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Originally Posted by Stabbey
HURRRRR I'M A DURRRRR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computing_platform

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wilfully
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obtuse

And for reference, yes, there have been games hurt by being PC/Mac "multiplatform", but it's not an issue these days, and it was never a major issue in the past, because the Mac had no games.


Originally Posted by Urza
I actually just created an account despite never having played the game (Currently plotting about purchasing) to let you know that you sound kind of crazy on here Luckmann.

First you suggest killing 95% of the world population? Even if this is sarcastic (which it does not seem like) it is both in bad taste and quite unfitting for intelligent discourse.


95% so that the species has a future, because at this rate the only ones capable of intelligent discourse are going to kill themselves due to sheer frustration.

Originally Posted by Urza
Second you claim that no PC game can ever be good while having a console port.
Strawman. I said no such thing. A game can still be good. Just not as good as it should be. Good is, after all, subjective.

Originally Posted by Urza
While I agree with you that console ports scare me and ruin many games (DA:I for me) this is an incredibly over exaggerating statement. XCOM, Portal 2, TF 2 all have console ports and are all this outstanding PC games. In fact I would argue that turn based games tend to port the best.
Not only could all of them have been better, but I think I can count all turn-based games that have been successfully ported (using 'successfully' in the loosest way possible) on my one hand.

XCOM is an excellent suggestion of a good game that could've been amazing, but suffered extensively due to consolization. The controls are terrible for a PC, with sticky-selections, and jerks around in just that kind of way only console games do.

Originally Posted by Urza
Third even if all of your arguments are 100% valid the way in which you convey them is incredibly confrontational and disrespectful. Despite repeated attempts by individuals such as Joram to remind you that the fact that we are discussing a vide game on internet board means none of our life's are all that terrible.
To try to boil an issue down to "hurr it's not big enough to worry about" is the last defence of the desperate, as in "I didn't care about the argument anyway".

Originally Posted by Urza
Life is short don't waste it being angry. Lets see how the EE is and if its bad we don't come back, no reasons to get to excited before it comes out.


I think this really underlines your tone of empty superiority and false privilege, in that not only does the issues not concern you - and therefore they somehow shouldn't concern me, or simply be dismissed because it's not 'worth' worrying about - but you also suggest playing the waiting game, which only ever benefits those that are unaffected by any change in policy or approach.

No reason to get excited before it comes out. Let's see how EE is. Well that's good for you. Excellent. It doesn't matter to you, and when the EE hits, you'll be able to judge. Congratulations.

Some of us won't.

Last edited by Luckmann; 21/05/15 04:03 PM.
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Deleting a bookmark is easy, you know. And I trust some people are with me when I say we wouldn't miss you.


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Originally Posted by EinTroll
Deleting a bookmark is easy, you know. And I trust some people are with me when I say we wouldn't miss you.


Ditto.

This goes back to the whole 125 IQ thing, really. Remember, down the road, not across the street.

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"empty superiority"
Should that be reserved for the true PC elite, not anyone who may have sympathies for those unclean console people?

"false privilege"
You're the one claiming that no matter how many people the engine improvements and switch to DX 11 on Windows may help, the fact that it may not run on your current system means that Larian has complete disdain for everyone who bought D:OS, and are releasing a new game that is "unusable".
Apparently you were fine with the original release, though, despite the minimum requirements putting out of the playable realm for some systems.

If the EE is going to suffer so much for the existence of a console version (don't bother waiting to get any first looks at E3, or anything), why are you so upset you may not immediately be able to play it?

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Okay, Luckmann has proved himself to be an idiot not worth arguing with. He can never get the concept of "different versions" through his thick skull, nor can he understand that features from a finished PC version will not magically, automatically be stripped out of a PC version when a separate console version is made.

Glad we've cleared that up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pot
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In order:
1) Killing 95% of the species based purely on IQ would first of all set us back to a world population of between 1000-2000 BC with a set back to our society relatively similar in proportion. Second it would not really solve your frustration issue because intelligent individuals are just as likely to be deluded about there omnipotence as anyone else.

