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Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590299
29/09/16 09:36 PM
29/09/16 09:36 PM
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You know what? Just to make the feminists happy (and also cause it might be cool) Can we get some barbarian armor and maybe some transexual gag amour? The later would certainly be funny and the former would be cool if I want to be a murdering naked hobo

Instead of arguing for change on artistic stylization - why dont the naysayers present ideas that could be included easily enough to mollify them? Naked barbarian armour, some gag armour, a couple new poses for both male and female. Nothing require change or even too much work except to create a couple to few new models and animations. Then everyone can be happy, the devs can create joke armour for laughs and surprise us with it, and this long thread can finally end

This thread is kind of ridiculousness. Also, yes, any female audience member who has issues and plays the game actually deserves a voice....not those who just make comments on the side in passing. Especially considering we've had issues with people arguing over the phrase "man-at-arms" before from self-described feminists.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: YOGZULA] #590302
29/09/16 09:44 PM
29/09/16 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by YOGZULA
I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and disagree with you about this.

I won't get into every single character mentioned, but Quiet from MGSV is completely unjustifiable outside of soft porn. Have you even tried watching the Quiet/Ocelot model swap videos?

However, one area where Quiet is better than the random characters from D:OS2 is that Quiet (and the other examples in the article) is a character who chooses the way she dresses. That's called context. It's a very flimsy context, but it's still a context.

I'll remind everyone that one of my biggest criticisms is regarding the lack of context and/or the weakness of the context. Witcher 3 is an excellent game which includes topless men and women, and I'm a big fan of Game of Thrones -- not despite the full-frontal nudity but perhaps even partly because it's bold enough to be unashamed about sex and nudity. What these two works of art have is a very strong sense of context. You don't see Game of Throne's Brienne of Tarth charging into battle in a string bikini.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590306
29/09/16 09:51 PM
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@Ayvah
And people have given context for the game. Thematic context.......if you're looking for strong lore context for something placed for stylistic reasons, you're not always going to see it. A pose is stylistic -> no context necessary outside of the obvious (ie two handed warrior isnt doing backflips). A style of armor is both -> elves wear twigs cause they're forest people, but the way that looks is artist influenced. Style and context can clash -(ie Bikini armor) but sometimes a developer must decide which is more important.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: aj0413] #590311
29/09/16 09:59 PM
29/09/16 09:59 PM
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If the style of the game is sexist, then that's the real problem.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Ayvah] #590315
29/09/16 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ayvah
If the style of the game is sexist, then that's the real problem.


And yet, many disagree with you that it's in here. Heck, even female audience members disagree with you. Are you saying you know what's best for them?

Sexualized somewhat and giving clear gender differences -> Sure.

Sexist -> Discrimination or prejudice based on gender in an unjust way? No.

The game is idealizing both genders. So it's not discriminatory.

Also, sexism => must change game for society and morality and ect...is also wrong. It's a product. It's sold for profit. A certain audience buys said product. The business transaction and the voices of the consumer and producer effecting said transaction are the only ones that matter. Your moral standpoint has little value here. Only whether or not any changes or additions made will improve the game in such a way to appeal to a larger audience or improve customer satisfaction for the majority.

As it stands, I don't really see any points you brought up doing either of those two things

Last edited by aj0413; 29/09/16 10:14 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: aj0413] #590398
30/09/16 07:24 AM
30/09/16 07:24 AM
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This would make this the only feedback in these forums where we have the onus to articulate and prove the financial impact on sales of the game.

Also, it's clear that Larian is more than just a soulless business seeking to make a buck. Swen has also expressed his desire to reach a gender diverse audience. I'm not saying that this thread gives them the answers they need to achieve their goals, but it's food for thought.

Anyway, I appreciate the argument that sexy =/= sexist. As I said, I'm comfortable with sexiness but I don't see the male poses as equivalent as I'm not aware of any male human poses styled like ballet dancers.

The justification that was presented earlier is that the poses are styled based on historical references that, notably, never had women in poses designed to highlight their intellect or their strength. (The Ancient Greece argument made earlier.) Thus, at best this justification makes the style indirectly sexist by channelling historical sexism.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590399
30/09/16 07:43 AM
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and now the style of the game is sexist.

Do you even listen to yourself talk anymore?

I mean goddamnit historical sexism.
All the while earlier you were talking about realism.

you are grasping for straws and you have been for weeks just that you cannot let go.

You are wrong about everything here.
Every thing you say is wrong, every thing you said has been disproven. And you are making up stuff as you go just to hold on to your idiotic topic of sexism that is not present here.

