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Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590456
30/09/16 05:16 PM
30/09/16 05:16 PM
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Sordak Offline
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"variety and diversity"

Such nice words.

By that you mean what exactly? You mean that they make a gorillion different body types? what for?
Look at statistics. Nobody in MMOs plays femael Dwarves or female beast races. Not men not women.

Making unattractive female body designs is a waste of money as nobody ever uses them.
Im glad we got female lizards in this game but face the facts: Nobody needs ugly femael models.

This is something i have seen pushed a lot as of late "realistic" women, by which they mean ugly. This thing infests pretty much any hipster game by now and guess what nobody cares.

People want to see beautifull humans men and women thats why almost all male character models are muscular and almost all female models are slim.

Its a simple matter of cost efficiency.

its also funny that the same guys that argue its about "realism" now want Land Whales as Warriors.

Last edited by Sordak; 30/09/16 05:18 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590459
30/09/16 05:46 PM
30/09/16 05:46 PM
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You know, for all the people here arguing about the "female" models and sexism....what about the "male" ones? What of the stereotypes inherent in those? The traditional values being pushed? The fact that every single concern one raises about those "sexist" values plaguing female characters is mirrored in some manner in male characters?

Do those issues not matter? If you raise one concern why not both? And if a game does indeed perpetuate both (ie D:OS) than why focus on just one side?

I find many of the points raised in this thread both moot in the clear bias shown, overblown, and self-indulgent in a false bid to raise concern for an unconcerned party that clearly doesnt want to be represented by them.

The goal posts of those with concerns and the envelope they use to package and structure those concerns keep getting pushed further and wider.

We've gone from a singular character model pose all the way to indirect historic sexism (which is ridiculous to bring up since the word didnt' rightly exist at the time and gender roles were embraced -> don't push your own moral values by evaluating a culture/time not your own as wrong or unjust) to arguing "sexism" in an industry and how it should be "improved" or made "better" cause obviously moral social "progressive" values are so utterly important to a commercial product or artistic creation.

I'm not trying to be scathing in my interpretation of others views but I am flummoxed and indignant that an individual(s) can come off as feeingl so....utterly like they have the moral high ground and are simply informing the rest of us shallow mortals how we can be improved in their infinite mercy and understanding.

Once again, I'll say it: you're arguments for change are failing on nearly all fronts. You're discussions would make far more progress by arguing for add-ons that create a more inclusive environment to satisfy yourselves. Arguing for adding in a naked barbarian doing ballet would do more for more you than arguing why a female model pose is "elegant" and "unreal." In fact, I dare say, many disagreeing with you about sexism and such would be right behind you in wishing for a modern dancing Conana character.....hell, I would. That sounds fun and different and doesn't detract from anything at all

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Sordak] #590461
30/09/16 05:52 PM
30/09/16 05:52 PM
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cae37 Offline

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Originally Posted by Sordak
"variety and diversity"

Such nice words.

By that you mean what exactly? You mean that they make a gorillion different body types? what for?
Look at statistics. Nobody in MMOs plays femael Dwarves or female beast races. Not men not women.

Making unattractive female body designs is a waste of money as nobody ever uses them.
Im glad we got female lizards in this game but face the facts: Nobody needs ugly femael models.

This is something i have seen pushed a lot as of late "realistic" women, by which they mean ugly. This thing infests pretty much any hipster game by now and guess what nobody cares.

People want to see beautifull humans men and women thats why almost all male character models are muscular and almost all female models are slim.

Its a simple matter of cost efficiency.

its also funny that the same guys that argue its about "realism" now want Land Whales as Warriors.


Do either of these characters look unattractive or unappealing to you?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Jzt0HGixY/maxresdefault.jpg

http://cdn.segmentnext.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Overwatch-Mei-Guide.jpg

Asking for diversity in female character design does not mean going, "LOL let's make all female characters completely unattractive and unappealing amirite? wink XD XD."


Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590463
30/09/16 06:01 PM
30/09/16 06:01 PM
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Sordak Offline
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tumblr hair and problem glasses. kekd.

If thats the "diversity" you want then no, i want none of that.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590465
30/09/16 06:05 PM
30/09/16 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cae37

Do either of these characters look unattractive or unappealing to you?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Jzt0HGixY/maxresdefault.jpg

http://cdn.segmentnext.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Overwatch-Mei-Guide.jpg

Asking for diversity in female character design does not mean going, "LOL let's make all female characters completely unattractive and unappealing amirite? wink XD XD."