2) "There is not a single multiplatform game in the history of gaming that didn't suffer due to being, well, multiplatform."
To me a game being good and suffering are mutually exclusive although for the purposes of this we will assume they are not. Can you tell me where Portal 2 or TF 2 suffered for having console ports? And "good is, after all, subjective" is just as much Reductio ad absurdum as anything I have said is straw man. By that argument any single game could be good no matter how crappy just by virtue of being a video game and modern marvel. I think we can safely equate good with both enjoyable and successful to/with a large segment of the population.

3) Also I find it hard to say that XCOM has suffered when it is an incredible game with smooth gameplay and outstanding replayability that is still strong several years after release. It jerks around almost never and both play and cut scenes are smooth.

4) I absolutely care about the argument but I am trying to indicate that it is not worth contemplating mass murder/genocide for. I think that is a fair argument to make. Why is it necessary to be angry and hateful in order to discuss important issues? Your whole argument here is straw man.

5) What empty superiority and false privilege? How does it not concern either of us? It concerns both of us however that is not the same as saying we have control over it. At this point they have enough into the production based on their comments that its going to be released, and since it's going to be free we don't even really have the option of using money as speech. We will just have to not purchase further products/versions of the game on the console/DLC if we are unhappy with the game.

6) This is the most valid of your arguments, you can't play EE when it drops and the game you currently enjoy will not be supported when it comes out. However this is a business decision by the company about whether or not a large enough number are effected to justify holding back updating the engine. What exactly are your system specs btw? How hard is it going to be to get you to 11 so you can play? I feel like it's just a modern version of windows and a graphics card that supports it? So ~250-300$? Rather than focusing on the negative why not try and find a way to solve the problem?

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Originally Posted by Raze
"empty superiority"
Should that be reserved for the true PC elite, not anyone who may have sympathies for those unclean console people?

"false privilege"
You're the one claiming that no matter how many people the engine improvements and switch to DX 11 on Windows may help, the fact that it may not run on your current system means that Larian has complete disdain for everyone who bought D:OS, and are releasing a new game that is "unusable".
Apparently you were fine with the original release, though, despite the minimum requirements putting out of the playable realm for some systems.


You're all about the strawmen, aren't you? It is clear that they don't care, and the odds that it'll "help" people.. oh please, you cannot possibly be so computer illiterate as to believe that it's going to help anyone.

You are also boiling this down to a "new release", which is not the issue. Had it been a new release, the issue would've been different - annoying, but alright, there's a lot of games that have ridiculous requirements, after all. But it's not. It's a patch that grew into an overhaul that is being presented as a new release. That patch was promised for a long time, and suddenly it's gone "Nuh-uh, not for you" and been adapted for consoles.

Unless you want to claim that D:OS is still getting it's patch. But.. we all know it's not.

Originally Posted by Raze
If the EE is going to suffer so much for the existence of a console version (don't bother waiting to get any first looks at E3, or anything), why are you so upset you may not immediately be able to play it?


D:OS being adapted for consoles is bad, but ultimately it could still be a good game - certainly and undeniably a worse game than it should've or could've been, but still a good game. The problems of consolization is secondary to being lied to and dumped on by money-grubbing weasels.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Okay, Luckmann has proved himself to be an idiot not worth arguing with. He can never get the concept of "different versions" through his thick skull, nor can he understand that features from a finished PC version will not magically, automatically be stripped out of a PC version when a separate console version is made.

Glad we've cleared that up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pot
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/calling
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kettle
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/black


The sad thing here is really that you still delude yourself to think that magically, a game isn't affected at all when being developed on multiple platforms.

It's an issue of the lowest common denominator. If you truly believe that there's going to be anything in the PC version that will not make it into the console version due to the constraints of the latter, you are either intellectually dishonest, or easily the dumbest and most ignorant person I've seen on the internet that is still capable of cobbling together a coherent sentence.

Truly, it is a wonder you can breathe without drowning in your own saliva, let alone mash enough neurons together to slap your hand against the keyboard.



Originally Posted by Urza
In order:
1) Killing 95% of the species based purely on IQ would first of all set us back to a world population of between 1000-2000 BC with a set back to our society relatively similar in proportion. Second it would not really solve your frustration issue because intelligent individuals are just as likely to be deluded about there omnipotence as anyone else.

