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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2016
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I think the xp system should stay the same. If you want to get the strongest all around you must kill/loot/pillage everything all around but it will also makes you no different from the bad guys you are fighting against.
You will be just another power hungry tyrant. Which is sure thing a possible playtrought in a good rpg game but it should have some drawbacks.
Like you get base negative attitude from npcs, guards attack at sight, some dialogues and quest are not accessable, npcs refuse to talk with you etc.
This could be achieved by a karma system. Basicly if you do something moraly questionable like murder innocents or do a quest the "easy" way you will get negative karma. If you do good thing you get positive karma.
This system should be character specific not party so in multiplayer there will be another reason to do quest differently and to turn agaist each other.
I don't know if the game is too far into development to implement such a system but i played some rpg games where karma system did miracles to replayability.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2016
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The core principle of the game is: No matter who you kill, the quest should still work. At least the main quest, side quests not so sure.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
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The core principle of the game is: No matter who you kill, the quest should still work. At least the main quest, side quests not so sure. Only the main quest (and possibly the origin quests) are going to be guaranteed to work. If Bob gives you a quest to find 15 Bear Arses, and after you take it, instead you kill him and set fire to his shop, you're going to fail that quest, as you should.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2014
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Part of the problem, as I see it, is that killing defenceless civilians and non-aggressive NPCs has no real consequence and pays too well. The magisters don't act as a police force (arresting you and taking your gear & cash away, or beating seven shades of fewmets out of you if you attack one of their own reducing constitution and number of hands, and then taking your gear & cash away). Loss of reputation does not seem to have any great effect either.
It might help if the tarriff for run of the mill NPCs were reduced to say 5XP, with 10XP for a really tough one. That way the reward for beating a high level, well-equipped enemy compared to a child reflects the amount you learn from each encounter.
Also, if unprovoked kills each affect your reputation with the result that over time you become increasingly hated, resulting in higher prices to buy and lower prices when you sell gear, this provides a non-XP penalty which could make the game increasingly difficult.
NPC's might also be made tougher with no increase in XP for killing them because they have started buying personal armour (valueless to others) or attending kung po classes (kung fu for chickens).
The idea is to level the playing field for different approaches to the game, not to force one style of play on everyone.
Someone must have spiked her senna pod drink!
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2016
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Assigning only small amounts of XP and loot to NPCs that aren't intended to be fought is probably the best solution. It still gives players the flexibility to play how they want, but it doesn't reward senseless violence or penalize those who opt not to kill needlessly.
I do feel tougher opponents, such as the guards, should be rewarding to fight, I feel the guards are in a good place of difficulty versus reward.
My party would generally complete all quests associated with an individual and then kill them (at least, we killed all guards). This was for the extra XP and loot, which was sometimes sizeable, such as the case of killing the 1st guards encountered on the beach.
The main exception to our killing was individuals who were shopkeepers, as killing them would prevent us from getting new items offered each level.
I am very pleased that killing shopkeepers no longer rewards ALL items they had been sold, this was very abusable in DoS1.
Last edited by error3; 08/10/16 05:57 PM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2016
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Assigning only small amounts of XP and loot to NPCs that aren't intended to be fought is probably the best solution. It still gives players the flexibility to play how they want, but it doesn't reward senseless violence or penalize those who opt not to kill needlessly.
I do feel tougher opponents, such as the guards, should be rewarding to fight, I feel the guards are in a good place of difficulty versus reward.
My party would generally complete all quests associated with an individual and then kill them. This was for the extra XP and loot, which was sometimes sizeable, such as the case of killing the 1st guards encountered on the beach.
The main exception to our killing was individuals who were shopkeepers, as killing them would prevent us from getting new items offered each level.
I am very pleased that killing shopkeepers no longer rewards ALL items they had been sold, this was very abusable in DoS1. It should though. Makes no sense why killing someone doesn't give me their stuff (is what they sell and wear). Also, killing = time = effort = reward....players should be rewarded for killing. And it's not like the game is balanced around it. It's just gonna over level you and then even out at the end for everyone like in D:OS If people really care. A karma system or greater effects of reputation could be argued for and that'd be nice. Or have guards try to arrest you and so on
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2016
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[quote=aj0413]
It should though. Makes no sense why killing someone doesn't give me their stuff (is what they sell and wear).
[/quote]
True, it isn't realistic. However, killing a shopkeeper for all of their equipment and skill books trivializes the importance of gold, and even finding items.
Also, should every guard we kill drop a full set of armor and weapons? That would be a lot of equipment we'd be looting after every fight. Should any of it be worth using, should it sell for much if we get so much of it? Pretty soon you'd be looting tons of garbage just so you could run it back to sell to a shopkeeper who you'd just kill to take all of their stuff anyway.
