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So much hate everywhere. I hate it wink

Thanks Larian for trying to make Linux version happen. Even if you don't make it with the release before I'll finish it, I'll still be happy, because I'm thinking about benefits for the whole platform and Linux community, not only for myself. I'm happy when the alternative OS gets stronger, and it's getting stronger with every title.

I think some people should also realize that games on Linux do not have the same history of development like games on Windows have (yes, I think some people have problems with this, even if they don't know about it). Different systems mean different problems. Basic problems on Windows are already solved. Lots of basic problems on Linux are not solved yet, and everyone has to solve them by themselves. I understand that if a company is among the first companies entering a new platform, nobody can tell them that they failed, because they didn't have answers for everything before they even started.

Sometimes you have to start doing something in order to know what questions to ask, let alone answering them. It's normal. People who don't understand this probably don't have experience in doing anything at all wink.

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my god... a year after release and still no linux version. why did i even think for a minute you could pull this stunt of? fucking ridiculous, and fucking stupid of me to back you.

Last edited by eNTi; 20/04/15 07:49 PM.
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The release date was June 30th.
The Linux version was always set to start after the Mac version was done, it just took a lot longer than expected.

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Originally Posted by Raze

The release date was June 30th.
The Linux version was always set to start after the Mac version was done, it just took a lot longer than expected.


lol

Are you really serious? Sorry dude, but you are just a fanboy. But it is OK for me if you are willing to spend your bucks for nothing. I do not and I bet that I'm not alone which will never ever fund a Larian game.

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Kickstarter is not a pre-order system. It is not immune to the normal development process. If you are not willing to accept the normal development process, you should not back anything on kickstarter.

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I've got some thoughts I'd like to express, so I'll start with a quote from the indefatigable Raze. By the way, Raze, I have to ask do you play games on a Linux distro?

[quote=Raze]
Kickstarter is not a pre-order system. It is not immune to the normal development process. If you are not willing to accept the normal development process, you should not back anything on kickstarter. [/quote]

Certainly not a pre-order system, understood. It does however reflect upon the developer the "promises" delivered and not delivered. If developers think that they can just promise things that the community wants, get funded and then put major things like Linux support on the back burner, fine. I don't think Larians next community funding campaign will work so well next time. Maybe Larian execs think that their success will propel their funding for their next project despite how they treat the community, that seems like an unfortunate attitude, regardless.

I did not get on the kickstarter for this game as I missed the campaign, but I bought a couple copies on Steam during a sale knowing that there was already a delay. I have played many of my favorite games through wine, but fortunately a lot of great developers have made real ports of their games reality or have had Linux support from pre-release. Notable examples are Portal 2, Torchlight I and II, Borderlands II, Tiny Keep, Fight the Dragon, Mount and Blade II, Planet Explorers and Planetary Annihilation. I've not had much luck running D:OS from wine unfortunately.
It seems that it's certainly not impossible to make a good port of a game to Linux given the 1000+ games, Indie and AAA available already. Many of these games did not make promises of Linux support during their development and some made a port long after release. I think this is a far better way to go than make a statement about supporting an entire and growing platform and then releasing on Windows while the promised ports are just pushed aside. I think it's a very clear indication on Larians priorities to see their Linux port still unreleased. Choosing a middleware without clear Linux support indicates that Larian had little regard for for the Linux port from the beginning. Would they even consider choosing a middleware with questionable Windows support and then use that as an excuse for delaying the release on that platform!?

As Larian has stated:

[quote]The Linux version was being built on an old branch but ran out of synch with the new branch where plenty of improvements were happening and so we decided to stop integrating it in the old branch and instead focus on the new branch only.[/quote]

At that point it looks like Linux support abandoned, because:

[quote]If we wouldn't do that, then Linux would only have been supported on the old branch, and that didn't make a lot of sense going forward, especially since we wanted it to be part of our core engine. Supporting both branches wouldn't have worked since our Linux team is small.
[/quote]
Ok the Linux team is small and they stop working on the old branch, what about this "new" branch?

[quote]All this wouldn't have been such a big problem if not for us starting to doing something *cool* on the new branch that quickly ran out of hand because we really liked it. So much work ended up being done that the new branch became a lot bigger than we'd anticipated and so it's all taking longer than we thought. [/quote]

So how was their small Linux team involved in this "*cool*" (so cool that it breaks other platforms is OK?) thing in the new branch? Seems like not at all, until the community starts asking questions.

[quote]The long Linux delay is unfortunate but we think a lot of players are going to be really surprised and happy with what we're working on, and hopefully we'll be able to continue to support Linux over different games as a result of the effort it's taking now.[/quote]

Larian thinks "a lot of players are going to be really surprised and happy with what we're working on". Do they really think a lot of players run Linux and are worth the effort they now say they are putting in? If so, then why the back-burner, afterthought development? If not, who are they talking to, happy Windows users who are playing right now?
I think the only surprise thus far is the unfortunate lack of a Linux release that is counter to all that Larian as promised.