2) "There is not a single multiplatform game in the history of gaming that didn't suffer due to being, well, multiplatform."
To me a game being good and suffering are mutually exclusive although for the purposes of this we will assume they are not. Can you tell me where Portal 2 or TF 2 suffered for having console ports? And 敵ood is, after all, subjective is just as much Reductio ad absurdum as anything I have said is straw man. By that argument any single game could be good no matter how crappy just by virtue of being a video game and modern marvel. I think we can safely equate good with both enjoyable and successful to/with a large segment of the population.

3) Also I find it hard to say that XCOM has suffered when it is an incredible game with smooth gameplay and outstanding replayability that is still strong several years after release. It jerks around almost never and both play and cut scenes are smooth.

4) I absolutely care about the argument but I am trying to indicate that it is not worth contemplating mass murder/genocide for. I think that is a fair argument to make. Why is it necessary to be angry and hateful in order to discuss important issues? Your whole argument here is straw man.

5) What empty superiority and false privilege? How does it not concern either of us? It concerns both of us however that is not the same as saying we have control over it. At this point they have enough into the production based on their comments that it痴 going to be released, and since it痴 going to be free we don稚 even really have the option of using money as speech. We will just have to not purchase further products/versions of the game on the console/DLC if we are unhappy with the game.

6) This is the most valid of your arguments, you can稚 play EE when it drops and the game you currently enjoy will not be supported when it comes out. However this is a business decision by the company about whether or not a large enough number are effected to justify holding back updating the engine. What exactly are your system specs btw? How hard is it going to be to get you to 11 so you can play? I feel like it痴 just a modern version of windows and a graphics card that supports it? So ~250-300$? Rather than focusing on the negative why not try and find a way to solve the problem?


1) There is no reason to believe that just because you set the world population back to ~365 000 000, we'll somehow magically be set back societally to a standard of ~1000-2000 BC (which, for reference, was a mere 40-80 mil). While it is entirely true that a high IQ is no guarantee there won't be a whole range of other deficiencies, it is certainly a better situation than today, the goal being to get rid of the worst of the low-brow knuckle-draggers that insists on drooling their way through Walmart on scooters between their bouts of beating their head across a keyboard.

2) I don't see how it can be mutually exclusive; something can be good, but still have been better, had it not been saddled with a ball and chain around it's ankles. The most obvious one for the given games is similarly the most irrelevant one; graphically. It's par for the course for multiplatform games to be limited to the architecture of the worst-performing console.

What else had to be cut is hard to tell, given the simplistic nature of these games - RPG:s are a different beast entirely, and it's unfair to compare the constraints of an FPS on consoles to constraints of an RPG on consoles; nonetheless, it's there, however minor.

3) Post-purchase rationalization? I can't think of any other reason to say that, other than inexperience with gaming, maybe. You only need to go to the base screen to notice how terrible the panning is, and view any menu to see how everything is organized in a sequential, "click here, click here, click here, click here, click here, confirm"-manner that is alien to a well-produced desktop UI.

4) Nope. Your argument boiled down to promoting the irrelevance of the issue. I actually had to look it up, but that is a fallacy of relative privation.

5) Well, not having control and not having a voice are different things. All we can do may be to voice our concerns and make it known that Larian aren't to be trusted anymore (which I genuinely think is sad, considering that they're not the first promising studio to degenerate in this manner, and D:OS showed definite promise for the future - my enthusiasm was obvious unwarranted and premature) and, as you say, refrain from purchasing further products of the game (and make sure that others doesn't, or support alternative sources that does not endow Larian with undeserved monetary wealth).

6) The problem, as far as I'm concerned, is Larian, and I'm unfortunately incapable of solving that problem anytime soon (which brings us back to point #1). If I were capable of replacing my old (overclocked) GeForce 8800 GTX, I would've done it 6 years ago. Even if I somehow magically did have the funds, priority 1 is still to get my GF a new computer after her laptop bricked just above a year ago, so she isn't dependant on my desktop. Current funds in the teabox: -2400 USD (yup, that's a minus; it used to be 1000 USD, but then our only source of income decided to give us a golden shower and my parents had to shell out rent for four months.

So yeah, that's a problem not getting solved either way.

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Just chiming in:

Could we please all try to keep the discussion polite without any personal attacks and advocating mass murder?

