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Based on the kickstarter update 11 where we heard some details on the single player experience, I wanted to give a bit of feedback.

Unfortunately I will not really have the opportunity to play multiplayer with my friends due to scheduling, thus I am focusing on the single player experience.

What I liked from the kickstarter 11 update:
- you can control each character fully as opposed to D:OS where e.g. vendors wouldn't talk to the NPC companions.

What worries me or what I didn't like:
- I can only create 1 character, it sounds like the game auto creates the rest
- the roleplaying feature from D:OS between the 2 player characters has been removed in favor of an automated reactive system

What I was hoping for was the feature to create all 4 party members, so I can get the classes and races I want. That is not possible.
What I was also hoping for was full ability to roleplay all characters, not playing of an automated reaction system. That is also not possible.

I really hope you will introduce these features with an option to give full freedom in creation and roleplaying, maybe as an option to either activate auto party member creation and AI or not. Or how about making it so I as a single player can create a multiplayer game and just control all 4 characters?
I am not suggesting completely removing the automated stuff as some really like that, however those of us who enjoy complete freedom please reconsider putting in an option to fully create and control all party members.

Anyway that is some immediate feedback based on the kickstarter update 11 video. Really hope you consider increasing the freedom to roleplay all characters fully.

Last edited by Gnoster; 22/09/15 08:30 PM.
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Actually I think this is not set in stone and was probably a generic example. I mean, the 1 created character vs up to 4 thing.
Or at least you'd have to choose between presets. Or maybe recruit the companions you'd like to bring with you.

Maybe have a look on the ongoing AMA - the question may have been asked and answered already smile


Scratch all that, I totally forgot to watch the video ( the best one to date, haha ! ) so yeah looks like premade. I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of creating the other characters at some point though. If those premades's reactions are based on a system of choice priorities, I think a fully customed party is still possible.

Last edited by Dr Koin; 22/09/15 09:07 PM.

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They are pre-set companions that will act like any other companion in every RPG ever. I called that a week ago :p It's kinda schizophrenic to role-play all the characters when they talk to each other, but whatever floats your boat, I suppose. I'm pretty positive we'll reach Mod Support, so I'm guessing someone will make a mod that will allow you to create your own party, old-school style.

I just didn't like the fact that AI companions won't act against us, ever. At least that's what I understood. They won't ever leave or attack us no matter how appalling or insulting we are to them. EDIT: They haven't mentioned how many companions there are, actually. So if it's only 3, then them not leaving would be a gameplay choice and not a story one.

This can be a good or a bad thing, depending on the way the story is set up. It sure would make for a more focused narrative that can intertwine beautifully with these four characters, this is somewhat comparable to Mask of the Betrayer. Okku and One-of-Many felt a bit like baggage compared to the HUGE impact Safiya, Gann and Kaelyn had on the story. I always thought that the "canon" idea for the party was You, Safiya, Gann and Kaelyn.

Last edited by Lacrymas; 22/09/15 09:17 PM.
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@Gnoster ICFZEbra asked about roleplaying multiple characters and Swen himself answered
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You don't have to be disappointed. You can play like what you describe. The only thing you can't do in the default setting is evolve the relationship but I imagine that we'll leave the option in to role-play that too, because we already have it and it's what we're using to play/test the game.

Also I think that you can just open a multiplayer game for yourself (even in splitscreen on pc if necessary and you manually drop out the "second" player)

Originally Posted by Lacrymas

I just didn't like the fact that AI companions won't act against us, ever. At least that's what I understood. They won't ever leave or attack us no matter how appalling or insulting we are to them.


If we reach Love&Hate via Paypal then Larian will probably include some sort of consequence into it. I think they meant that they do not implement an AI that solves quest in their own way.

Last edited by transfat; 22/09/15 10:37 PM.
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I'm going to be a dissenting voice here. I LIKE the idea of creating a single character and having other, fixed companions with their own points of view and reactions. I am not interested in role-playing versus myself - I wasn't in D:OS 1, so much so that I didn't play D:OS 1 on release - I waited until the AI personalities were added before playing for the first time.

I do not mind that I won't have the opportunity to customize my entire party, and that they will have their own distinct roles and strengths. It just means that I can focus on tailoring MY character in a specific way.