Divinity is just a game for me, fortunately, and nothing I or anyone else really needs to have a happy life, oh except for maybe those who work for Larian. They already have my money, good for them. For my money, the only value so far seems to be in posting this rant, I did not really need to buy the game to post this anyways.

Now that Larian has made an yet another example of itself about how a studio can make big promises to get money, the community gets some value out of Larian to solidly reference when Larian tries to start a new project. Maybe Larian will get some additional press about being the new [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nukem_Forever]Duke Nukem Forever[/url], Though 15 years is a tough record to break, should the Linux port of Divinity Original Sin ever be released.

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BTW, I get:
Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /home/2/4/1/1026/1026/public_html/forums/libs/html.inc.php on line 801 when I attempted (repeatably) to post my last comment with formatting.

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UBBCode is disabled for new user accounts, to discourage spam (no clickable links, etc). Separately, there is an issue editing long posts, which I've been meaning to look into. I think if you move half your first post to the second it should allow you to edit it without timing out.

I do not currently play games on Linux. I have dual booted in the past, but in practice didn't boot into Linux very frequently. I'm seriously considering building a dedicated Linux computer soon, though (how soon depending on whether or not I have any money after I do my taxes and replace a monitor that died a couple weeks ago).


get funded and then put major things like Linux support on the back burner

It was put on the back burner, along with Mac, before the kickstarter. It was only once the Kickstarter goal was met that Larian officially confirmed there would be Mac and Linux versions, and Mac development was started again. The Mac release was expected to be with or not too long after the Windows release, with the Linux version to start after the Mac version was done (which was expected to be not much extra work at that point).


despite how they treat the community

You say that like the delays were a choice.


I think it's a very clear indication on Larians priorities to see their Linux port still unreleased.

If you were betting your company on the success of a game, and almost all of your development experience was with Windows, which platform would you prioritize first?


Choosing a middleware without clear Linux support indicates that Larian had little regard for for the Linux port from the beginning.

You mean as oppose to just having no experience developing for Linux? If Larian had little regard for the Linux port, they wouldn't have made the tools to replace the middleware assumed to exist, but dropped the port or used Wine.


Would they even consider choosing a middleware with questionable Windows support and then use that as an excuse for delaying the release on that platform!?

The Windows version was delayed, multiple times. In fact, Larian delayed it as much as possible (scrambling to get a loan to pay off another loan that a bank getting cold feet called in, and deferring paying taxes, then getting caught by the government changing that policy).


At that point it looks like Linux support abandoned, because:

The last couple game updates were also in an 'old' branch, with specific changes and bug fixes being moved from the main branch. After the 1.0.252 update, everyone moved over to working on the most recent set of code.


what about this "new" branch?

As of mid-March, the ETA was "some months".


So how was their small Linux team involved in this "*cool*" (so cool that it breaks other platforms is OK?) thing in the new branch?

It isn't a case of breaking platforms, but of how much time it would take to support both. Would you want the 1.0.252 Linux version around the time of the next Window and Mac update, and then another delay of "some months" while the engine was updated again with the new code? Unfortunately, updating the Linux engine to code that is already outdated isn't practical.


Though 15 years is a tough record to break

Year long delays are quite common in game development, though.

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Raze, thank you for taking time to concisely address my concerns. I do hope you take the plunge into some Linux based distro and are the happier for it. The reason why I really hope for more games for Linux are that I never want a reason to go back to dealing with Windows as I had for more than 10 years (though I must do so at work).

If I may quote you again:
Quote
It isn't a case of breaking platforms, but of how much time it would take to support both. Would you want the 1.0.252 Linux version around the time of the next Window and Mac update, and then another delay of "some months" while the engine was updated again with the new code? Unfortunately, updating the Linux engine to code that is already outdated isn't practical.


Does this mean that Windows Linux and Mac versions will be released concurrently with Larians "new" system? Should I expect the Linux port to remain on the back-burner?

Quote
If you were betting your company on the success of a game, and almost all of your development experience was with Windows, which platform would you prioritize first?


If I was even thinking of the possibility releasing a Linux port along with a Windows and Mac version (such as a kickstarter goal), I would make sure my entire development team was ready to take such a task seriously or just make no such mention in a stretch goal. Putting a proportionally small number of Linux developers on my important game and expecting them to make magic happen to work around code that is developed almost entirely with Windows in mind would seem to be a waste of money and time, especially if time is precious as it is before a first release date.

