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The first thing you see in the game #586494
18/09/16 01:04 AM
18/09/16 01:04 AM
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Vulpes Absurda Offline OP
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Vulpes Absurda  Offline OP
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Is this really the first thing you want people to see in the game?

[Linked Image]

(I'm afraid you'll have to follow the link to see the picture as I'm not yet a full forum member. But for those who do no wish to follow the link it is a picture of the female elf that appears when you boot up character creation)

I have to be honest, I was really excited for this game, but having this be the default state of dress for an entire race of women has murdered my enthusiasm. And I’m not the only one who was disappointed by this rather blatant sexism.

You can say all you want about how the men are dressed the same for the elves, but it’s not equivalent in any way. Women are constantly sexualized or reduced to their anatomy. You can’t hand wave it away by saying it’s their elven culture. A writer had to create that culture and that writer does not exist in a vacuum.

A few women I have asked about this have been hugely disappointed and have opted to not buy this game or future Larian products. These people have supported Larian for many years, and are disappointed with this choice. The only reason you’re hearing from me and not them is that this is so standard it wasn’t worth their time to write something like this out and then be told by commenters that they’re are being some sort of prude or that “The game is for adults and some people like this stuff and you’re just being an social jusblah blah blah”

And here’s the thing, I don’t really care if this sort of absurd outfit is an option. I think the elves look kinda gross in a living beef jerky plant kinda way but I’m guessing that’s the point and that’s fine. I even get why you would want to show that off. But it needs to be done in a way that isn’t also reusing tired bikini armour and seductive sorceress tropes. Because when you do that, that is the only thing that stands out. So it’s not just a failure in the way it can alienate roughly half the population of the planet, but an artistic one as well.

I hope you take these thoughts into consideration. I know you did something similar with the boxart for the previous game and while I still had issues with that game's presentation of women your willingness to make changes was a big part of why I wanted to give you a chance with this one and backed the kickstarter for two. I am disappointed to see that you have not learned from past mistakes.

Thank you for your time, and I hope you receive this in the spirit in which it is intended.

Last edited by vometia; 18/09/16 06:56 AM. Reason: formatting
Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586497
18/09/16 01:07 AM
18/09/16 01:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,771
Hassat Hunter Offline

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Hassat Hunter  Offline

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Oh god, here we go...

Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586500
18/09/16 01:23 AM
18/09/16 01:23 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 51
Wellzy4eva Offline

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Wellzy4eva  Offline

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Men are constantly portrayed as having physiques of Greek gods in all forms of media as well, it's not sexism prejudice towards women.

Embracing Fantasy will always lead different people to dispute what's appropriate and what isn't and generally popular culture wins, ergo familiar stereotypes.

Is that in itself sexist? Probably, but don't blame the established artists for their influences.

Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586502
18/09/16 01:34 AM
18/09/16 01:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2016
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OxTeR Offline
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I mean, is this seriously what bothers you about a game? How sexualized a female character looks? Is that the deciding factor if you're going to play a game or not? If so, I don't get it, I really don't. You're not playing games for the right reasons then imo.

Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Wellzy4eva] #586503
18/09/16 01:35 AM
18/09/16 01:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 84
mesmerizedish Offline
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Originally Posted by Wellzy4eva
Men are constantly portrayed as having physiques of Greek gods in all forms of media as well, it's not sexism prejudice towards women.


They're entirely different.

That said, I don't really have a problem with the elf armor. The elf men are equally undressed, and they're literally made of wood anyway, so I just... super don't care.

That said, I don't have a problem with having a problem with it, either? I'm not gonna tell you you're wrong, OP.

Like, does the elf appearance perpetuate some great social ill? I'm pretty certain that, in this specific case, the answer is no. But that doesn't invalidate any discomfort it may cause someone.

Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586514
18/09/16 02:39 AM
18/09/16 02:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 65
Midian
kingcrowley Offline
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Midian
I see no problems at all with the visual elements for this game.


There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls.” – George Carlin-
Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Hassat Hunter] #586515
18/09/16 02:39 AM
18/09/16 02:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 65
Midian
kingcrowley Offline
journeyman
kingcrowley  Offline
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Midian
Right?


There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls.” – George Carlin-
Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Hassat Hunter] #586522
18/09/16 03:12 AM
18/09/16 03:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 4
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Kiste Offline
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Kiste  Offline
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Originally Posted by HassatHunter
Oh god, here we go...


