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A 2-handed warrior can definitely out-damage a rogue with the right setup.
I've hit for 2000 damage on a single hit, with Oath of Desecration + Bully. Now add Guerrilla bonus to that, and you get something like 3000 damage on a single attack.
So rogue: 1000 damage for 3 ap
But warrior: 3000 damage for 5 ap

2-handed warrior can, on turn one, cast oath on himself, bullrush into a group of enemies, knock them down, and then whirlwind to kill them all instantly. He can then stealth, if he wants to, and spend the rest of the fight killing off the stragglers.

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Originally Posted by Seeten
Originally Posted by Wrathunleashed
i think you doing it wrong. someone else cast stuff on your rogue, rogues don't cast stuff on self except speed or invis....even then you still need someone to cast speed buff (pyro's) on rogue.


Well, if I wanted someone else to cast stuff on my rogue, since my rogue always goes first, I'd need to abandon round 1's attacks, or attack with greatly reduced effectiveness, which isn't optimal.


Originally Posted by Wrathunleashed

second, don't use sneak multiple times if your sneak is consuming more than 0-1 ap...get high enough sneak first!


I use sneak before every backstab. Sneak costs 1 AP and adds 50% stacking damage buff, resulting in over 1000 damage a backstab, depending on how many other buffs are running. The only time I recommend not sneaking is when you have 2 AP left, in which case, backstab is better than passing.

Originally Posted by Wrathunleashed

and lastly dagger quality. really need to work on that save/load until you get that orange dagger! then craft the $hitout of it with tenebrium/elements and souls and whatever recipe you can find..


My dagger owns. Still, I agree, having a great dagger is important. I assume having a great two-hander really helps the Fighter, too.

Originally Posted by Wrathunleashed

other than that, i think they decided to take away rogue's dual wield thanks to that damage burst.....now it is like 2 handed dagger!! ooooh.....fancy


I have a 2 hander on Madora, it doesn't come within 1000's of equal damage. Its a good one, also, but it costs 4 AP to 3 for backstab+sneak, doesn't get a guaranteed critical...I'd be interested in seeing numbers for a fully optimized 2 handed fighter's damage, but I am extremely confident its markedly less than my backstabs. (Maybe not on groups where whirlwind + dust devil can happen, but on single targets)



i didn't say 2 handers do more damage...i have always said rogues do more damage...group whilwind cost too much ap for any good use actually.

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 03:23 AM.
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Thats 1000 a hit for the rogue, but it hits twice, so 2000. Also, I've hit for well over that number, 1224x2 is the most I remember, but I haven't been paying that close attention to it.

My warrior is all con rather than speed, so I don't have nearly the actions to bullrush + 3 other things, but I can imagine a glass cannon 2 hander build with sneak. Maybe my next playthrough I'll do Rogue/Knight/Jahan/Madora and make Maddie tank, and have the other 2 as melee monsters and see how they both do.

Doing math on this, by the by, shows 2000 for 3 ap at 666 and 3000 for 5 ap at 600 damage per AP.

Last edited by Seeten; 18/08/14 03:28 AM.
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yea but you have to remember that rogue backstab crit is 100%. your 2 hand crit is 1 out of 5-10 or something....

the battering ram has range of 15 m only...cost 6 ap...your whirlwind cost 6 ap... you can charge a group of enemy IN YOUR LINE OF SIGHT WITHIN 15 M and YOU STILL NEED 12 ap on turn 1!!

meaning NO SMOKE, NO BOULDERS, NO WALLS, NO ELEVATION must be in-between or your combo fails.

don't know about the bullrush you are talking about...is it like a talent, a special skill or something? cus arms don't have a spell book called bullrush....or you mean battering ram? cus like i say i m not really a 2 hand person....

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 03:39 AM.
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The warrior could also use phoenix dive, or tactical retreat. Or simply walk to the enemy.
Bullrush is convenient because it works 9 times out of 10, especially if you bother positioning before starting the fight, and because it deal quite a bit of damage by itself.

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I like bullrush, and I like my Warrior, it just doesnt do nearly the level of consistent damage.

I guess my point is, I don't understand why people dont think rogues are awesome.