However, I'm a bit less certain on the AI companions never leave or attack. That really depends a lot on the specifics, though, and I have no idea what those are yet. It could be good, it could be bad. I don't want to be forced to take a spy for the Divine Magisters with us in our party, but other than that, it probably doesn't matter so much.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
I'm going to be a dissenting voice here. I LIKE the idea of creating a single character and having other, fixed companions with their own points of view and reactions. I am not interested in role-playing versus myself - I wasn't in D:OS 1, so much so that I didn't play D:OS 1 on release - I waited until the AI personalities were added before playing for the first time.

I do not mind that I won't have the opportunity to customize my entire party, and that they will have their own distinct roles and strengths. It just means that I can focus on tailoring MY character in a specific way.

However, I'm a bit less certain on the AI companions never leave or attack. That really depends a lot on the specifics, though, and I have no idea what those are yet. It could be good, it could be bad. I don't want to be forced to take a spy for the Divine Magisters with us in our party, but other than that, it probably doesn't matter so much.


I was hoping we'd have pre-set companions, so you definitely aren't the single dissenting voice :p Role-playing all 4 characters yourself is basically schizophrenia.

If they don't leave, no matter what kind of atrocities we commit (if they are goody two-shoes), they are either woven from the same cloth as KotOR2's companions where they were all basically neutral, though it had a story reason behind it that I'm not gonna spoil. Suffice it to say it worked great. OR their personalities aren't strong enough to stand up to the PC (it depends on their overall personality if that is good or bad). It really depends on the context, simply put.

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The start of the game involves breaking out of prison with your chosen companions. There is no tavern where sourcerers hang out where you can recruit another if a companion leaves.
Also, the story is being written in such a way that there are always reasons for the characters to work together for the main story, despite any competitive questing which may happen along the way in multiplayer. That story exists for the companions in single player, as well.

Personally, I liked role playing both main characters in D:OS, but with 4 characters I'm not sure I'd want to do that, even with that option left in.

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I hope there are different companions to choose from at the beginning. I'm A-Okay with having pre-made companions, but I'm definitely not okay if I have to play with the same 3 every single time; that kind of makes it so the game has zero replay value to me.

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Originally Posted by Haleseen
I hope there are different companions to choose from at the beginning. I'm A-Okay with having pre-made companions, but I'm definitely not okay if I have to play with the same 3 every single time; that kind of makes it so the game has zero replay value to me.


From what I've gathered, there will be as many companions as there are origins, minus whatever origin the player picks. So if there are six origins, you'll basically have 1 and 1/2 playthroughs worth of new origins. It'd be incredible if there were eight different origins, so you'd have basically two fairly unique playthroughs, but that's asking a lot.

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Some good input in this thread. As we all expect there are different preferences on how to play single player. I kind of divide the input like this:

1) The player creates the first PC, the rest of the party is auto created by the game (including race, origin, and skills), and dialogue between party members is based on a relationship status between the members.
Now the relationship can be divided into two subcategories:
a) Party members other than the main character are set to disagree when appropriate, but never work directly against the main character
b) Party members other than the main character are set to disagree when appropriate as well as directly work against the main character, e.g. setting them to "War" status will then remove control of the character until that "war" is resolved somehow.

2) The player creates all 4 party members with full control of race, origin, and skills, and any dialogue between the party members is chosen 100% by the player, never by the system. The relationship status system could still exist under this for those who want to pursue romance (if that stretch goal is reached).

I 100% acknowledge not all want complete freedom of all 4 characters and I do think the first option should be allowed. All I am hoping for is that the second option is there as well for those of us, who prefer that and want to roleplay that (whether starting a multiplayer game but not inviting any other player is a mechanically valid option is a question for a developer, so can't answer that). Personally I think all the above 3 options would be awesome to have, as it gives a lot of replayability.

Last edited by Gnoster; 23/09/15 07:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by transfat
@Gnoster ICFZEbra asked about roleplaying multiple characters and Swen himself answered
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You don't have to be disappointed. You can play like what you describe. The only thing you can't do in the default setting is evolve the relationship but I imagine that we'll leave the option in to role-play that too, because we already have it and it's what we're using to play/test the game.


Read the post you're referencing and I agree, I also read Swen's remarks as it will be possible to have complete freedom in creating all 4 characters and roleplaying them ingame. It does make me confused as to why they didn't explain both methods in the Kickstarter update 11 though, will have to see what the end result becomes. Hopefully it is both, so we all can play however we would like.

Last edited by Gnoster; 23/09/15 08:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gnoster
What worries me or what I didn't like:
- I can only create 1 character, it sounds like the game auto creates the rest
- the roleplaying feature from D:OS between the 2 player characters has been removed in favor of an automated reactive system

This is something I also came to like, actually. While a little bit strange at first, it was tremendous fun to play out the interactions between the two.