It's a balance decision. Getting a few items that actually have value as drops is far more interesting and engaging than a large amount of items that quickly become meaningless.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2016
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Killing normal NPCs is hardly a matter of time or effort, at least if you already gained some levels. They would have to make them much stronger, if every thing they own should drop or they need to lower the sell value much more.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2016
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Killing normal NPCs is hardly a matter of time or effort, at least if you already gained some levels. They would have to make them much stronger, if every thing they own should drop or they need to lower the sell value much more. Wait for it wait for it.....the answer to all the problems of killing having too many benefits and little costs.........karma system! Or hell just use the existing reputation system as a ad hoc karma system -_-
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2016
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Seems like the conversation has changed a little since the last time I posted so I will give my two cents as well on the subject of killing to gain xp after the quest completes.
I am a long time PnP roleplaying game player and the systems for PnP pretty much address and take care of all of these issues. If larian should so choose to keep a player from taking advantage of the game system as it stands now which it seems like people are by killing quest givers after completing the quests (shame on you people for even doing it) Then the devs should set a flag that makes the npc give them 0 experience for assassinating them or if they are lower level than the npc 1/2 experience for killing them in an actual fight. Most PnP games have this sort of methodology. However if someone is evil or kills a vendor for any reason they should get all of the loot including skill books, gold, and items that the vendor had when the player killed them and only give 1/2 experience if they get to fight the character or 0 experience if the character assassinated them.
The main issue seems to be that people are thinking that experience is to be maximized this is in fact what is called meta gaming using the rules of a system to min/max your character is meta gaming. Using your knowledge of a system in order to break it is meta gaming. Forcing a game developer to put rules into a system they should not have to worry about is caused by meta gaming. If you were the character would you really stab the person after completing the quest and having the reward you? After all they might higher you for another job later on.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2016
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Seems like the conversation has changed a little since the last time I posted so I will give my two cents as well on the subject of killing to gain xp after the quest completes.
I am a long time PnP roleplaying game player and the systems for PnP pretty much address and take care of all of these issues. If larian should so choose to keep a player from taking advantage of the game system as it stands now which it seems like people are by killing quest givers after completing the quests (shame on you people for even doing it) Then the devs should set a flag that makes the npc give them 0 experience for assassinating them or if they are lower level than the npc 1/2 experience for killing them in an actual fight. Most PnP games have this sort of methodology. However if someone is evil or kills a vendor for any reason they should get all of the loot including skill books, gold, and items that the vendor had when the player killed them and only give 1/2 experience if they get to fight the character or 0 experience if the character assassinated them.
The main issue seems to be that people are thinking that experience is to be maximized this is in fact what is called meta gaming using the rules of a system to min/max your character is meta gaming. Using your knowledge of a system in order to break it is meta gaming. Forcing a game developer to put rules into a system they should not have to worry about is caused by meta gaming. If you were the character would you really stab the person after completing the quest and having the reward you? After all they might higher you for another job later on. Met gaming shouldn't be accounted for explicitly. It's silly to expect a dev to in an rpg. They should just be helping guide things so all metas have a place. I don't really like the ideas you have *shrug* I much prefer the Bovine Defense Initiate solution to things. Or the Balfour Gate solution. Have some really powerful acts of God angels or monsters or NPCs spawn to smack you into place.....and should you some how be high enough level or skilled enough to get through that as well? Well, you rightly deserve to be a badass and tell balance to cry in a corner somewhere as you break the in game universe over you knee for amusement.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2016
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The problem is, even if you would use such overpowered beings. If they can't see through things like 'sneaking' you could just exploit them to death. 
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2016
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The problem is, even if you would use such overpowered beings. If they can't see through things like 'sneaking' you could just exploit them to death. Exactly lol which is why exploits like sneak are being fixed in AI but hey I like BDI plan for punishing meta gaming .... maybe I'm hard headed and masochistic but I'd be slaughtering cows all day as level one to attempt to get a shot at killing that level 50 monster as soon as I start the game. And then id smash my head against that monster till I beat it 10000 tries later and proceed to curb stomp everything else with level 50 gear and a massive xp gain to level up several times -> reward my stubborn fanatical love of killing all things bovine and their protectors ;p
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2016
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The main issue seems to be that people are thinking that experience is to be maximized
It isn't? This is news to me. I enjoy having more health, hitting harder, and having more cool abilities. XP maxing allows for more of this. This makes the game fun. Fighting enemies is fun too.
If you were the character would you really stab the person after completing the quest and having the reward you?