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1) First I apologize I moved a decimal place short it is ~375 Mil not ~37.5Mil so that puts us about 1200AD instead. And while there is no reason to believe we will magically set back to that year it is reasonable to expect massive societal setbacks. Much of what society relies on cannot be reliably support with that few individuals (without building the infrastructure for that specific number) Not to mention that on average people would lose 95% of their friends/family. (Obviously it would not be this extreme as IQ is correlated with genetics and social groupings but 125 is still a high bar so almost all would lose many if not most) The psychological impact of that cannot be ignored. Finally lets not forget it is morally reprehensible?

2) Again your argument only holds in the extreme. There are situations where having a ball and chain around your ankles could be good but for the majority of people if you asked them simply weather that is a good or bad situation they would say that it is bad. In reference to graphics I have a hard time accepting it as a legitimate argument against multiplatform games when you cant play your games on max settings anyways?
I wouldn't call any of those games simple except potentially in the concepts driving them and I believe that simpler concepts is something PC gaming badly needs as opposed to unnecessary clutter. And while FPS and RPG constraints may not be the same previously the scope of discussion had covered all multiplatform games so I felt they were germane to the discussion.

3) Nested menus are both an efficient way of displaying and something that originated on PCs. And I don't think its post purchase rationalization when many individuals have hundreds of hours into the game. I think that's a pretty solid indicator of a genuinely good game. And I am not sure where you are clicking all these times? The game displays all main 澱ase locations and in each lets you click whatever 殿ction you want to take and the approve it? How would you propose to change it if it was only for PC?

4) No its not a fallacy of relative privation. It would be if I said 展ho cares about this game someone is trying to kill 95% of the population. Instead I am saying 泥on't you think trying to kill 95% of the population over this game is a little extreme My argument is that your response is disproportionate for the issue at hand which I stand by.

5) But you cant 適now they are not to be trusted anymore. You can strongly infer it from your evidence but you could be wrong. So why not hold judgment until there is some proof? Its not going to change their actions in releasing the enhanced edition and its not going to be taken seriously unless it has imperial evidence and business implications which it cannot until the game releases.

6) So you need 80-150$ to max your computer capable of playing the game? Why not focus on finding that money and money to pay back your debts instead of spending an incredible amount of time being angry about it? The PC community is actually incredibly generous there is actually a not insignificant chance you could get a new card capable of 11 free if you were less confrontational and full of vitriol

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Originally Posted by Luckmann
The sad thing here is really that you still delude yourself to think that magically, a game isn't affected at all when being developed on multiple platforms.


Quote
when being developed on multiple platforms.


Quote
developed on multiple platforms.


And here, right here is where that pesky neuron rattling around in there just refuses to fire.

D:OS was not developed on multiple platforms.

D:OS was developed on Windows and PORTED to Mac, and after an egregious delay is being PORTED to Linux, and is being PORTED to XBONE and PS4.

"Developed" is NOT the same thing as "Ported".

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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Arne
If it did not, Larian should give the backers what they paid for.

Kickstarter is not a pre-order system, and does not make games immune to the normal development process. Kickstarter backers are not paying for a game with a checklist of features, they are backing the game so development can continue, with the stated goals and plans; sometimes those plans do not work out, sometimes more things are added that was the original intent.


You maybe misunderstood me. I merely tried to find out whether there was any serious promises that actual money was being paid for (In hopes that they get implemented) and that were not being implemented so people do actually have a semi valid reason to complain. I do, of course, understand that kickstarter money is "risky investment/venture capital" wink For example, Luckman complained that he doesn't get an update that runs on his system. So, I simply suspected the kickstarter stated certain system requirements or the update might contain some features that supporters actually paid for, for example a fully voiced game.


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Originally Posted by Luckmann
You're all about the strawmen, aren't you? It is clear that they don't care, and the odds that it'll "help" people.. oh please, you cannot possibly be so computer illiterate as to believe that it's going to help anyone.

That was exactly the issue Larian was faced with as the content of the update grew. From the blog post The why of our third secret project:
Quote
And so we started, first with small things intended to be included in the N-th patch, but soon with more drastic things that couldn稚 be included that easily. Then, even more drastic things made it to our tasklist that conflicted with the "patch protocol", a series of rules that ensure story changes don稚 break savegame compatibility and would therefore only be present in new games.

