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Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Elwyn] #590000
28/09/16 07:03 PM
28/09/16 07:03 PM
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aj0413 Offline
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Originally Posted by Elwyn
Originally Posted by vometia
I suppose what bothers me a bit about stuff like this is the assertion that others know better than I do what I should find offensive. And if I say I don't find it offensive, there's sometimes a bit of a vibe of "shush woman, the men are talking".


I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.


Just pointing it out there, but have the people bringing up sexism and so on bothered to ask the female members of this community their opinions or thoughts before supposedly defending them from sexism?

From there statements it seems like they don't approve....

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590001
28/09/16 07:05 PM
28/09/16 07:05 PM
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Posts: 816
right behind you
Madscientist Offline

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right behind you
I did not read everything above but this is my opinion:
I just looked at character creation and switched through all races and classes.

- I do not think that elves and lizards look very sexy because they are too alien for me. I like the look of elves and lizards because they are different from what you usually see in video games. It is very good that elves do not look like humans with pointy ears.

- I find the female dwarfs most sexual, while humans look quite neutral to me.

- I think that all chars have enough cloth, unless you press the "hide armor" button. (I have no reason to do so. This is an RPG where my char will always wear armor, not a miss universe contest.)

- You only see it at character creation. Once you created your char you will never see him/her like this.

- The term "race" refers to different groups of the same species. Unless we see later that the pale elvs suppress the dark elvs, the term "racissm" makes no sense in the game world.

- I do not understand why so many people talk about this. This is my first and last post in this tread. If I keep on reading here I get a headache.


groovy Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist groovy

World leading expert of artificial stupidity.
Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already :hihi:
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: aj0413] #590003
28/09/16 07:25 PM
28/09/16 07:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
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cae37 Offline

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Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by Elwyn
Originally Posted by vometia
I suppose what bothers me a bit about stuff like this is the assertion that others know better than I do what I should find offensive. And if I say I don't find it offensive, there's sometimes a bit of a vibe of "shush woman, the men are talking".


I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.


Just pointing it out there, but have the people bringing up sexism and so on bothered to ask the female members of this community their opinions or thoughts before supposedly defending them from sexism?

From there statements it seems like they don't approve....


Yes, this is a good point to bring up. Just because some of us find the poses distasteful/offensive doesn't mean we should dismiss the opinions of or silence the women who don't care about the issue or believe the poses aren't distasteful/offensive at all.

We should all be entitled to our own opinions.

Last edited by cae37; 28/09/16 07:25 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590008
28/09/16 07:45 PM
28/09/16 07:45 PM
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kcnik Offline

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Can we stop here? All those posts for something you will see for like 5 min in game.
Yes you have all the rights to point out that you dont like certain poses. BUT in the end the designer has the desicion to change the pose or not.


[Insert something funny here]
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590036
28/09/16 10:06 PM
28/09/16 10:06 PM
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GepardenK Offline
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Originally Posted by cae37
@Sordak You're either completely ignorant or unwilling to be informed if you truly believe that sexism is completely absent from American media, including video games.
Well.. your not necessarily wrong but you need to define what you mean by sexism. There's a lot of accusations and claims of injustice going on without people actually explaining what they think is wrong. What kind of sexism is the issue in videogames?

If a bully calls a woman "a kitchen tool" is he a sexist? If the same bully calls a shy introvert "a pathetic looser" what is he then, a nerdist?

Or do you mean sexism as in 'holding the belief that a particular sex is inferior'?

Or do you mean sexism as in 'holding the belief that the genders have different average behaviors'?

Or do you mean sexism as in 'treating the genders differently'?

Or do you mean sexism as in 'focusing on the sexual value of the genders'?

Or is it something else?

I'm not pulling your leg here. I really need an explanation of what you think is wrong and why it is wrong before I can state a opinion on your claims.

Last edited by GepardenK; 28/09/16 10:06 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590043
28/09/16 11:22 PM
28/09/16 11:22 PM
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Sotomonte Offline

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This looks like a troll thread. I suggest everyone move on.


Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky.
But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590098
29/09/16 04:41 AM
29/09/16 04:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 379
Ayvah Offline

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As I've explained earlier, sexism is something done by everyone to everyone. The classic view that it's something done by men to women is completely incorrect.

There is a well known scientific study where a researcher tried sending an identical resume to a number of American professors, to have the resumes evaluated. There were two slight variations though. On one, the applicant was named "John", the other "Jennifer".

The female resume was rated more poorly than the male resume. And this trend was no different even among female professors. There is no adjective that describes this better than "sexism". That's progressive America.