I think if Larian has a chance of making things right with Linux users, it's in the update you mention. I did finally get the game working in wine following advice from the WineHQ community, but unfortunately, it just makes me hope for the Linux port all the more.

You have an understanding of how Larian works and what challenges it faces, many of those that are never otherwise exposed to the outside world. I thank you again for your candor and time.







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I would assume the plan is to have the next update ready for Windows, Mac and Linux at the same time, if at all possible, but I don't know what the projected timeframe is for updating the Linux version of the engine, or the update itself (except a rough idea).
Even if there is some lag with the Linux release, it is currently being worked on, so isn't on the back burner.

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@Race: Thank you for your detailed information. To be honest I'm also one of those unhappy linux users. Actually you always feel a bit sad if you bag a campaign for their promised OS support, but after it get funded you feel like a 2nd class person - sometimes the support is dropped after the funding, somtimes the linux support is being realised much later on.

To save money and time it's always a good idea to have ONE code base from the very beginning. This also what the devs on Valves the Steam Dev days say.

Of course I do understand that it's always hard to start something from the scratch. Therfor I do appreciate that Larian is going to support linux! Since the enginge can handle linux soon, I really do hope future games will have linux support as well. And I also hope they'll have that around the time the windows version is being released.

I do also understand that 90 % of the revenue is made by windows users, 8-9 % from Mac and only 1-2 % - but the linux market is growing! In the meantime some publishers / game studios mentioned that 1 % is allready enough to pay off for porting their games to linux. This is why you can see all (actually NOT all) those nice indie and AAA titles out there being realeased for linux nowadays as well.

So in conclusion: Thanks for the updates! Thanks for the efforts! Please keep linux on the road maps for future games. But please, please try to not put us as much behind as it happened this time - otherwise the GNU/LINUX community will loose there trust in what Larian promises and won't support future campaigns I guess.

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As long as new features are being added, there needs to at least be separate 'release' and 'main' code branches whenever an update is released and there are still things being worked on. Especially shortly after release, there were multiple smaller patches released with bug fixes or minor updates, while larger updates (like the companion DLC, etc) were being worked on. Even the last update, with the compressed save format, Steam cloud support enabled, etc, could not have been released without separate code branches, since work was ongoing with the harder difficulty mode and new skills, etc.

The next games will be built with the same engine, so once the Linux version is brought in line with the current Windows and Mac versions, future engine updates can be done concurrently.

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The middleware you needed to write is going to be open sourced, right? ;-)

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Originally Posted by Gunnar_g
The middleware issue you needed to write is going to be open sourced, right? ;-)

The middleware is about the sound, isn't it? You wouldn't be the first studio experiecing exactly that kind of problem. wink

@Raze: Sorry for not being so clear about that point. I didn't mean you should have one code base for all versions of the game. Of course you do need different branches if you have a release with a lot of new functionality being added.
What I ment is that it's more handy to have one branch that should be able to be compiled on every OS from the very beginning of the developement progress. That also makes sure releases could be at the same date. In this case also MacOS and Linux users are happy to buy early access etc. as well! Extra money for you. wink

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weasel words.. nothing more.
working on upgrade, now a new game will be revealed..
just no priority on the promise they made.. first and last backed game from Larian for me !

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Having, and hiring, writers, artists, designers, scripters, etc, to work on pre-production for other projects does not take anything away from the programmers working on the Linux port of the engine.

There isn't anything going to be revealed about a new game until E3.

The Linux version was always going to be started after the Mac version was done. The amount of time and work required was much longer than anticipated. That is part of the development process.

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While I can understand the frustrations with the delays, some people just don't understand that software development isn't always an a-b-c progression. Sometimes it's two steps forward, three steps back.

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So Any news on a date for the release ?

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Originally Posted by Jito463
While I can understand the frustrations with the delays, some people just don't understand that software development isn't always an a-b-c progression. Sometimes it's two steps forward, three steps back.


Being a developer myself I do understand that, however it's almost a year since launch. That, plus the total lack of info on the matter (Razes' replies in this thread sheds no light on the progress) is what's causing the frustration.

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Niltugor;
The last ETA (of "some months") was from mid-March, but there will be more information announced soon. A teaser was posted on Facebook and Instagram, and it was already stated information about the next projects would be revealed at E3, so that leaves the next update and Linux version.

Quote
Dragon's scale and witch's hair,
Take a peek soon, if you dare.
Tooth of wolf and impish blood,
Something wicked this way comes... #divinity #originalsin #larianstudios



Faceplanter;
"total lack of info"? If calls for new updates started a week after the last update (minor complaints immediately, of course), 2 weeks later it was completely outdated, and 2 months later it doesn't even exist, is it surprising that Larian would rather focus on actually working on the update than posting progress reports (which would still get criticized anyway)?

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