Though maybe if we have more than 4 companions to chose from, and they are written better than the D:OS ones, I won't miss that feature too much. It was a feature that set D:OS apart from any other party based RPGs, however.


Originally Posted by Lacrymas
I just didn't like the fact that AI companions won't act against us, ever. At least that's what I understood. They won't ever leave or attack us no matter how appalling or insulting we are to them. EDIT: They haven't mentioned how many companions there are, actually. So if it's only 3, then them not leaving would be a gameplay choice and not a story one.

Same here. What's the point if they cry foul, but at the end of the day, there are no consequences. Sure, with the Love & Hate stretch goal, we may not be able to win their affection if we constantly act against their will, but that's not such a big deal.

As strange as it was, I'd rather see a RPS to fight out opposing opinions with the party members than just have them whine about my decisions after the fact. Better yet, have dialogue to convince them of my point (which is already present for the multiplayer part, I believe), with success or failure depending on stats or origin or current standing with the NPC. And failure should mean just that ... you don't get to do what you initially wanted (i.e. looting the body).


In general, I find it a bit strange that the companions are supposed to have a mind of their own, but then you are able to directly control each of them in dialogue and make them say things that are out of character.

Either they are AI companions, in which case they should act on their own as much as possible or they are player controlled, in which case I should be able to create them myself at the start of the game.

Even from a gameplay perspective, I think it makes little sense to control them in conversations ... it diminishes the impact of the main characters origin and race, it takes away from the NPCs personality and it also decreases replayability if we can resolve any situation in any possible way.

And, in my opinion, it is completely unnecessary. Should we get to the Shapeshifting Mask goal, we also have the means to impersonate another character in those conversations where it may really matter. What use is there for the mask if we can already be any of 4 different personalities in dialogues at any point in time? In short, sometimes less is more.

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I agree with Ka1man, that it will feel strange if you have an companion with an own personality but you can control him yourself.
example: One of your companions is a dwarf who dislikes humans and who fights for the freedom of the dwarfs. But when you control him you let him answer in a way that he betrays the dwarfs and cooperates with the ones who enslave them. But If you play your own char later and give such an answer, your companion will camplain and he says that he will always fight for the dwarves, no matter what.

I see 2 options, but I do not like both:
- Like Pillars of Eternity, you can control all chars and use their skills, but only the main char talks in conversations and makes decissions. ( It will not be like this from what I have read.)
- You main char has all options to choose from (In the example above he can be for or against the dwarfs, no matter if he is dwarf or human.) but when you control your companions you can only choose answers that are not against their personality. (This will take away freedom from the player.)

As I have said, I am not really happy with all of these possibilities. But I do not have a better idea.


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There is another thing.

Lets say you start a 4 player multiplayer game and each player creates his char. After all chars meet and form a party, 3 players leave and you play the rest of the game as single player.
How can these chars all be player created and have an own personality at the same time?

Or is it like baldurs gate 1+2 that you can play with companions that have a personality or you create some chars yourself and those have no personality at all?

Last edited by Madscientist; 23/09/15 09:54 AM.

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The single player companions might be existent and ready to be picked up somewhere else in multiplayer, too.
Or it might be possible to link previous answers into a vector that, together with character origins, determine which opinions he will express in the future. These opinions must have been arranged within a similar net of causality/consistency in the first place, ofc.
This isn't easy and it will restrict how Larian can develop their characters and I would not recommend it, but with lots of effort it might be a possibility.

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It isn't really that hard to fix or come up with, tbh. If you are in single-player you don't control your companions in conversations. You can only use their stats when trading or crafting. Somewhat obscure reference: Vampire: The Masquerade: REDEMPTION (not Bloodlines) was like this. You could only choose the dialogue for the main character, but you could use the other companions' stats to barter. They were totally autonomous entities outside of directly controlling them for combat or shopping, or equipping them. They had their own opinions and interjected in dialogue etc. Just how I think the D:OS2 single player is going to work. The companions are going to have their own story and their own personality and when there is drop-in, drop-out multiplayer the second player isn't going to be able to choose dialogue options.