You believe the 'caring' thing to do would be to reject any changes that would be good for the game but preclude a patch. So essentially; 'here is a patch with a couple changes; we thought about graphical improvements, engine improvements and fixes to the story, but we care so much we didn't do any of that'.
Larian eventually decided it would be better for the game to do those things, and better for most players, despite the unfortunate change in system requirements which would mean some would not immediately be able to play the EE (they would still get a copy, to play when they can upgrade).

Are you under the impression that nobody has had any performance problems with D:OS, that multithreading could help with? Why does DX 11 exist if there are no benefits over DX 9?
Is nobody going to appreciate the changes to the story and dialogue, that flesh out the companions, and change the ending?


Originally Posted by Luckmann
If you truly believe that there's going to be anything in the PC version that will not make it into the console version due to the constraints of the latter, you are either intellectually dishonest, or easily the dumbest and most ignorant person I've seen on the internet that is still capable of cobbling together a coherent sentence.

You've been arguing the opposite, that the mere existence of the console version would effect the PC (and means Larian doesn't care about PC users, who are such "money-grubbing weasels" that they are giving it to everyone who own D:OS for free on PC).
Isn't that a good thing, not to restrict the PC version to console features?


Originally Posted by Luckmann
Even if I somehow magically did have the funds, priority 1 is still to get my GF a new computer after her laptop bricked just above a year ago, so she isn't dependant on my desktop.

People have been out of work much longer, gone deeper in debt and managed to recover.
Do you not know anyone that periodically upgrades their computer, who may have spare card around?

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Originally Posted by Luckmann
It's painfully evident that you actually never played D2 or Starcraft on console. If you want a better example, look at Diablo 3, which was actually intended as multiplatform from the beginning (which many fans called Blizzard on long before it was announced; and it wasn't announced precisely because people knew that it compromises development).

There is not a single multiplatform game in the history of gaming that didn't suffer due to being, well, multiplatform. You say it is simply not known for certain, but experience has taught us otherwise. Even under the best of circumstances, the best developers can do is to attempt to obfuscate the fact by making it less obvious what was compromised.

But at the end of the day, what gets to me the most is that Larian has no trouble pissing in the face of their fans after promising an extensive patch for months, but in reality adapting the game for consoles and then go "Nuh-uh", releasing a new game instead, which, of course, is unusable. At the end of the day, was the inventory system of Skyrim bad because of consoles, or were it just bad? We all know it's the former, but the apologists and peasantry can easily argue that it was just badly designed.

And we see this time and time again, whether it's bad controls or entire features that had to be cut because it was impossible to make it fit in a console UI. Because yeah, sure, D:OS:EE will get two separate UI:s, but you bet that if there's a feature that won't work well with the console UI, it's going to get binned for both versions, whether it would've worked with the PC UI or not (and face it, it would've; that's the difference, anything works or can be made to work on PC).

When you're promised a stellar patch, it's really dishonest to make it into a new game that, whoops, you can't play. But uh, you can play the unpatched game, so that's fine.

This is Grade A douchery worthy of Electronic Arts and paints Swen Vincke and his cohorts as nothing short of crooks.

You should be a politician, you're quite good at spinning things to fit your point of view. Let me address a few of your points here.

- First off, you say it's evident that I've never played D2 or Starcraft. On the first, you would be correct, on a technicality. D2 never came to console. I was talking about the ORIGINAL Diablo.
- Second, you have no idea whether or not I have played the console versions or not (I have for what my internet word is worth) so trying to discredit me with this is quite a leap here.

- Third (and bold for emphasis on this point) Your argument again again throughout this thread has been how much the PC version is going to suffer and how much Larian is showing they don't care about their original PC fanbase by porting the game over to consoles. I've provided two great examples of how porting a game to consoles DID NOT AFFECT THE PC VERSIONS AT ALL. I can't put enough stress here on this. These games had great PC versions before their ports. They had great PC versions after their ports. In fact the PC version of Starcraft GOT AN EXPANSION (read: even more content). Did Skyrim and Diablo 3 suffer because of their console counterparts? Most definitely and it has been acknowledged by the community, but there are several other VERY successful PC games that were brought to consoles without sacrificing their PC counterparts; the original Doom, Half-Life, Portal, and Minecraft if I must name a few more for you.

