Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate #556747
09/10/14 02:18 PM
09/10/14 02:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
To Mods/Admins: Remove this thread if it is against ToS or it got out of hand. If you want to discuss this further, please keep it civil.

Found in here: http://gamergate.giz.moe/about/
Quote
GamerGate is the name given to a series of scandals in the gaming industry that erupted in August 2014. Unethical behavior by the gaming press and game developers was exposed. This included (but was not limited to):

Financial ties between devs and games writers
Gaming press members promoting the games of people they had personal and financial relationships with
Harassment of perceived opponents (including DDoS attacks)
Widespread censorship and a refusal to discuss the issue

The response from the gaming press was to first attempt to suppress the information, then to attack gamers as "misogynists", "racists" and even "terrorists"


Current Campaign: https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/17127-gamergate?locale=en Closing in under 2 hours. TotalBiscuit and Boogie joined on the campaign.

Go to the first link if you want more information about the movement. I will post links that are relevant for me and put relevant discussions I have encountered in the past in here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipcWm4B3EU4 (Gamergate in 60 seconds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2v_Anr5cbs (Rhetoric, "Gamers are Alive")

Remember the Gamers are "dead" articles? There might be more to that than in the surface.

List of things to consider that are usually the culprit of discussion for #Gamergate. On that list, the author also pointed out what she agrees with. Credit to Dizzy Chuggernaut for posting it.


Quote

From the Gamergate side in general:

- Indie devs are getting unfair advantages by sleeping with/being overly friendly with journalists and PR people. (agree)
- The indie development scene is very clique-ish, with disproportionate bias towards people living in close proximity. (agree)
- Discussion has been censored. (agree)
- The journalists involved smeared critics by calling them "misogynists" and "privileged straight white males" and so on. (agree)
- On social media the same journalists openly harass and insult level-headed criticism like 8 year olds (Leigh Alexander anyone?). (agree)
- Eron Gjoni (an emotionally abused ex that wanted no part in harassment) has been demonised to an extreme degree. (agree)
- Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian are considered representatives of women in the gaming industry, which has not been received well by many of Gamergate's female supporters.
- Mainstream publications and the Wikipedia article have taken the journalists' unethical articles as gospel and have perpetuated the smear campaign. (agree - but disagree that it was entirely intentional)
- Harassment towards Gamergate advocates has been downplayed in favour of the harassment against Quinn and Sarkeesian. (agree)
- Widespread hypocrisy from the people involved (many racist, homophobic, misogynistic and transphobic slurs have been used by anti-Gamergate people in stark contrast to the narrative they want to tell.) (agree)
- People who condemn harassment are being unfairly lumped in with the (mostly anonymous) harassers. (agree)
- Zoe Quinn sabotaged a feminist game charity for her own personal gains. (agree that she sabotaged the charity, unsure about the motives)
- People are using "social justice issues" as cheap tactics to garner sympathy and get donations from the public. (on the fence)
- It has been made a gender issue because the catalyst was a female. (mostly agree but requires context)

From the Gamergate fringe:

- Progressives want to enforce an ideology of Cultural Marxism
- Extreme feminists want to increase their influence on pop culture
- "Pop culture critics" want mass censorship of art.

From the Gamergate opposition:

- Women are not welcomed by the gaming consumers
- Eron Gjoni was a bitter ex that wanted revenge
- Zoe Quinn's relationships didn't give her more exposure/better connections in the industry
- Eron lied/Photoshopped evidence for his thezoepost blog
- Zoe Quinn has been slut shamed (agree)
- Zoe Quinn was merely expressing her sexuality
- If Zoe Quinn's infidelity is true, it doesn't warrant harassment (agree)
- Gamergate supporters accused Anita Sarkeesian of faking her own harassment without decent evidence (agree)
- Gamergate has been a shield for misogynistic harassment
- Gamers are content with the status quo and don't want better female representations in games and games design
- Opposition is mostly or entirely from straight white male gamers
- People that aren't part of the aforementioned demographic are liars
- Gamergate is full of conspiracy theorists
- Gaming journalism isn't a big deal and has more similarities with blogging therefore ethical standards need not apply
- Gamergate is full of socially inept fanatics that need to get outside more
- Gamergate supporters are reluctant to oppose the harassment of Quinn and Sarkeesian