What have you done to fight real sexism? For example in the middle east, or failing that middle eastern people wherever you live. how much time have you wasted here fighting made up sexism?

Last edited by Sordak; 30/09/16 07:45 AM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590400
30/09/16 07:52 AM
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I clearly don't understand those kind of debates about sexism and stuff in games. For me, the company making the game is responsible for the art design they have chosen and players who don't like it just don't play the game, end of the story.

This fashion of always critisizing art and games for the messages they deliver is clearly a hindrance to creativity. As players, we can decide whether some mechanics are fun or not but the art design and the narrative should only be judged in one way: whether we like it or not. There is no room for debate on that matter because we clearly overstretch the boundaries of what it is: a game.

And in that sense, for me, a game has its right to be sexist, racist, sadistic, as long as it's part of the narrative and the cohesion of its own universe.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590402
30/09/16 08:52 AM
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After 11 pages of the thread I still struggle to understand the definition of the word "sexism" which we all are talking here about.

For me sexism would be for example if the female heroes would be barred from being warriors or rangers and would only be allowed to be enchantresses. Or if they would not be allowed to invest more than 10 points in intelligence. Or if all other NPCs would be unwilling to talk to female heroes and would rather talk to the male heroes of the group.

So, genereally speaking, sexism for me is when some onedenies the women (or men) certain rights based on their gender or belittles their intelectuall/physical abilities.

And I do not see how the poses in the character selection screen belittle the female heroes. Yes, all the poses (male and female) are highly stylised and sexy - but how exactly does it belittle a woman's abilities if she is depicted as a sexy being? And wouldn't it in turn be sexist if one would insist that women have to be depicted as prudish and virtuous (because a woman cannot be trusted with her own good looks and needs to be protected from the prying eyes of would-be seducers)?

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Ayvah] #590404
30/09/16 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Ayvah
I don't see the male poses as equivalent as I'm not aware of any male human poses styled like ballet dancers.


What gave you the idea that this is what constitutes male sexiness? Have you ever stopped to wonder why a lot of women think fire fighters are sexy? Is it because fire fighters tend to pose like ballet dancers, or is it because a well trained male body working, or in a pose suggesting action is something that is really commonly thought of as how men go about being sexy.

If we go watch 1000 sucessfull atempts of a man picking up a girl at a bar, how many of them do you think did it with ballet poses?

There is a very simple question that anyone concerned about what levels of sex appeal suggestive stuff should be allowed in a creative medium can ask:

Should porn be illegal?

If the answer to this is no, then ask yourself a couple of cuestions regarding other and milder types of sexual content. Unless you end up being a contradictive hypocrite wanting to allow porn but ban really mild stuff, then you have demonstrated to yourself that you actually think it is ok for a game, or movie or book in theory to include something sexually suggestive, but for some reason you are just trying your hardest to invent a reason for why its wrong for this game in particular.

Unless you want to outright ban sexual stuff, then its ok for creative media with sexual undertones to be part of the market, and the frequency of them will be regulated by market forces. People buy what you like.
If you don't like something, don't buy it. But stop riding some imaginary stick moral horse around and make a fool of yourself.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Elwyn] #590441
30/09/16 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Elwyn
After 11 pages of the thread I still struggle to understand the definition of the word "sexism" which we all are talking here about.

For me sexism would be for example if the female heroes would be barred from being warriors or rangers and would only be allowed to be enchantresses. Or if they would not be allowed to invest more than 10 points in intelligence. Or if all other NPCs would be unwilling to talk to female heroes and would rather talk to the male heroes of the group.

So, genereally speaking, sexism for me is when some onedenies the women (or men) certain rights based on their gender or belittles their intelectuall/physical abilities.

And I do not see how the poses in the character selection screen belittle the female heroes. Yes, all the poses (male and female) are highly stylised and sexy - but how exactly does it belittle a woman's abilities if she is depicted as a sexy being? And wouldn't it in turn be sexist if one would insist that women have to be depicted as prudish and virtuous (because a woman cannot be trusted with her own good looks and needs to be protected from the prying eyes of would-be seducers)?


Sexism can also involve stereotyping, which is what I believe is happening here. The portrayal of women as sexy via poses and revealing clothing has been pretty dominant in the video game industry whereas the depiction of male heroes, though at time highly stylized like in this game, tends to be more diverse or at least less reliant on sex appeal.

The poses are sexist in the sense that they perpetuate this stereotype for female characters. They contribute to the idea that female characters must look sexy in order to be interesting or appealing.