You were promised a HUGE patch for the original game. But Larian did you one better. If they had released this as a patch like they originally intended, they would have broken your game (since the new requirements were not met by you). Instead, they released it as a completely new game. This allows you to continue to play the older game (thus keeping all your saved content and what not) while also giving you the potential to play the new version with all it's benefits.

Unless you are currently working at Larian, or have some sort of insider information into their design process, YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW THE CONSOLE VERSION WILL AFFECT THE PC VERSION. How you can compare Larian to EA or crooks is beyond me. Larian isn't giving previous users the new game for a discount, they are giving it FOR FREE. They spent a lot of money to improve the game with the potential of not making another penny on the new version (they could sell 0 new copies). That certainly doesn't sound like a crook to me.

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Originally Posted by Drewgamer

You were promised a HUGE patch for the original game. But Larian did you one better. If they had released this as a patch like they originally intended, they would have broken your game (since the new requirements were not met by you). Instead, they released it as a completely new game. This allows you to continue to play the older game (thus keeping all your saved content and what not) while also giving you the potential to play the new version with all it's benefits.

Unless you are currently working at Larian, or have some sort of insider information into their design process, YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW THE CONSOLE VERSION WILL AFFECT THE PC VERSION. How you can compare Larian to EA or crooks is beyond me. Larian isn't giving previous users the new game for a discount, they are giving it FOR FREE. They spent a lot of money to improve the game with the potential of not making another penny on the new version (they could sell 0 new copies). That certainly doesn't sound like a crook to me.


Indeed !!

@Luckmann : please, go playing further the current D:OS version and ENJOY !! smile

Guess: I can't play on my laptop the Enhanced Edition, then I really will be disappointed !! And I'll openly jealous when I read all the new impressions/experiences other gamers have with the EE version !!
Yes, to be honest, I'll be jealous, but ALSO very very happy for them if the EE turned out to be much better Gem !! wink

Then bad luck for me I can't play the EE ... !
But I'm still very happy when playing D:OS smile !!!


On 7th of february 2015 : I start a new adventure in the Divinity world of Original Sin,
it's a Fantastic Freaking Fabulous Funny ... it's my All Time Favorite One !
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Originally Posted by Luckmann

Originally Posted by gGeo
You have received an offer of significant upgrade for further re-playability.
No.
Yes Period
Originally Posted by Luckmann

Originally Posted by gGeo
(One of my PCs is a CoreDuo Intel 6420+2GRam+Radeon3780+W7/64bit its about 10 years old hardware. Sometimes I have played the current version on it - it goes pretty good. I am sure it will run EE too. )
No, it won't. But you think so, because you have no idea what you're talking about and it's painful to watch you run your mouth in ignorance.
I wish your knowledge of IT is high as your self-confidence and arrogance. Unfortunately is not.
Your information are utterly wrong but your loud voice could spoil other people.

I was always curious why devs dont come to forum often to gather good ideas. Discuss customers. When I see your performance, I can understand that they are not allowed to go here.

In the devs shoes I would find your place of living based on IP address then payed 3 street boys to teach you manners by piece of water pipe.

Different students need different type of teacher. :-]

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From the article:
"Vincke: The multiplayer is right at the core of the game痴 being and it has a huge impact on the singleplayer experience as well. It痴 the essence of pen and paper RPGs, right? You don稚 play them on your own."

Exactly! I never understand when people say rpg games should be a single player affair when it was always about coop. The very foundations of the rpg are based on cooperation.

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Lack of friends :p

Not having someone to play with is a valid enough reason to want single player. As an option, of course.


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Lack of friends with the same interest. I really wish I had some friends who liked rpgs but mine either don't like games or not the same type of games. So it's single player for me.

Joined: Aug 2008
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2008
I think it's all about options : a game should allow coop while letting single play also

Joined: Feb 2011
member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Is the Enhanced Edition going to address bullshit balancing issues like:

Zalemk'Ath uses Poisonous Flurry: Deals 585 Poison and 267 Fire Damage killing ANY character in one attack.

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