Those are still stereotypes of another flavor ya know?

........Also, glasses would be too sexy if you think the poses go too far already :P SHE HAS A POWER LEVEL OVER 9000!!
<3 <3

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590474
30/09/16 07:08 PM
30/09/16 07:08 PM
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I don't care if you're an artist or animator and think you know what good character design looks like - I'm a SJW and I know better than you. ALL characters, both male and female, should look like the global average for each gender (in a binary sense, of course). Every video game female should look like the world's average female, but there also should be an option to make her look male to represent the trans community. Likewise for male characters. It is important for players to be able to identify with their characters so what I think would be best is infinite customization options so that everyone is happy and nobody will have any complaints about the characters in your game - that is reasonable, I am sure. I would know this, I'm a SJW.

I also don't care if you're including lizards, elves, dwarves or whatever else as playable characters. There is a high chance that depending on what proportions and features you choose for your fantasy characters, I will be triggered. Do you really want to risk me making a blog post about this? I have 12 followers on tumblr who will be sure to see and boycott your so called 'game'.

I really hope you'll take my morally righteous opinion as law and disregard the hateful bigots who disagree with me.

Thank you.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Sordak] #590476
30/09/16 07:30 PM
30/09/16 07:30 PM
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Lyrhe Offline
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Originally Posted by Sordak
tumblr hair and problem glasses. kekd.

If thats the "diversity" you want then no, i want none of that.


[Linked Image]


It's nature trying to warn us.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590481
30/09/16 09:09 PM
30/09/16 09:09 PM
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cae37 Offline

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Well I hope none of you play Overwatch if you get triggered by Zarya and Mei's design because they remind you of tumblr feminists. Even though they stand well enough as their own characters and are pretty well-liked by the community.

For all the accusations that we're the oversensitive and ridiculous ones, you guys are pretty sensitive and ridiculous yourselves.

Last edited by cae37; 30/09/16 09:11 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590483
30/09/16 09:28 PM
30/09/16 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cae37
Well I hope none of you play Overwatch if you get triggered by Zarya and Mei's design because they remind you of tumblr feminists. Even though they stand well enough as their own characters and are pretty well-liked by the community.

For all the accusations that we're the oversensitive and ridiculous ones, you guys are pretty sensitive and ridiculous yourselves.


No but they just said that they didn't like them, they didn't demand that the characters should change. They are allowed to have a personal preference.

If on the other hand they had gone over to the Overwatch forums and demanded change because of some sense of righteous social superiority (Saying something like "the characters must change because they perpetuate tumblerism and social hysteria scheming" or some crap like that) then you would have a point and I would be right there with you defending the Overwatch design.

But as far as I know they don't. They probably just stay away from the game or from those characters and play something they enjoy instead. Weird that.

Last edited by GepardenK; 30/09/16 09:32 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590484
30/09/16 09:35 PM
30/09/16 09:35 PM
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Lyrhe Offline
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Originally Posted by cae37
Even though they stand well enough as their own characters and are pretty well-liked by the community.


Because - oh wonder - no serious player gives a damn about stuff like that and instead bases a perception of a certain character on actual ingame value and not which agenda you're trying to push with it. (Except for a few extrema)

It's however blatant pandering to the worst of all minorities.


Originally Posted by cae37
For all the accusations that we're the oversensitive and ridiculous ones, you guys are pretty sensitive and ridiculous yourselves.


You tried to push this completely unrelated topic and these completely unrelated characters into this thread and this discussion. It's you that has the need to justify their existance, even if nobody cares.

That's the definition of being oversensitive.


Originally Posted by cae37
you guys


Also... did you just assume my gender identity? Triggered. hahaha

Last edited by Lyrhe; 30/09/16 09:38 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590487
30/09/16 09:59 PM
30/09/16 09:59 PM
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Skallewag Offline
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Lol, thats so cute.
Sorry but a few people ranting on a forum does not equal millions of customers voting with their wallet.
The game should not "obviously change" because a few nitwits on this forum feels they are having their moral sinsibilities trampled by this game.