With my setup I do incredibly reliable, incredibly high damage every fight. I normally wipe out the 2 most dangerous enemies on turn 1 with my rogue, before the warrior even gets initiative.

Doesn't mean I think Warriors are bad, I just don't think Rogues fail at their primary purpose. I think they excel at it.

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yup i definitely don't think 2 hands are underpowered at all....they have their use actually.

unlike rogues, 2hands can actually 'tank' and still do massive amount of damage!

madora maybe 2hand but she can tank just fine. though she can be a bit slow.

i seriously doubt you would need a shield to tank in this game.

but i heard that my friend who had a shield tank said you can almost always block every physical attacks at you...and resist a lot of elemental damage so hardcore with the shield.

but i think chest armor is enough to absorb the damage. and 2hands for major major damage.

also don't forget arms got some real powerful support spells like nullify and inspire. and then knockdowns for major crowd control...and whilwind for aoe damage....but for a single target i think rogue would win the race.



if your rogue start first, i usually just save ap for next turn. let them come to you.

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 03:51 AM.
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I don't think rogues are bad, I just think they have less potential damage and survivability than warriors. Flurry and Whirlwind give warriors incredibly high burst damage. Picture of Health and Weather the Storm give them very high passive survivability.

Rogues make up for it with much better cc (charm!) and more reliable constant damage.

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My rogue survivability is fine. She dies about the same amount as Madora, which is to say "Not often." She also has over 100% on most resists, and a huge defense score, and sidestep. She's also generally sneaking at the end of her turn, which causes her to not get attacked hardly ever, an extremely underrated defense.

An argument could be made that a 2 handed fighter can also sneak, and its a good one. I don't know what to say other than "I'd like to try that out and see if its as awesome as my rogue is" =)

I guess the long and short of it is, I'm playing a Ranger/Rogue game and I've completely chewed up the fights. I think I've only lost 2, and I've only lost characters a couple of times beyond those 2 losses. I did Braccus at level 8, I did the first spider fight (Level 14 Spiders) at level 10, and I won all those fights with the Ranger and the Rogue as the primary damage sources. If that makes Dex characters underpowered, I'd hate to see the overpowered damage sources. (Don't say Mages, My Jahan is pretty well geared and optimized, and is relegated to support due to the sheer volume of damage the rogue and ranger do.)

Finding a good dagger is tough, though, maybe if you are playing a game where you didn't find one, it'd seem much worse.

Last edited by Seeten; 18/08/14 03:55 AM.
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I actually really want to try a sneaking 2-handed warrior. I'd do it on my current playthrough, but I'm doing sort of a challenge run and don't want to end up with anything too cheesy.

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i have tried it, it works but you would need another armor to absorb the damage for you in your party.

and also remember that your map control is severely reduced. battering ram has 8 cooldown, phoenix dive has 10cd. cost 6 ap each. and your whirlwind is 6. so it is one way trip only after that you will be kite a lot.

also do remember that you can't invis. meaning if multiple enemies facing multiple directions and when they move they can make your sneak fail and be exposed and your 2 hand madora is completely isolated by herself in the middle of all the enemies....

for a battering ram which cost 6 ap that travels 15m i think rogues can travel a lot further with speed for 6ap but again, battering ram has a chance to knockdown and deals damage. so it is not an underpowered skill!

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 04:03 AM.
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The biggest downside is the movement speed, but you could use cup of oil on all armor pieces so you are wearing heavy + move speed, or, I guess you could just say eff it and wear medium. In fact, I have tenebrium 7 on my rogue, I could just slap a two-hander on her, buy whirlwind and dust devil and battering ram and try it myself with a tenebrium 2 hander.

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I could still move around the map at 8m+ per AP, the dagger adds to my movement, but I think its only 0.70m.

Interesting idea.

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now that is more like it...wear lighter armor...but require dex to wear them...you are slowly turning into a 2 handed rogue that doesn't use dagger.....but str based weapons....

so all it boils down to is rogue attacks twice for 2 ap. 2hand attack once for 4 ap. whatever is on the attack value of a dagger vs attack value of a 2 hand right? 4x dmg of xx lvl dagger vs 1x dmg of xx lvl 2hand.

even then....remember that rogue got 100%crit chance. and invisibility. movement speed. (i wouldn't recommend their crowd control as they cost a lot of precious ap)

disadvantage: no aoe and will be squashed if she gets caught in AoE.