If you are worried about not being able to use their inherent skills/backgrounds, NWN2 has you covered. When you failed a check in conversations, a companion can interject with their own skills (it was programmed so they always succeeded and it made sense) and pass the check for you. The companions in D:OS can use their influence/abilities/backgrounds/connections to help in conversations like in NWN2

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Originally Posted by Lacrymas
It isn't really that hard to fix or come up with, tbh. If you are in single-player you don't control your companions in conversations. You can only use their stats when trading or crafting. [...] They had their own opinions and interjected in dialogue etc. Just how I think the D:OS2 single player is going to work. The companions are going to have their own story and their own personality and when there is drop-in, drop-out multiplayer the second player isn't going to be able to choose dialogue options.

If you are worried about not being able to use their inherent skills/backgrounds, NWN2 has you covered. When you failed a check in conversations, a companion can interject with their own skills (it was programmed so they always succeeded and it made sense) and pass the check for you. The companions in D:OS can use their influence/abilities/backgrounds/connections to help in conversations like in NWN2

I'd be absolutely fine with that. But what I took from Update 11 makes me believe that it does not work like this, but instead:
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So if you have an elf in your party, it might be more interesting to interact with an elven ancestor tree using your elf rather than your dwarven warrior. But if you interact with your dwarven warrior, you will get different reactions.
And I think the video spelt it out even clearer, though I cannot get at that right now.

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I have a more general question:

Are D:OS1+2 designed as single player game with the option to have a multi player ( like baldurs gate) or as a multi player game with the option to play alone?

I played D:OS1 as single player and it was one of the best games I have ever played.
But some things seemed very strange to me until I realized that it can be played as multi player (2 main characters, RPS between player characters, no pause, . . . ).

I have not played a multi player game for a very long time. The only multi player RPG (not MMOs) I have ever played was Secret of Mana.


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Originally Posted by Madscientist
I have a more general question:

Are D:OS1+2 designed as single player game with the option to have a multi player ( like baldurs gate) or as a multi player game with the option to play alone?

I played D:OS1 as single player and it was one of the best games I have ever played.
But some things seemed very strange to me until I realized that it can be played as multi player (2 main characters, RPS between player characters, no pause, . . . ).

I have not played a multi player game for a very long time. The only multi player RPG (not MMOs) I have ever played was Secret of Mana.


As far as I analyzed it, it was an experiment trying to combine both. Mechanically it was a huge success even if some of the systems needed more work (char progression past a certain point, talents, perks), but all in all it was very well made. The insurmountable chasm was the writing. By making both main characters blank slates (to accommodate multi-player in the story), it relegated them to non-entities that the universe just treated as the special snowflakes du jour. Without proper context and input from the other main character it all felt token, unreal and absurd when they were trying to talk to each other.

This would've been an amazing opportunity to explore the relationship between you and the characters. That whole "reincarnated heroes" plot could've been dropped, it really didn't matter anyway, and made the characters literally the puppets of the universe or the Source. I.e. the Source creating life (it can do this, because of its healing properties), so it can save the planet from the villain-of-the-week. Since the Source isn't an organic entity, the characters feeling like puppets on a string would be LITERALLY that. The gameplay/story interweaving like this would've been grand to see. That would explain your lack of backstory, "chosen-ness", your ability to dispatch foes normal people wouldn't be able to, the characters trying to imitate life, but not quite getting it right (when trying to talk to each other), multiplayer would make more sense, the rock/paper/scissors thing would've been the Source failing to understand other points of view etc. This concept could've been explored and expanded upon and it would've been the "main story" with the dragon business being a side-thing that you have to complete in order the preserve the world.

I digressed a lot lulz.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
I'm going to be a dissenting voice here. I LIKE the idea of creating a single character and having other, fixed companions with their own points of view and reactions. I am not interested in role-playing versus myself - I wasn't in D:OS 1, so much so that I didn't play D:OS 1 on release - I waited until the AI personalities were added before playing for the first time.

I do not mind that I won't have the opportunity to customize my entire party, and that they will have their own distinct roles and strengths. It just means that I can focus on tailoring MY character in a specific way.

However, I'm a bit less certain on the AI companions never leave or attack. That really depends a lot on the specifics, though, and I have no idea what those are yet. It could be good, it could be bad. I don't want to be forced to take a spy for the Divine Magisters with us in our party, but other than that, it probably doesn't matter so much.


This. To me making the player create the whole party is just lazy on the developer. Granted, I think it should be an option for those that just want to make some meta-team to blow through the game with. But I want to find some NPC companions and have to learn about them in game, see if we 'click' or not, determine if I want to do any personal quests for them or not, etc.

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