Instead of making a long speech of fail, how about you adress the basic flaw of your entire argument.
Not all games available use the "naked women card", thus even customers who share your sensibilities have a choice, yet despite this choice having existed for decades, the naked ladies games are (according to you) the majority of games.
That means a majority of people like that flavor of game and buy that flavor of game.

If you want to argue that other people should have less of something you do not like, bring a convincing argument to the table. But remember, you are not arguing for your favourite flavor of game to have the right to exist, it already has. What you are arguing for there to be less of other peoples favourite flavor of game. You don't give a damn if people like chocholate ice cream, you prefer banana mint ice cream and there should be more of that and less chocholate because you want it.

See how silly that sounds? Untill you provide some form of statistical argument for why your analysis of the video game market is correct and why a majority of games studios analysis of the market is incorrect, all you are saying that your impopular opinion is more important "because reasons".
(While you are at it how about you go get a job as a market consultant for some large video game industry. Since you have this unique understanding of what people "actually" want you should be able to make a fortune with this special knowledge, right?)

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590488
30/09/16 10:01 PM
30/09/16 10:01 PM
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Also @ Lyrhe, many many +1. We gotta show them whos the attack helicopters around here. ^^

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590491
30/09/16 10:37 PM
30/09/16 10:37 PM
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Grondoth Offline
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Please blow up this thread.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590492
30/09/16 10:44 PM
30/09/16 10:44 PM
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cae37 Offline

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I see I should have written "cue triggered fanboys" right after my post lol.

@lyrhe if you had read what we've said you would have understood why I posted those pictures. But sure, say whatever fits your narrative of what I've said.

So designing female characters away from the norm is pandering? Even when they are well liked and received? Lol. You do realize how silly you sound right?

@skalleywag

When did I provide an analysis of the video game market lol? The only thing I've suggested is that variety and diversity can be profitable, and I don't think I need evidence to make that point. Of course with that I'm implying that female character diversity can improve videogame sales, which I also think is a fair assumption to make. More varied heroes=greater number of relatable characters. The more varied the characters the greater the chance more people will find it worth buying.

If you want an example look at Overwatch, an awesome game with a wide variety of female and male characters. It is highly succesful and well enjoyed by pretty much every gamer. Creating more varied female characters does not spell the doom of the gaming industry, even though that's what you want me to believe.

If you see money as votes, then a lot of people voted for more diversity.

Lyrhe is right in one regard, though. This has gotten too off-topic and benefits no one. I will stop talking about this particular topic unless it moves back to OP's post and DOS2.

Last edited by cae37; 30/09/16 11:11 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Grondoth] #590494
30/09/16 10:53 PM
30/09/16 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Grondoth
Please blow up this thread.


Nah this is great, its the unofficial shit post thread so that the rest of the forum stays pretty.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590496
30/09/16 11:02 PM
30/09/16 11:02 PM
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So, in conclusion. Stop getting wood for characters made out of wood.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590497
30/09/16 11:18 PM
30/09/16 11:18 PM
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Lyrhe Offline
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Originally Posted by cae37
I see I should have written "cue triggered fanboys" right after my post lol.


Ad-Hominem, keep it going.
Also you assumed my gender-identity again.

Originally Posted by cae37
@lyrhe if you had read what we've said you would have understood why I posted those pictures. But sure, say whatever fits your narrative of what I've said.


I read it and I still think it was a poorly executed out of the context strawman.

Originally Posted by cae37

So designing female characters away from the norm is pandering? Even when they are well liked and received?


In fact, Zarya is not that well liked because of her out of the norm design - if you believe that you are honestly out of your mind and should probably come out of your cloud Palace.

She's one of the most criticized heroes due to her design and that's the reason why a fair part jumped for the olympic skin; to change that god dam aweful tumblr muh-stronk-womyn hairstyle. We shouldn't forget here that you can't see your own characters face/model in Overwatch making these slightly unorthodox design choices irrelevant for most people anyway. She's well received because she's an incredible fun tank with great damage and an even better ultimate.

Originally Posted by cae37

Lol. You do realize how silly you sound right?


lmao no lol

Originally Posted by sacreddark
Nah this is great, its the unofficial shit post thread so that the rest of the forum stays pretty.


Notice how it is slowly derailing because of their own bait? I called it a few sites ago and still believe that none of them are actually really argumenting out of believe but just to troll the rest of the forum.