From the Gamergate opposition's fringe:

- Gamergate wants to re-enforce an oppressive patriarchal societal structure that benefits men only
- Female supporters of Gamergate have internalised misogyny
- More moderate feminist speakers are trying to push regressive, conservative politics



Sommers, a feminist, argued that games are not sexist.

The Fine Young Capitalist (TFYC) confession about how their charity went down. TFYC had a charity drive to support a woman's idea and turn it into a video game. The winner of that drive will still get royalty.

Adam Baldwin, actor and creator of #Gamergate hashtag, is intereviewed here. It's mostly his political viewpoints or just a general interview about his life. What is interesting here is the story behind the hashtag's conception.

Boycott list of #Gamergate

For those that tolerate the current industry as it is, this is for you.

Interesting read (NSFW):
chronological events and harassment/insults/threats received by supporters of #Gamergate
When A Black Game Journalist Spoke Up On #Gamergate
factual feminist
http://theflounce.com/harassment-abuse-apologism-sanitizing-abuse-social-justice-spheres/

Pressure on Larian Studios, developer for Divinity Original Sin, for "political correctness".

An Anonymous messaged me about what he/she feels on the Gamergate issue. I will respect his/her right to privacy because he/she asked for it. Here is his/her response:


Quote

The dark side of the gaming industry. While I'm not really into the issue, I do have my own observations on how gaming journalism is running and how they seem to try to impose their collective view on what games should be rather than on what it actually is.

Remember the flak that Ubisoft got for not including a female character/avatar in Assassin''s Creed Unity? I think that's just pathetic sensationalism from people who wanted to push ideas and agendas that are out of context. I've read probably around five articles talking about how regressive Ubisoft's stance was, and how it does not promote gender equality,etc, etc. Surprisingly, none of them took note of the fact that the game lets you control one protagonist only, and the avatars were intended to replace Arno in someone else's system. Getting a female avatar while you are playing as a male in your own console makes no sense whatsoever.

While I also want to see more games with female (heck, maybe even gay) protagonists, I'm wary about putting it in a game just to satisfy the "demand" for more representation. If the story does not call for it, I don't see any reason why.

When I make reviews (yes, I write for a website with a different handle), I give my impressions, but ultimately leave it to the reader to decide for himself if he or she will like the game or the movie. For example, I reviewed both Rurouni Kenshin: Kyoto Inferno and The Legend Ends, and while it is clear that I liked both, I did highlight some parts that may not be that good for other people. The same when I wrote about Assassin's Creed Rogue. Was I excited about the announcement? Hell, yeah! I haven't made the jump to next gen so that's welcome news. Did it ever cross my mind that Ubisoft is milking this franchise dry by releasing a game that's 80% carbon copy of Black Flag? Of course it did, but I'll judge the game when it comes, and on its own merits and flaws.

I also remember an incident way back when the Tomb Raider reboot was still in its development stage and there was a talk (or a video, I think) of Lara being possibly raped. I don't know the details, but I do remember there was outrage about it. But hey, I'm cool with it, if it furthers the story that Lara Croft was hardened by her experiences on that island. It wasn't included in the game, but I do find it ironic that people are angry about Lara being "objectified" when she has been so for years since the late 90s. Maybe it depends on how the "rape scene" would have been made, but the idea of a woman being raped by men who had been stranded on a place for an untold period of time is as real as it can get. It doesn't make Lara Croft an object in my eyes, it just hammers the point that she's been going through hell. Putting in women's rights in a game that's about a strong woman is, well, irony at its finest. But much of those anti-gamergate folks love to put issues where they don't belong.

So in principle, I sympathize with gamergate, because they are real problems that no one wants to see. But it's the fact that no one wants to see it that forms the backbone to its resistance.