2hand got more armor and resistance and lots of 'AoE' damage, buffs and debuffs! (nullify is sooooooo good) and they can carry more items! self heal is really really nice! battering ram and phoenix dive try to make up for its speed loss. high con from heavy armors gives you a good starting ap. after that it is one way trip only.

disadvantage: slow...sneak with slow movement and without invisibility is less efficient. also your LoS line of sight can be blocked....unable to use battering ram. some enemies are too far for you to use battering ram. smoke/walls/objects blocks LoS, burning/poison fields damage you cus you can't walk around it.


also i would like to point out that you shouldn't use rage on your rogue...cus it lowers your dex though it does boost your damage you can spend points elsewhere. arms skills only benefit from high str.


mages are also good tanks...though they wear robes, they don't tank, but their summons will. they also deal a lot of pure magic damage while their summon also deal crap load pure physical damage and the summons will start out with high starting ap especially that skeleton 2hand dude with high con.
their summon will not complain after the battle ends if they get caught in your AoE. madora will. i actually caused her to leave the party one time cus she was standing on my fire too many times after each battle ends....she got angry and say something like oh i don't want to travel with you anymore and left. so i had to reload.........

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 04:42 AM.
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Heh, I have nullify resistances on my Rogue, my Ranger and Madora. wink

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still under the op's topic of rangers being weak.
so tell me about your ranger bow/crossbow
cus i never thought they could do much damage so i never used them...instead i just had another mage with 2hand skeletal armor summon! can your ranger outdps a mage?

Last edited by Wrathunleashed; 18/08/14 04:49 AM.
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Rangers cannot out damage anyone, in my experience.

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A well made ranger will wreak havoc and in most situations where the opponent has huge defence rating/armor he still has enough tricks up his sleeve to be competitive.

That being said, every "class" when build properly can do pretty insane stuff.

http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=539712#Post539712 to go more indepth of archer.

Don't have to much time sadly otherwise would love to elaborate.

Ciao ciao!

Rashar.


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But it doesn't matter what rangers can do. Nullify + Lower resistance are just simply too good. And if you use STR simply to get those 2 may as well use a 2h weapon.

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yea but you have to remember that rogue backstab crit is 100%. your 2 hand crit is 1 out of 5-10 or something....

the battering ram has range of 15 m only...cost 6 ap...your whirlwind cost 6 ap... you can charge a group of enemy IN YOUR LINE OF SIGHT WITHIN 15 M and YOU STILL NEED 12 ap on turn 1!!

meaning NO SMOKE, NO BOULDERS, NO WALLS, NO ELEVATION must be in-between or your combo fails.

don't know about the bullrush you are talking about...is it like a talent, a special skill or something? cus arms don't have a spell book called bullrush....or you mean battering ram? cus like i say i m not really a 2 hand person....

Idk what your smoking mane. You start with ram in sneak/invisible mode or nullify or mass slow which doesn't initiate combat. Now if you cast oath, rage on yourself too, that ram can kill almost everything except bosses using 0 ap on turn one. (and you have like 15 starting AP and 24 ap per round with 5+ movement speed and 45% crit chance, virtually unkillable and immune to all CCs, and have 30 initiative and.. and ....)

Think about that for a second. Think. Then tell me is there any reason to play anything else if you want to humiliate the AI as much as possible?

Edit: oh and there are two of those toons, meaning the monster I described isn't even optimized. I haven't use all the books and rubies. And I got those stat books at lvl 8.
Keep in mind too that since they are 2 LW. I had to invest in leadership for both of them (both have 4-5) and took Pet Pal and one of them had to have some loremaster while the other had 5 BS and 5 crafting. Never rerolled.

Last edited by haxingW; 18/08/14 06:57 AM.
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But it doesn't matter what rangers can do.


Original topic a few pages back seems to be about: dex based class underpowered?

The one who's offtopic is you, not that I mind, but according to the topic it is important what rangers can do. Now I do agree with you on the virtual immortality of melee classes but that was not the issue atm smile.

With kind regards,

Rashar.

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