Like clockwork. The point-and-shriek crowd will always find something to complain about, especially since Larian have been shown to be susceptible to this kind of pressure in the past. This just invites the crybullies to do it again and again. This is why you should not give those types even just an inch.




Last edited by vometia; 18/09/16 07:00 AM. Reason: formatting
Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586551
18/09/16 06:46 AM
18/09/16 06:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,580
Dark_Ansem Offline

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One post, and only one made to bother.

Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586554
18/09/16 06:59 AM
18/09/16 06:59 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,119
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Offline

Duchess of Gorgombert
vometia  Offline

Duchess of Gorgombert

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The Frog & Hounds
I can't say I'm bothered by it: I actually think it's a pretty interesting design. What does bother me is when people talk about women gamers and what offends us rather than with us. Not saying that's the case here, but I have seen it happen and have felt almost chastised for speaking up when there's a man to speak on my behalf.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586561
18/09/16 07:34 AM
18/09/16 07:34 AM
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Bhazor Offline
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Bhazor  Offline
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I award this OP 8/8

Last edited by Bhazor; 18/09/16 07:36 AM.
Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586569
18/09/16 07:56 AM
18/09/16 07:56 AM
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Sordak Offline
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Another one?
Goddamn away with your identity politics already.

Nobody listened to this nonsense in the first thread about this NON ISSUE and now you make another one attempting to appeal to larian that somehow people will be scared away from a game because GASP Nudity!

What is this the 90s?

This prudeness is ridiculous. You obviously have only contempt for Art and Beauty. Everything that does not bow to your arbitrary definitions of decency is verboten.

And lets be clear here. The "women" argument i dont buy for a minute.
Almost no women kickstarted the game and that was before any of this was shown. This is yet another non issue.
For all we know censorship doesnt make women buy games.

You know what games are popular? Games that dont care about this sort of "Issue".
What RPG did realy well the last year? oh right that was the Witcher 3, a game that was hounded by people like you for the exact same reasons.

Too sexy women, the protagonist is a man who is dressed decently and can have sex with gorgous sorcresses.

And you know what? Nobody cared. People LOVED that game and they LOVED its characters despite the women beeing dressed differently from the Protagonist.

And i can tell you plenty of women play the Witcher.

If thats not enaugh look at any MMO ever and look at what female players dress like in those.
Hint: Humans, not just women, want to look attractive. Thats why male players gravitate towards Conan the Barbarian style loincloth wearing Schwartzeneggers and women gravitate towards Femme Fatale types. And this is not a bad thing.
This is just normal. And its not like in Original sin you CANNOT be a plain looking person. You can be a Human whose armor is definitly not impractical and you can be a Dwarf where this is even less so the case.
Hell you can be a Lizard that doesnt even have breasts if thats your thing.
but you complain about an OPTION because it does not adher to your agenda.


Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Sordak] #586571
18/09/16 08:02 AM
18/09/16 08:02 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,119
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Offline

Duchess of Gorgombert
vometia  Offline

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The Frog & Hounds
Originally Posted by Sordak
And i can tell you plenty of women play the Witcher.

Well yeah, there's one here for a start. And I'm a backer. :p

I dunno. I know lots of other women who play RPGs and who mostly don't really care all that much either way about bikini armour and stuff. I find myself more offended by impractical swords that are likely to do more harm to their wielder than their adversary.

And shoes. There are some reasonably interesting shoes in the CC but just horrid clumpy great things in game. D:


J'aime le fromage.
Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586580
18/09/16 08:32 AM
18/09/16 08:32 AM
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Ellary Offline
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Vulpes welcome to fantasy games! Where male player characters are all troubled hard bodied thugs and women are either freakishly deformed or so butch they might as well be a man.

I pick games apart on character creation. As Vometia said~ most of us female gamers don't care about the skimpy armor. Like I know it's done for sales. I personally would have loved to see some pretty robes, but eh~

What does erk me about the game is no cute face options! they are all angry looking or aged. Why does Larian hate innocent looking characters! ;_; it's okay though, I still love everyone at Larian.

Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586587
18/09/16 08:50 AM
18/09/16 08:50 AM
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Posts: 1,182
Tuco Offline
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Tuco  Offline
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I don't even care about how "sexualized" they may seem (especially given how hardly anything about them strikes me as "sexually appealing"); my major problem with elfs (elves?) in this game is that both males and females are absolutely ugly. Not even in a "deliberate and almost-cool" sort of way, more as some anatomical Eldritch abominations.

Oh, and they accentuate more than other races this dreadful and inexplicable obsession with GIANT PAULDRONS that Larian had for a while in their armor design.
Frankly giant pauldrons to me have always been more offensive than characters doing explicit sexual intercourse.

Just saying.
I don't expect them to change anything at this point, in the same way I don't even bother anymore pointing to them that randomized itemization is an atrocious design choice in a game with a finite number of encounters.

Last edited by Tuco; 18/09/16 08:54 AM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. You too can join the good fight HERE
Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586594
18/09/16 09:05 AM
18/09/16 09:05 AM
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4verse Offline

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Elves in DOS2 (as far as I know) live in rather close touch with nature just like some indigenous peoples in eg the Amazonas. Women there run around rather lightly clad (look it up). So, cultural wise that seems to fit. So, do you call indigenous people sexist as well? If not, whats the issue? It is a cultural feature not a sexist one.

Last edited by 4verse; 18/09/16 09:05 AM.

"I don't make games to make money, I make money to make games". (Swen Vincke)
Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: vometia] #586605
18/09/16 09:27 AM
18/09/16 09:27 AM
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Hassat Hunter Offline

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Originally Posted by vometia
And shoes. There are some reasonably interesting shoes in the CC but just horrid clumpy great things in game. D:

How stereotypical.

And yeah, my girlfriend (who is, shockingly, a woman, who guessed?), who is not a gamer, completed the entire The Withcher: Enhanced Edition. And probably would The Witcher II if it didn't run horribly on her laptop (really, it's like slideshow, not a fun way to game).

Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Sordak] #586613
18/09/16 09:50 AM
18/09/16 09:50 AM
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OxTeR Offline
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OxTeR  Offline
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@Sordak, you da real mvp! :)
couldn't have said it better myself!
Larian has enough to bother about already.

Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Vulpes Absurda] #586624
18/09/16 10:21 AM
18/09/16 10:21 AM
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Beyond Offline
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Beyond  Offline
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I love how the OP mentioned something that bothered him and you're all jumping at his throat.

This is a feedback forum. Stop being pricks and blaming people for not liking something. Stop attacking people who love this game enough to sign up for a forum and write a post about it.
There will be men and women who think it's fine and men and women who think it's not. THAT'S HOW OPINIONS WORK. You don't have to be pricks about it.


I completely agree with him. I personally have no problem with elves here (both males and females seem to shy away from armour, which is fine), but the fact that you go into character creation and the FIRST THING you see is a 85% nude female IS a bit jarring. Ignoring all other issues in the other post, simply selecting a different one as the starter would solve this (and that may very well be the case in the full game).

Re: The first thing you see in the game [Re: Beyond] #586628
18/09/16 10:31 AM
18/09/16 10:31 AM
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Ellary Offline
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Originally Posted by Beyond
I love how the OP mentioned something that bothered him and you're all jumping at his throat.

This is a feedback forum. Stop being pricks and blaming people for not liking something. Stop attacking people who love this game enough to sign up for a forum and write a post about it.
There will be men and women who think it's fine and men and women who think it's not. THAT'S HOW OPINIONS WORK. You don't have to be pricks about it.


I completely agree with him. I personally have no problem with elves here (both males and females seem to shy away from armour, which is fine), but the fact that you go into character creation and the FIRST THING you see is a 85% nude female IS a bit jarring. Ignoring all other issues in the other post, simply selecting a different one as the starter would solve this (and that may very well be the case in the full game).


So if it was a 85% nude male it would be okay? @_@. No ones really being a prick as you claim. least not in my eyes. You claim the OP has a right to an opinion, but then you call anyone with an opposite opinion a prick.. why not just get a big ol tank of gas and toss it into a bon fire.. cause that's pretty much what you are doing.

I personally hate the female elves, they look more like freaks to me. Like a norn and a sylvari had a freakish baby and never fed it (guild wars 2 races) I am female and the OP claims "females" are offended by seeing that. I guess I am one of those females who has the magical power of clicking the > button and changing the race.

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