Last edited by Lyrhe; 30/09/16 11:27 PM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Lyrhe] #590503
30/09/16 11:33 PM
30/09/16 11:33 PM
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cae37 Offline

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Originally Posted by Lyrhe
Originally Posted by cae37
I see I should have written "cue triggered fanboys" right after my post lol.


Ad-Hominem, keep it going.
Also you assumed my gender-identity again.

Originally Posted by cae37
@lyrhe if you had read what we've said you would have understood why I posted those pictures. But sure, say whatever fits your narrative of what I've said.


I read it and I still think it was a poorly executed out of the context strawman.

Originally Posted by cae37

So designing female characters away from the norm is pandering? Even when they are well liked and received?


In fact, Zarya is not that well liked because of her out of the norm design - if you believe that you are honestly out of your mind and should probably come out of your cloud Palace.

She's one of the most criticized heroes due to her design and that's the reason why a fair part jumped for the olympic skin; to change that god dam aweful tumblr muh-stronk-womyn hairstyle. We shouldn't forget here that you can't see your own characters face/model in Overwatch making these slightly unorthodox design choices irrelevant for most people anyway. She's well received because she's an incredible fun tank with great damage and an even better ultimate.

Originally Posted by cae37

Lol. You do realize how silly you sound right?


lmao no lol



I assumed you were being facetious about the gender identity stuff. I'll stop with the gendered language.

If Zarya is so unliked where are the petitions of gamers demanding she be taken out of the game? Where's the fan outrage and the hate over such a god-awful design? I even took a look at the OW forums and found no evidence of this outrage you speak of. You're drawing at straws.

If you're trying to prove she's an unpopular character you're not doing a very good job at all. She's fun to use and looks badass, what's not to like?

Bleh. Now I'm done.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590507
30/09/16 11:52 PM
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Yes you do in fact need to provide some form of evidence for your position to be legitimate.

You say that there is too much of a specific type of game and that type of game needs to make room for another type of game.
That means you could be arguing one of two things.
1) Either the other type of game is not available at all so people who might want that do not even have the option to support it.

2) or the thing you want is simply less popular and thus fewer people buy it. SO you want it to be more popular, and the "solution" you suggest is to simply produce less of the first type of game.

Do you actually not understand how the free market works? The video game industry does not exist within a planned economy where "the party" decide what and how much of everything should be produced.
It exists in a global free market economy. If a studio decided to cave in to unfounded ideas like yours and simply go against what the actual market desires from them they will fail as a studio and a new one that understands what people want would take its place.

If most games have nudity in them thats because people like it. You do not get to decide what other people like and get to have. Now go away with your puritan nonsense.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: cae37] #590508
01/10/16 12:02 AM
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Lyrhe Offline
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Originally Posted by cae37

I assumed you were being facetious about the gender identity stuff. I'll stop with the gendered language.


Thanks, my pronouns are God emperor/Mr President and Mr President God Emperor.

Originally Posted by cae37

If Zarya is so unliked where are the petitions of gamers demanding she be taken out of the game? Where's the fan outrage and the hate over such a god-awful design?


Why would you need that? Why do you assume most people give the same shit about something visual irrelevant like that? In fact that just refutes your own argument from earlier on. Get in your mindset that there are people that don't feel the need to cry about imaginary problems.

And yet you are here being sensitive about the simple fact that people don't pick her because they put out their fleshrod to an androgynous pink haired musclegirl? Do you really think the guy picking her for the perfect comp. in a ranked is doing it because he likes her design so much?

Do you really wanna argue the normal beauty standard is a 120kg female bodybuilder with pink hairs?

Originally Posted by cae37
I even took a look at the OW forums and found no evidence of this outrage you speak of.


If you look around on the internet you will find somewhere a salechart of the different skins in the game - there's a reason why (except for the olympic skin) zarya has the worst salenumbers of all heros.

Originally Posted by cae37

If you're trying to prove she's an unpopular character you're not doing a very good job at all. She's fun to use [..]


I never did that and never said that, you should try reading my post again.

Originally Posted by cae37
[...] and looks badass, what's not to like?


She looks more like a caricature of stereotypes as if someone tried to hard to make an epic strong woman character. There are other and better ways to do that.

Last edited by Lyrhe; 01/10/16 12:03 AM.
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