It would indeed be sexist for us to say that all female characters should be prudish and virtuous, but that's not what we're trying to say here.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590443
30/09/16 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by cae37
The poses are sexist in the sense that they perpetuate this stereotype for female characters. They contribute to the idea that female characters must look sexy in order to be interesting or appealing.


As long as this is not true for all video games you really don't have an argument. If all females presented in video games were of the sexy variety, then you could argue that the medium enforces a stereotype.
However that is not the situation. What we have is an industry where it is common. At best you can argue that sexy women is common because the market make them popular.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread you need to think about if you want to argue against sexy women being allowed in media, or if you are simply complaining that something you don't like is popular.
Unless you are arguing that it should not be allowed to portray women in certain ways (which I don't think you are), you are just arguing for something popular to be less popular. Now given that the video game industry operates in a global free market economy, what would be your suggestion to make things people like to buy less popular?

The simple way to make things you don't like less popular ir to simply not buy them. The interesting question is what you think entitles you to have other people have less of something they like but you don't?
Women done >have to< be sexy in video games, its just common. So what?

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Skallewag] #590444
30/09/16 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by Ayvah
I don't see the male poses as equivalent as I'm not aware of any male human poses styled like ballet dancers.


What gave you the idea that this is what constitutes male sexiness? Have you ever stopped to wonder why a lot of women think fire fighters are sexy? Is it because fire fighters tend to pose like ballet dancers, or is it because a well trained male body working, or in a pose suggesting action is something that is really commonly thought of as how men go about being sexy.

If we go watch 1000 sucessfull atempts of a man picking up a girl at a bar, how many of them do you think did it with ballet poses?

There is a very simple question that anyone concerned about what levels of sex appeal suggestive stuff should be allowed in a creative medium can ask:

Should porn be illegal?

If the answer to this is no, then ask yourself a couple of cuestions regarding other and milder types of sexual content. Unless you end up being a contradictive hypocrite wanting to allow porn but ban really mild stuff, then you have demonstrated to yourself that you actually think it is ok for a game, or movie or book in theory to include something sexually suggestive, but for some reason you are just trying your hardest to invent a reason for why its wrong for this game in particular.

Unless you want to outright ban sexual stuff, then its ok for creative media with sexual undertones to be part of the market, and the frequency of them will be regulated by market forces. People buy what you like.
If you don't like something, don't buy it. But stop riding some imaginary stick moral horse around and make a fool of yourself.


We as a society create what constitutes sexy for everyone. It's why things like fashion are continually changing; our ideas of what makes someone sexy changes over time. This means that Larian can choose to do poses that fall into what we're used to or do poses that do something different. We wouldn't mind them doing something new that breaks away from sexist stereotypes.

I don't think we're talking about banning sexual undertones or sexual material, we just want a break from a very well-established norm. If someone had you continually eat different variations of cereal for a long time you'd still eventually get tired of it no?

Though it is true that the market supplies demand it also creates it. It's why when something new and interesting comes up we all jump on it. Consumers enjoy trying new things.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590446
30/09/16 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cae37
The poses are sexist in the sense that they perpetuate this stereotype for female characters. They contribute to the idea that female characters must look sexy in order to be interesting or appealing.


I have some layered objections to this.

Fist of all stereotyping is not a binary but comes in degrees. Some games, like Overwatch, use stereotypes as more central to the characters looks and behaviors. This is a good thing for that style, stereotyping is what helps us identify with the characters. In the case of D:OS2 the use of stereotyping is very mild in comparison.

Secondly, both the male and the female characters in D:OS2 are made very attractive on purpose (except for the weird faces?). Attractive does not mean sexy. For most characters they use the general stereotype that elegant/stylish females are attractive and males are attractive when looking dominant/cool. There is nothing wrong with this approach and the females are not being singled out in the slightest here.

If you don't like this approach, or if you are intimidated by attractive men/women, or if you feel a game is more authentic with less attractive people in center, then that is perfectly fine and I will stand by your opinion. But don't try to paint this as sexism or oppression of women, because it's not; it's simply an artistic style that you personally don't enjoy.

Last edited by GepardenK; 30/09/16 03:29 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590447
30/09/16 03:22 PM
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Ah, yes "trying something new". I agree, people do enjoy trying something new and innovative if its good. Now are you arguing that this does not exist in the market place? Because if it does then people are trying it and allowing it success based on its popularity. That is already happening and has been happening for decades.