Are you suggesting the game should only be targeting those interested in playing a lawful good archetype and are interested primarily in RP? It seems we'd be excluding a large portion of the people on these forums if we didn't balance the game with the others in mind too. If a game designer creates a system that is more rewarding to one play style than another, players will notice, and they will gravitate towards greater rewards. Not balancing and blaming players for using the system available to them is just lazy. Why the opposition to balancing XP rewards?
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2016
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The main issue seems to be that people are thinking that experience is to be maximized
It isn't? This is news to me. I enjoy having more health, hitting harder, and having more cool abilities. XP maxing allows for more of this. This makes the game fun. Fighting enemies is fun too.
If you were the character would you really stab the person after completing the quest and having the reward you?
Are you suggesting the game should only be targeting those interested in playing a lawful good archetype and are interested primarily in RP? It seems we'd be excluding a large portion of the people on these forums if we didn't balance the game with the others in mind too. If a game designer creates a system that is more rewarding to one play style than another, players will notice, and they will gravitate towards greater rewards. Not balancing and blaming players for using the system available to them is just lazy. Why the opposition to balancing XP rewards? ...Cause then you strip the rewards from being evil in a meaningful way? I redirect you to the Bovine Initiative plan I proposed above.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2016
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I redirect you to the Bovine Initiative plan I proposed above.
So you propose all-powerful beings swoop in to punish players for attempting to get extra XP? I suppose that would stop all killing in town, but there's plenty of developer intended fights that break out in town. Would the gods just turn a blind eye to these? How would players know which fights were ok, and which they would get punished for? Seems like a band-aid attempt that falls short and removes player freedom to make choices.
...Cause then you strip the rewards from being evil in a meaningful way?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2016
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I redirect you to the Bovine Initiative plan I proposed above.
So you propose all-powerful beings swoop in to punish players for attempting to get extra XP? I suppose that would stop all killing in town, but there's plenty of developer intended fights that break out in town. Would the gods just turn a blind eye to these? How would players know which fights were ok, and which they would get punished for? Seems like a band-aid attempt that falls short and removes player freedom to make choices.
...Cause then you strip the rewards from being evil in a meaningful way?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Not all powerful, just powerful enough that you actually have to work for your reward. Wouldn't stop killing but make a player think if it was worth the effort or if they could handle the follow through. Flags for how and when the BDI would be activated is a simple enough solution. Many people were receptive to this in Witcher 3 exactly cause it allows for player freedom and rewards you for overcoming challenge if you actually beat back the BDI. ....If you take away xp for killing innocents or make it near non existent....you take away the reward for killing them and doing the fight and the time spent. A fight and a death should always be meaningfully rewarded. Hell make all NPCs higher level :P so the fights have some difficulty. Whatever. But telling me I cant kill that one woman after completing her quest and expect a reward for that killing is the same as telling me my actions are meaningless unless it agrees with a certain playstyle EDIT: As for when the BDI would be activated? That's simple. Just place a symbol or name color to those under GODs watch. When an encounter is meant to take place in town for some reason the symbol can go away..... ...Or better yet, don't let the player know at all ;P Make him second guess his actions before he follows through. Being evil shouldnt be straight forward Or or better better yet....make it so really high loremaster lets you know who's currently under GODs protection or not at a current moment with examine
Last edited by aj0413; 08/10/16 09:46 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2016
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Well, the town already has the guards as their attempt to defer unnecessary assaults, and when you get strong enough to kill them, they are the only real big source of XP players may not be inclined to kill anyway. I'm not sure if the extra XP from kills is even a big enough deal to worry about, other than in the case of slaying every neutral guard.
I imagine the XP requirements to level will go up enough each level that having several more low-level kills won't make a big difference to a character after a couple of levels.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2016
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Well, the town already has the guards as their attempt to defer unnecessary assaults, and when you get strong enough to kill them, they are the only real big source of XP players may not be inclined to kill anyway. I'm not sure if the extra XP from kills is even a big enough deal to worry about, other than in the case of slaying every neutral guard.
I imagine the XP requirements to level will go up enough each level that having several more low-level kills won't make a big difference to a character after a couple of levels. This is actually the case. It was the same as this in D:OS If you exploited absolutely everything in that game, you got maybe am extra level...maybe two if you could eek out over that finish line by the end for that last xp bar before the void dragon. Which is why I said it was pointless to care about this earlier. Basic logic makes the complaints sound silly, but by all means add in the BDI ;p it'd actually make the level difference bigger and add fun bonus challenge for my evil hobo barbarian runs
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2016
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by all means add in the BDI ;p it'd actually make the level difference bigger and add fun bonus challenge for my evil hobo barbarian runs Yeah, my wife caught me playing and called me and my brothers 'murder hobos'. XD
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