves us with ~6-8AP depending on Fight layout.

Backstab most dangerous dude. He generally dies immediately from ~1200+ damage on the backstab, leaving ~4-6AP. We then move to next target. This typically costs 0-1 AP. Leaving 3-5. If we have 4 or 5, its another sneak and another round of monstrous damage. If not, damage is ~800 instead of 1200, and the numbers fluctuate, of course.

The Ranger is also amazing. (I run Rogue/Ranger/Jahan(All spells)/Maddie(sword and board))

Ranger with Quickdraw and sneak does around ~500 per arrow and fires 4-5 times a round, without haste. Add haste for 5-6 attacks.

Two-Handers are nice, but you dont get nearly as many attacks, and from what I can tell, nothing beats backstab including maxed out spells. Nothing. I haven't seen anything that wasn't invulnerable stand up to a full round of backstabs, and I am on the last leg of the game currently.

As far as spiders, they never hit me with their weakness or slow(the rogue, that is) so make sure you keep your gear as up to date as you can, and invest in sidestep and dex as much as you can to stay sturdy. My rogue is rarely affected by any status effects, but she's also got self-medicate just in case she ever is hit.

Far as I am concerned, the Rogue is top of the line damage, and extremely durable, in that almost nothing ever hits her. I've invested in sidestep and dex, but I dont have points in willpower, or body control, so its all making the opponent miss. I dont get the hate.

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Originally Posted by Seeten
I am very confused about the rogue discussion here. Maybe I am doing something different on my Rogue.

I have around 8m worth of movement per AP. First round goes like this: Cast Oath of Desecration on Rogue, using Rogue. Cast Rage on Rogue, using Rogue. Cast Precision from Man at Arms on Rogue. This leaves around 11 AP. Next, we move behind the most dangerous enemy, I always win initiative, so nothing attacks me while I do so. Once behind enemy, Sneak. This leaves us with ~6-8AP depending on Fight layout.

Backstab most dangerous dude. He generally dies immediately from ~1200+ damage on the backstab, leaving ~4-6AP. We then move to next target. This typically costs 0-1 AP. Leaving 3-5. If we have 4 or 5, its another sneak and another round of monstrous damage. If not, damage is ~800 instead of 1200, and the numbers fluctuate, of course.

The Ranger is also amazing. (I run Rogue/Ranger/Jahan(All spells)/Maddie(sword and board))

Ranger with Quickdraw and sneak does around ~500 per arrow and fires 4-5 times a round, without haste. Add haste for 5-6 attacks.

Two-Handers are nice, but you dont get nearly as many attacks, and from what I can tell, nothing beats backstab including maxed out spells. Nothing. I haven't seen anything that wasn't invulnerable stand up to a full round of backstabs, and I am on the last leg of the game currently.

As far as spiders, they never hit me with their weakness or slow(the rogue, that is) so make sure you keep your gear as up to date as you can, and invest in sidestep and dex as much as you can to stay sturdy. My rogue is rarely affected by any status effects, but she's also got self-medicate just in case she ever is hit.

Far as I am concerned, the Rogue is top of the line damage, and extremely durable, in that almost nothing ever hits her. I've invested in sidestep and dex, but I dont have points in willpower, or body control, so its all making the opponent miss. I dont get the hate.



i think you doing it wrong. someone else cast stuff on your rogue, rogues don't cast stuff on self except speed or invis....even then you still need someone to cast speed buff (pyro's) on rogue.

second, don't use sneak multiple times if your sneak is consuming more than 0-1 ap...get high enough sneak first!

third, if you going arms then i say instead of precision, get power. and have a geo (not the rogue) cast that accuracy buff on you.

and lastly dagger quality. really need to work on that save/load until you get that orange dagger! then craft the $hitout of it with tenebrium/elements and souls and whatever recipe you can find..

other than that, i think they decided to take away rogue's dual wield thanks to that damage burst.....now it is like 2 handed dagger!! ooooh.....fancy

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 03:20 AM.
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this kind of balance discussion is funny, there's no pvp in this game, and it isn't supposed to be played solo either. what do you guys want? duel warrior and rouge to see who wins? every class has its role/function in team battle. rouge is extremely good team class.

maybe a solo-do it all-overpower build discussion is a better title for this (or any of such "balance" thread) thread?


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Originally Posted by teardropmina
this kind of balance discussion is funny, there's no pvp in this game, and it isn't supposed to be played solo either. what do you guys want? duel warrior and rouge to see who wins? every class has its role/function in team battle. rouge is extremely good team class.

maybe a solo-do it all-overpower build discussion is a better title for this (or any of such "balance" thread) thread?



we aren't talking about pvp. we just saying rogues aren't underpowered like the op was saying....i don't know about rangers, never used one...but rogues do suck in early stages...but in later stages....oh my god.....the game was soooo easy...you can kill the final boss in 2-3 turns, as soon after his chance to hit increases....


silly that a rogue with one dagger can kill a dragon that is threatening the universe in 3 seconds....


also witchcraft is another one that is insane powerful...their summons can absorb soooooooooooo much damage and deals sooooooooo much damage. you can summon him right next to the enemy before the battle start to conserve cooldown and ap. the ai loves to attack that skeleton 2 handed guy with poison because he is next to it and he will oppstrike if the ai leaves him dealing a lot of damage!!

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 03:11 AM.
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Originally Posted by Wrathunleashed
i think you doing it wrong. someone else cast stuff on your rogue, rogues don't cast stuff on self except speed or invis....even then you still need someone to cast speed buff (pyro's) on rogue.


Well, if I wanted someone else to cast stuff on my rogue, since my rogue always goes first, I'd need to abandon round 1's attacks, or attack with greatly reduced effectiveness, which isn't optimal.


Originally Posted by Wrathunleashed

second, don't use sneak multiple times if your sneak is consuming more than 0-1 ap...get high enough sneak first!


I use sneak before every backstab. Sneak costs 1 AP and adds 50% stacking damage buff, resulting in over 1000 damage a backstab, depending on how many other buffs are running. The only time I recommend not sneaking is when you have 2 AP left, in which case, backstab is better than passing.

Originally Posted by Wrathunleashed

and lastly dagger quality. really need to work on that save/load until you get that orange dagger! then craft the $hitout of it with tenebrium/elements and souls and whatever recipe you can find..


My dagger owns. Still, I agree, having a great dagger is important. I assume having a great two-hander really helps the Fighter, too.

Originally Posted by Wrathunleashed

other than that, i think they decided to take away rogue's dual wield thanks to that damage burst.....now it is like 2 handed dagger!! ooooh.....fancy


I have a 2 hander on Madora, it doesn't come within 1000's of equal damage. Its a good one, also, but it costs 4 AP to 3 for backstab+sneak, doesn't get a guaranteed critical...I'd be interested in seeing numbers for a fully optimized 2 handed fighter's damage, but I am extremely confident its markedly less than my backstabs. (Maybe not on groups where whirlwind + dust devil can happen, but on single targets)

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