What you are talking about does exist. Some people do prefer that and buy games with that in mind. Some people like to have exactly this kind of thing be part of the games they play (including women). As long as you are not talking about banning something then whatever is popular is going to regulate the sucess of products and dictate who gets to stick around and make more products. For now this is an element prominent in many sucessfull products.

Have you ever been to a convention? Ever seen any of the women who go there in full cosplay? Do they tend to pick really modest outfits from modestly dressed characters, or is it a total cleavagefest?
Its not just men propagate the stereotype of scantily clad women. Women take an equal part in that as well, and have done so for a long time.

If you would really really like to see your moral sensibilities catered to in the video game market then put your money where your mouth is and try to create that type of game yourself. It is easier than ever to become a video game developer. You could gather people who share your sentiment. But as long as all you do is talk about how other people should gamble with their money because of your cultural preferences, then why should anyone take you seriously?

Edit: GepardenK +1 smile

Last edited by Skallewag; 30/09/16 03:24 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Skallewag] #590448
30/09/16 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by cae37
The poses are sexist in the sense that they perpetuate this stereotype for female characters. They contribute to the idea that female characters must look sexy in order to be interesting or appealing.


As long as this is not true for all video games you really don't have an argument. If all females presented in video games were of the sexy variety, then you could argue that the medium enforces a stereotype.
However that is not the situation. What we have is an industry where it is common. At best you can argue that sexy women is common because the market make them popular.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread you need to think about if you want to argue against sexy women being allowed in media, or if you are simply complaining that something you don't like is popular.
Unless you are arguing that it should not be allowed to portray women in certain ways (which I don't think you are), you are just arguing for something popular to be less popular. Now given that the video game industry operates in a global free market economy, what would be your suggestion to make things people like to buy less popular?

The simple way to make things you don't like less popular ir to simply not buy them. The interesting question is what you think entitles you to have other people have less of something they like but you don't?
Women done >have to< be sexy in video games, its just common. So what?


So I have to wait until an issue becomes all pervasive before I can argue about it? That's just ridiculous. You don't speak up about a problem once it becomes too large, you speak up about it before it ever reaches that point.

You're talking about popularity as if all consumers who pay for their games agree that the way sexiness works in videogames is awesome and enjoyable, which is not the case. The fact that these posts garner so much controversy is proof of that.

Like I said previously, the market can supply demand but it can also create it. The issue of sex appeal has not been created by the consumer only, it has been created by devs as well. Just as they can create games that rely on these tired old stereotypes they can choose to create games that don't. I should also add that going for variety instead of repeating the same choices can also be a good sales tactic.

What entitles you to tell me that I can't ask for more of something? Aren't you doing the same thing I'm doing, telling me that I should be ok with what we have because you don't have the same perspective I do?

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Skallewag] #590449
30/09/16 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Skallewag
Ah, yes "trying something new". I agree, people do enjoy trying something new and innovative if its good. Now are you arguing that this does not exist in the market place? Because if it does then people are trying it and allowing it success based on its popularity. That is already happening and has been happening for decades.

What you are talking about does exist. Some people do prefer that and buy games with that in mind. Some people like to have exactly this kind of thing be part of the games they play (including women). As long as you are not talking about banning something then whatever is popular is going to regulate the sucess of products and dictate who gets to stick around and make more products. For now this is an element prominent in many sucessfull products.

Have you ever been to a convention? Ever seen any of the women who go there in full cosplay? Do they tend to pick really modest outfits from modestly dressed characters, or is it a total cleavagefest?
Its not just men propagate the stereotype of scantily clad women. Women take an equal part in that as well, and have done so for a long time.

If you would really really like to see your moral sensibilities catered to in the video game market then put your money where your mouth is and try to create that type of game yourself. It is easier than ever to become a video game developer. You could gather people who share your sentiment. But as long as all you do is talk about how other people should gamble with their money because of your cultural preferences, then why should anyone take you seriously?

Edit: GepardenK +1 smile


So I'm asking people to gamble with their money now? By asking for more variety and diversity for female characters? Lol.

Should every gamer be forced to create a game to fulfill a need that the gaming industry can't supply, or to fill a vacuum in said industry? If the answer is no, then I'm just as entitled to voicing my complaints as anyone regardless of how much you disagree with me or believe my opinion is silly.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590451
30/09/16 03:58 PM
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That depends on what your argument is. I'm sorry to say but you are not framing them very well.

For example, one of my positions on this is that art should not be controlled. That creators should be allowed to freely express whatever they envision and that famous artists will be those whos work a lot of people agree is worth their money and attention.