To reiterate, if you want to discuss this further, please keep it civil.

Last edited by henryv; 09/10/14 02:31 PM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #556761
09/10/14 08:15 PM
09/10/14 08:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363

Last edited by henryv; 10/10/14 01:43 AM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #556794
10/10/14 04:11 PM
10/10/14 04:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363

Last edited by henryv; 10/10/14 05:01 PM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #556835
11/10/14 02:02 PM
11/10/14 02:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
There has been recent events that people received "doxx" or threat reports from anti-gg, but when pro-gg received the same, they were silent.

https://twitter.com/GGfeminist/status/520754494313754624

The person who have received the "threat" on the first picture is a known troll. So, I will leave it to you to decide whether or not you want to believe it.

https://archive.today/ApOy0
https://archive.today/PjNM4

And if you did find the tweet about the "threat/doxx" the messages doesn't even state #Gamergate, yet the tweeter manages to connect both #Gamergate and the messages.

Last edited by henryv; 11/10/14 07:09 PM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #556845
11/10/14 09:12 PM
11/10/14 09:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
A professional that worked in the game industry for 12 years, with a career that spans publishers, AAA development studios, and game consulting houses gives his opinion about the #Gamergate issue.


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #556856
12/10/14 07:28 AM
12/10/14 07:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
#GamerGate An Issue With Two Sides

GamerGate: Does Games Journalism Have a Liberal Bias Problem?

Another Thunderclap (Less than 3 days to go. A Campaign to raise awareness of the movement. Similar to Kickstarter but it uses your social connections as funds)


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #556925
13/10/14 09:54 AM
13/10/14 09:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363

Last edited by henryv; 13/10/14 09:57 AM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #556967
14/10/14 02:54 AM
14/10/14 02:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363

Last edited by henryv; 14/10/14 05:17 AM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #557057
15/10/14 03:33 AM
15/10/14 03:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #557082
15/10/14 03:22 PM
15/10/14 03:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363

Last edited by henryv; 16/10/14 04:39 AM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #557106
16/10/14 04:39 AM
16/10/14 04:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #557164
18/10/14 06:25 AM
18/10/14 06:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #557167
18/10/14 08:21 AM
18/10/14 08:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
#GamerGate: Destructoid, Corruption And Ruined Careers

TL;DR
- Allistair Pinsof is writing article about someone scamming IndieGogo for sex reassignment surgery
- Meanwhile she attempts suicide live on Twitch, author feels conflicted
- Normally helpful staff offer no help for him but give him the greenlight on no possible ethics issues
- Article drops; call for his head, send him death threats, threaten to boycott Indiegogo/Twitch
- Backlash causes Niero to have a change of heart, reprimands him for the article, no Twitter
- guy complains on Twitter
- Niero asks GJP what to do (GameJournoPros, see the my previous posts about it)
- People say fire him
- Allistair catches word of this, offers to resign if he can get a letter of rec
- Niero says he's suspended, refuses his resignation
- They try to work it out but Niero gives up
- Allistair says that firing him would be worse for both parties; he doesn't get letter of rec, employer open to wrongful termination lawsuit (theoretically)
- Allistair attempts to warn other Dtoid employees (notably Jim Sterling)
- Allistair's aunt, a mediator, steps in to help
- Niero acts like an a****** to her, fires Allistair, "see you in court"
- Niero and GJP blacklist Allistair, threatens to delete all his work and put 展ORST EMPLOYEE EVER DO NOT HIRE! on his byline if he speaks out
- Allistair finds out another former Dtoid writer Holly Green got her work deleted after being fired after allegations of sexual misconduct

Last edited by henryv; 18/10/14 10:02 AM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #557169
18/10/14 11:46 AM
18/10/14 11:46 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,129
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Online sleepy

Duchess of Gorgombert
vometia  Online Sleepy

Duchess of Gorgombert

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,129
The Frog & Hounds
Originally Posted by henryv

Meh, doesn't surprise me in the least. Although I find the Grauniad to be somewhat less annoying than some of the alternatives, I knew before even reading their coverage that it would immediately be appropriated and misrepresented according to one of their usual agendas.