Women certainly should have a voice on the topic, and I don't recall anyone telling Vometia to stay out of the discussion, but we all need to recognise that those of us who have been a part of this community for so long have gotten used to the culture of this community. In Australian politics, our conservative party is 17% women, and they are quick to join the men of their party to argue that sexism is a dead issue. Meanwhile, our progressive party, which is still only 40% women, talk about sexism as a modern issue, and the men are almost as passionate as the women. Women are not always feminists. How many people here have learned about the women who opposed women's suffrage?

The OP actually presented the opinion of his female friends. While it's fair to question whether he was lying, we shouldn't dismiss their opinion on the basis of the friends not being part of the core group posting in this forum. We're all entitled to our views, and we should certainly listen closely when a woman speaks about her experiences with sexism, whether or not she feels like it has been a real issue. However, no man or woman can claim to speak for all women.

We don't need to feel guilty about making mistakes sometimes. I've certainly made sexist comments in the past. The most important thing is to recognise sexism for what it is and endeavour to do better.

In review:

1. We provided several objective criteria proving that there is a contrast in style between poses in D:OS2 between male and female humans. There appears to be broad agreement about this.

2. The first point of disagreement is how we view this difference. I see the difference as designed to emphasise the femininity of the female characters.

3. The second point of disagreement is that I do not feel comfortable with the idea that people -- male or female -- should have to be constantly be exposed to media suggesting that it's okay for a woman to be professional BUT only if she lives up to our ideals of femininity.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590100
29/09/16 04:49 AM
29/09/16 04:49 AM
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Posts: 57
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YOGZULA Offline
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I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and disagree with you about this.

The models, both male and female, are highly stylized. The female models don't put a great emphasis on nudity and the class poses that are less armored also have less armored male counterparts.

I did write an article further articulating my stance on this, so instead of typing it all out over again you can check it out here

http://multitoad.com/the-world-needs-more-video-game-nudity/

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Ayvah] #590108
29/09/16 06:06 AM
29/09/16 06:06 AM
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Posts: 5,084
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Offline

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Women certainly should have a voice on the topic, and I don't recall anyone telling Vometia to stay out of the discussion, but we all need to recognise that those of us who have been a part of this community for so long have gotten used to the culture of this community. In Australian politics, our conservative party is 17% women, and they are quick to join the men of their party to argue that sexism is a dead issue.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but that seems to be immediately invalidting my opinion about the subject, which is effectively denying me a voice.

For the record, I am certainly aware of sexism and when people are guilty of it, but the stuff that bothers me is for example someone who assumes I know absolutely nothing about technology because I'm female. It's sometimes tempting to add "... even though I've worked in IT since the 1980s", although really that shouldn't be necessary as at best it just leads to a grudging "well I suppose I can make an exception for you, then."

For the record II, my gf's g-grandmother was a suffragette, so I'm kinda aware of them.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Ayvah] #590132
29/09/16 08:07 AM
29/09/16 08:07 AM
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Mashiki Offline
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Originally Posted by Ayvah

It's more important that the artist should respect their audience, isn't it?


No. It's important that the artist make something that they enjoy and how they want. It's also important that the artist be forced to redesign their artwork because it hurts someones sensitive feelings. And others should take their work(s) as it is, instead of trying to jam their viewpoint on it or whine about how it's so problematic, sexist, or whatever.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: vometia] #590162
29/09/16 10:54 AM
29/09/16 10:54 AM
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Ayvah Offline

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Vometia, I don't know what gives you that impression exactly. Your opinion and your experience is valid, and I am listening.

But at the same time, it's one person's experience.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Ayvah] #590188
29/09/16 11:59 AM
29/09/16 11:59 AM
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Lyrhe Offline
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Originally Posted by Ayvah
But at the same time, it's one person's experience.


Just like yours and yet you managed to fill 10 sites of trollposts with it. rolleyes


Last edited by Lyrhe; 29/09/16 12:25 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: vometia] #590194
29/09/16 12:23 PM
29/09/16 12:23 PM
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Västervik
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Skallewag Offline
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Västervik
Originally Posted by vometia
...seems to be immediately invalidting my opinion about the subject, which is effectively denying me a voice.


No, that´s not how having a voice in the discussion works.
You state your opinions, preferably followed up with some arguments so people can see what you base your opinions on.
Then others chip in, they might agree or they might not, but if they do not agree, or even (oh the horror) happen to think something you said was stupid, that is not denying you your opinion or your ability to voice it. That is nothing more than disagreeing with your opinion.
Regardless what you happen to think about anything under the sun, someone is going to disagree.