So no, when I say artists should be free to create what they want, I am not doing the same thing as you when you start rambling about how you find certain types of art somehow problematic.

Ofc you can voice your opinion that you think its wrong that some things tied to human sexuality happen to be popular.
But unless you bring any convincing arguments I am going to call you out for having poor arguments.

So lets hear it more clearly, why exactly is wrong with having some forms of artistic media present women in a sexually appealing way.
(and before you settle for the "because it creates bla bla stereotype X about women) keep in mind what I said about women helping to create and popularize these views of female sexuality. If you are going to argue that a game creates this view of women, you need to:

A) describe why that is wrong, and how it is not sexist by you to assume women do not have any meaningfull agency in how their sexuality is expressed in culture.

B) show the connection. If your argument is this you need to somehow demonstrate that games actually does cause whtever it is you think they cause.

But lets hear your actual arguments. Perhaps this isnt at all the direction you were heading in.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Skallewag] #590453
30/09/16 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Skallewag
That depends on what your argument is. I'm sorry to say but you are not framing them very well.

For example, one of my positions on this is that art should not be controlled. That creators should be allowed to freely express whatever they envision and that famous artists will be those whos work a lot of people agree is worth their money and attention.

So no, when I say artists should be free to create what they want, I am not doing the same thing as you when you start rambling about how you find certain types of art somehow problematic.

Ofc you can voice your opinion that you think its wrong that some things tied to human sexuality happen to be popular.
But unless you bring any convincing arguments I am going to call you out for having poor arguments.

So lets hear it more clearly, why exactly is wrong with having some forms of artistic media present women in a sexually appealing way.
(and before you settle for the "because it creates bla bla stereotype X about women) keep in mind what I said about women helping to create and popularize these views of female sexuality. If you are going to argue that a game creates this view of women, you need to:

A) describe why that is wrong, and how it is not sexist by you to assume women do not have any meaningfull agency in how their sexuality is expressed in culture.

B) show the connection. If your argument is this you need to somehow demonstrate that games actually does cause whtever it is you think they cause.

But lets hear your actual arguments. Perhaps this isnt at all the direction you were heading in.


Way to backpedal.

Why should I have to re-phrase my arguments for you when I have been doing that this whole time? I've spent enough time arguing with you about this as it is, I'm not about to go on another long speech so that you can finally understand what I'm saying. I don't want to have to repeat everything I've said just because you've failed to see where myself and those who think like me are coming from.

EDIT: And of course I went on another long speech. bleh.

I mean Ayvah, the person contributing most to the thread, has provided argument upon argument and proof upon proof but none of it seems to resonate with those who disagree. S/he has more than addressed all the questions you're asking here and yet you still require more explanation.

I'm respectfully agreeing to disagreeing.

I will say, though, that there is nothing wrong with having sexual undertones present in video games. I believe that video games can be understood as an art form, and as an art form video games should be free to express any part of the human experience, including sexuality.

The problem with the way the gaming industry depicts sexuality is that it (sexuality),

1) Tends to be emphasized on female characters over male characters. (I emphasize tends here because there clearly are sexualized male characters as well).

2) Tends to be used as a cheap advertising tactic to get straight male gamers to purchase a game. How many game advertisements have you seen with a semi-naked female character enticing you to try the game out?

3) It is at times the only defining trait or at least the most defining trait of a female character. Ivy from Soul Calibur? Quiet from MGSV?

4) Contributes to the idea that a female character can only be interesting if she looks sexually attractive.

5) Tends to be used in an unrealistic fashion i.e. bikini chain-mail armor.

6) Limits diversity in body types and shapes for women. At least if we assume that "sexy" is defined as being skinny with large breasts, which I think is the idea of sexy that most devs and consumers focus on.

7) Is typically not used to create female characters with a sexual agenda of their own, but as characters whose looks indicate that they can and should be exploited by the main character.

I could list a few more but these are the ones that jump out at me. Feel free to disagree with me on any of these points, but at least for now I'm stepping away from this discussion.

Last edited by cae37; 30/09/16 08:55 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Skallewag] #590454
30/09/16 04:45 PM
30/09/16 04:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 40
cae37 Offline

apprentice
cae37  Offline

apprentice

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by Skallewag

For example, one of my positions on this is that art should not be controlled. That creators should be allowed to freely express whatever they envision and that famous artists will be those whos work a lot of people agree is worth their money and attention.


But a lot of us are disagreeing about the art displayed here. So I guess that means the artists at Larian will not be famous? So maybe they should change things then?

Your logic is betraying you here.

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