I hasten to add that I'm somewhat on the fence about the whole thing... but I guess that's why I'm irritated about their like starting from a prepared conclusion and working backwards. Still, that's journalism for you, I suppose.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: vometia] #557225
20/10/14 05:45 AM
20/10/14 05:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by Vometia
Originally Posted by henryv

Meh, doesn't surprise me in the least. Although I find the Grauniad to be somewhat less annoying than some of the alternatives, I knew before even reading their coverage that it would immediately be appropriated and misrepresented according to one of their usual agendas.

I hasten to add that I'm somewhat on the fence about the whole thing... but I guess that's why I'm irritated about their like starting from a prepared conclusion and working backwards. Still, that's journalism for you, I suppose.


Thank you for the response. It's okay to be neutral. We're aiming for the corruption, but the media always push the misogyny narrative even from the start. I haven't verified myself about the truthfulness of that evidence unless the recipient of such email were to speak out in public which I doubt in the current circumstances (might get doxxed).

Just read about the internet censorship on another thread on this board. Guardian got easily manipulated by a marketing firm.

Anyways, additional links:

Memo and internal emails of Gawker Media employees

Reports about the recent threats
alternative: https://archive.today/vjDk9

Interview between pro-GG and anti-GG

Last edited by henryv; 20/10/14 06:43 AM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #557343
22/10/14 11:45 AM
22/10/14 11:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #557397
23/10/14 01:21 AM
23/10/14 01:21 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,129
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Online sleepy

Duchess of Gorgombert
vometia  Online Sleepy

Duchess of Gorgombert

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,129
The Frog & Hounds
I think the rather tawdry situation involving Pinsof is a good example of why I'm ambivalent about the whole thing. The situation he revealed was obviously wrong, but so was the way he set about it (that awful "I'm only telling the truth!" as justification taken to a sort of industrial scale) and again the way he was subsequently dealt with.

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three", it would seem. frown


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: vometia] #557450
23/10/14 09:57 PM
23/10/14 09:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by Vometia
I think the rather tawdry situation involving Pinsof is a good example of why I'm ambivalent about the whole thing. The situation he revealed was obviously wrong, but so was the way he set about it (that awful "I'm only telling the truth!" as justification taken to a sort of industrial scale) and again the way he was subsequently dealt with.

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three", it would seem. frown


Correct me if I interpret your wordings wrong. English is my second language. I disagree that it shouldn't be on an industrial scale if you meant by ethics/policy changes. If you meant otherwise, I agree with you. It should only focus on specific people. The problem is, more than a month has passed and it seems the industry isn't doing anything against these people or even changing their ethical standards for a clean discussion like what escapist did (although it shouldn't also be taken as a set to stone ethical standard). Leigh alexander for instance is still at large even after her ridiculous tweets. Being a journalist, every article you write will lose credibility if public's perception for you is bad. In my eyes, she's more of a liability than an asset.

Additionally and probably not related to what you're ambivalent about, take a look at this timeline. Corruption is at large since 12 years ago. Just recently, 40k user accounts was compromised, but Kotaku shrugged it off as being minimal.

I'm hoping from all this, developers stand up more regarding the issue. Escapist already did its reporting on developers affected by bad journalism.

Alternative review markets are also being promoted, such as Chritian Centered Gamer review site, for separating review on morality and game play aspects of a game.

Anyways, additional links:

Previous link was down. Here is an archived version of it:
https://archive.today/1mfMY

Journalists Created a "Culture of Fear" not Gamers

Incriminating Gawker Past Articles

This is how Gawker thinks of its advertisers

Rebuttal of the recent gawker article

Again, Intel's reason why it backed out from Gamasutra. In my point of view, it's just a business disassociating with a company under scrutiny/target of a consumer revolt. Media painting it as a misogynistic move. This was a week or two before mainstream media put this issue on the spotlight.