I reccomend you learn to deal with it, because not being able to handle this part of a discussion will indeeed make people not think very much of your opinions.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590236
29/09/16 03:22 PM
29/09/16 03:22 PM
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Jesus almighty, this thread is still happening? At the end of the day, as I've said before, the designer can do whatever they want and if you don't like it switch to another class/gender/character or don't play the game. I, for one, like how it is at the moment and don't want it changed. I'm not seeing any issues here so let's close this thread already.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590256
29/09/16 05:22 PM
29/09/16 05:22 PM
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Noirdeathe Offline
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Man; this whole thread was some fantastic reading on a slow afternoon.

I like the stylized poses for both the males & females. It looks good, especially with the more 'alien' races. Why has sexy become bad? I mean, we, as human beings are sexual beings (and I'll never be as ripped as any of the guys on there, should I feel bad? Or is it supposed to be a 'power fantasy').

Though I did want to say (as I couldn't see anything regarding it) that the infamous Spiderwoman pose was drawn by Milo Manara, who, is an in/famous erotic comic artist. Why Marvel would ever choose him to do covers for their very much PG13 comics when he's renown for the complete opposite .. who knows?

At the end of the day though; it's all a little moot. It's Larians artistic vision and choice and I feel support should be given (as it's getting hard enough now to make something without it causing offense).

Last edited by Noirdeathe; 29/09/16 05:35 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: OxTeR] #590264
29/09/16 06:26 PM
29/09/16 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OxTeR
I don't understand why people are discussing how realistic and unrealistic stuff is in a fantasy world. Can't we just all enjoy the game and stop this endless debate that has no end?

There is a difference between "realistic" and "plausible". In a fantasy setting troll, magic and elementals are plausible. Full plate armor on guys that becomes teeny weeny string bikini on girls is not, as much as I like it.

Originally Posted by Noirdeathe
Why has sexy become bad? I mean, we, as human beings are sexual beings (and I'll never be as ripped as any of the guys on there, should I feel bad? Or is it supposed to be a 'power fantasy').

It has not, as long as you also get a male with bikini armor.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590265
29/09/16 06:40 PM
29/09/16 06:40 PM
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Sordak Offline
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i get the argument about plausible but its not an argument you should be making in this point because this is mereley the plate armor equivalent for elves, not plate armor when equipped by elves, thats realy only game mechanics mixed in with rule of cool.

and realy what else would it be? actual plate armor just wouldnt fit with the aesthetic style of the elves here.
Style over substance? yeah but thats not a bad thing.

But realy i dont trust you to make your argument in good faith anyway.
everyhting you say is just an excuse to push your idiotic agenda.

Last edited by Sordak; 29/09/16 06:41 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Mashiki] #590288
29/09/16 08:51 PM
29/09/16 08:51 PM
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cae37 Offline

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Originally Posted by Mashiki
Originally Posted by Ayvah

It's more important that the artist should respect their audience, isn't it?


No. It's important that the artist make something that they enjoy and how they want. It's also important that the artist be forced to redesign their artwork because it hurts someones sensitive feelings. And others should take their work(s) as it is, instead of trying to jam their viewpoint on it or whine about how it's so problematic, sexist, or whatever.


This kind of thing is relative, honestly. A lot of the times artists do know best about their work, but some times the audience also has some good points/ideas.

I mean that's the entire purpose of releasing a game in Early Access no? So that the devs are better able to create a game most fans would enjoy by listening to their opinions. Audience feedback about aesthetics is part of this same process. They allowed us to give our opinions, so they should be willing to at least listen and consider what we have to say on the subject. Perhaps even make changes based on what we've said.

Larian's end goal is to create a product they can be proud of and that all of their fans can enjoy. This has the best chance of happening if they listen to what we have to say and make some changes; aesthetic or otherwise.

Last edited by cae37; 29/09/16 08:56 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590291
29/09/16 09:07 PM
29/09/16 09:07 PM
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Mebi Offline
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Hopefully Devs won't listen to some whining people willing to censur artistic media in 2016.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Lyrhe] #590294
29/09/16 09:25 PM
29/09/16 09:25 PM
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Ayvah Offline

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Originally Posted by Lyrhe
Originally Posted by Ayvah
But at the same time, it's one person's experience.
Just like yours and yet you managed to fill 10 sites of trollposts with it. rolleyes

I never pretended that I'm more important than anyone else in this forum. I've expressed my opinion and I've provided evidence to the best of my ability.

The fact that you continue to feel the need to label this as trolling indicates your lack of interest in engaging in any meaningful discussion. thebonesinger provided evidence and I listened and I was sufficiently convinced to concede the point.

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