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: henryv] #557453
24/10/14 01:54 AM
24/10/14 01:54 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,129
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Online sleepy

Duchess of Gorgombert
vometia  Online Sleepy

Duchess of Gorgombert

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,129
The Frog & Hounds
Sorry, my wording was clumsy, which was rather inexcusable as I am actually English. But that doesn't seem to impede my ability to create rather tangled and impenetrable grammar at times.

Anyway, my comment was directed at Pinsof basically ruining a vulnerable person's life: yes, she did the wrong thing, but publicly outing her was irresponsible and dangerous and I don't consider someone to be fair game as a result of their wrongdoing. Sure, address that issue, but the response has to be appropriate and somewhat cautious, neither of which could be used to describe Pinsof's approach which could be seen as dangerously vindictive. I guess living in the UK where our press has a habit of ruining people's lives with a self-righteous disregard for the consequences, I take a dim view of that sort of thing.

I do have a particular interest in this particular case (though no connection with any of the people or organisations involved) which may colour my opinion somewhat, but what I'm seeing is a person who committed a serious misdeed by attempting to fraudulently obtain money; then a journalist who countered that by what I would consider a potentially even more serious misdeed that recklessly endangered her life; and to top it all off, his employer then continued the sequence of misdeeds by some apparent backroom shenanigans when deciding what to do with him.

But this refers to a very specific example; my main ambivalence to the GamerGate situation is that it seems it's now better known for being misappropriated by everyone with a soapbox to shout from and whatever it was originally about has been variously hijacked and misrepresented into oblivion.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Gaming Journalism or #Gamergate [Re: vometia] #557571
27/10/14 02:41 PM
27/10/14 02:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
henryv Offline OP

enthusiast
henryv  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by Vometia
Sorry, my wording was clumsy, which was rather inexcusable as I am actually English. But that doesn't seem to impede my ability to create rather tangled and impenetrable grammar at times.

Anyway, my comment was directed at Pinsof basically ruining a vulnerable person's life: yes, she did the wrong thing, but publicly outing her was irresponsible and dangerous and I don't consider someone to be fair game as a result of their wrongdoing. Sure, address that issue, but the response has to be appropriate and somewhat cautious, neither of which could be used to describe Pinsof's approach which could be seen as dangerously vindictive. I guess living in the UK where our press has a habit of ruining people's lives with a self-righteous disregard for the consequences, I take a dim view of that sort of thing.

I do have a particular interest in this particular case (though no connection with any of the people or organisations involved) which may colour my opinion somewhat, but what I'm seeing is a person who committed a serious misdeed by attempting to fraudulently obtain money; then a journalist who countered that by what I would consider a potentially even more serious misdeed that recklessly endangered her life; and to top it all off, his employer then continued the sequence of misdeeds by some apparent backroom shenanigans when deciding what to do with him.

But this refers to a very specific example; my main ambivalence to the GamerGate situation is that it seems it's now better known for being misappropriated by everyone with a soapbox to shout from and whatever it was originally about has been variously hijacked and misrepresented into oblivion.


I see what you mean. I think that "he" apologized to pinsof on whatever "he" have done. "He" didn't know that pinsof's career has been destroyed because of "his" act. I just didn't save that specific tweet on my file so I can't present you any evidence.

I somewhat agree with you that it has been hijacked/misrepresented into oblivion, but current discussion tells me that gamers supporting Gamergate are now keeping their heads into discussing the corruption/bad journalism issue or keeping themselves on track. The one oblivious to being a gamer, who doesn't even game at all, are somewhat brought up by the main stream media, and it changed the priorities for a little while.

That's how I see it anyway. You might have a different point of view from all this.

Anyways, other links:

Gawker from Adland

History of Gamergate in video format. A video focusing more on the corruption uncovered

The players and the played

Live stream regarding GG issues 10/24/14


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  ForkTong, Larian_QA, Lar_q, Lynn, Macbeth 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2