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Kresky Offline OP
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I wanted to take a moment and talk about primary attributes. There are three different primary attributes; Strength, Finesse, and Intelligence.

Strength
- Determines your Accuracy with strength-based weapons
- Improves the damage of Warfare skills
- Decreases the heavy equipment movement penalty
- You can lift and move heavier objects

Finesse
- Determines your Accuracy with finesse-based weapons
- Improves the damage of Huntsman and Scoundrel skills
- Increases Dodging
- Modifies Thievery

Intelligence
- Determines your Accuracy with intelligence-based weapons
- Improves the damage of several different schools


So each attribute contributes to accuracy to their respective weapons. And each targets a specialization -- Strength providing the least amount of flexibility and Intelligence the most. Many people believe that Warrior is too strong at the moment but if the numbers were adjusted and talents like Warlord were scaled down -- wouldn't they lose all appeal (especially considering that they are typically in the fray)?

With all of this in consideration - what is the viability of electing to go hybrid?

Also, what is the point of the weapon type - Spear - in this format? Should there be changes to facility spears, and should there be more weapon types like Spear (strength-based crossbows for example)?

I'm not really picking a side (no doubt I'll enjoy the game either way), more or less just presenting some information to gain some perspective from other players.

Last edited by Kresky; 09/10/16 09:39 PM.
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The issue with the knight/melee class's in alpha in comparison to the other classes is that you can buff just strength and equip a two handed weapon with 4 skills and 1 talent you can own the battlefield killing every enemy with 1 hit. Maybe drop a point into scoundrel or rogue for a 5th teleporting skill and you can kill everything before it can act. This is why the melee fighter is over powered during the alpha in comparison to any other type of character you can make.

All of that being said spears currently serve no purpose as a two handed melee weapon because they are based upon finesse and all of a two handed melee fighters skills are based on strength. I can only see them as a back up weapon to an archer but then you don't need to use a melee weapon at close range at least not in the alpha now if they made it so that huntsman skills in some way included spear fighting it would make since to base them on finesse right now they are worthless.

I think they need to rebalance the attributes in a big way before release or they are going to have the same issues they are having with one class being more overpowered than another. They should really make strength damage and have nothing to do with accuracy and have finesse determine accuracy with all weapons and have nothing to do with damage for any weapon intelligence should govern damage with intelligence based spells and weapons while still having finesse handle accuracy.

This would be the simplest way of balancing out the attributes so no one class style is overpowered because you would have to spread your attribute points to be effective. The finesse based skills from marksmen and rogue should have to hit based off of finesse while having intelligence govern damage anyway because they are all about how well you place the attack for damage and your intelligence should govern that anyway.

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Originally Posted by Fastel
This is why the melee fighter is over powered during the alpha in comparison to any other type of character you can make.


I disagree. Mainly because a melee fighter doesn't have range. You spend more points moving around, take more environment damage, and get targeted more easily by enemies. This means you need to spend more effort focusing on your defenses. Sure, they have competitive DPS potential, but in my experience marksmen and mages do too, and they have an easier time doing it safely.

Originally Posted by Kresky

With all of this in consideration - what is the viability of electing to go hybrid?

Also, what is the point of the weapon type - Spear - in this format? Should there be changes to facility spears, and should there be more weapon types like Spear (strength-based crossbows for example)?


A few things here, the Warfare skills (and all skills using weapons) scale off of the damage of the weapon being used far more than from the main stat value. This means a Finesse spear user will still have strong Warfare skills because their weapon is strong.
There are a few advantages to spear. Mainly, it has a 2.5m range, the longest of any melee weapon. Compare this with 2m for a Str 2h or 1.5m for other 1h melee weapons.
Also, should you need to temporarily swap weapons to a bow/crossbow (can't reach a target, etc.), you will be more proficient with them than a Str based melee user would be.
I did a playthrough as a Finesse Spear user and didn't have trouble keeping up with the rest of the group.

As far as going hybrid is concerned, it's best if hybridizing abilities that provide utility, while getting your damage from a single stat type. This is to prevent spreading your damage bonuses over many different things when you can only use one. For example, I had teleport, first aid, and adrenaline as supporting abilities from other skill schools.
Also, many enemies have only 1 armor type. If you have CC that target physical and magical you can lock those enemies down right away, potentially very useful.

All this being said, I do agree that the current system could use some reworks. I don't very much like how main stat starts at 15% bonus per point, and degrades to only 2% by the end of the game. I don't like the Wits stat, as everyone is already getting 100% crit from Rage (maybe rage is the problem).
Also, the bonuses associated with skills aren't in-line. Pyrokinetics is far more powerful than the others, IMO.
Then there's Source points, which are such a pain in the buns I've yet to ever use a Source ability. O, this source ability costs tons of action points, a source point, and costs 3x the memory cost of anything else? No thanks.

Last edited by error3; 09/10/16 10:06 PM.
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Define 'hybrid' because depending on your definition it might not be viable at all.

Spear is a finesse two-hander. So, evasion heavy DPS that uses finesse as its primary stat which means you can cycle bows and use bow skills as well or use daggers or use really anything that is finesse based. Also, reach value does count for something.

Furthermore, there are plenty of skills that are based on weapon damage so take it as you will which still deals competitive damage.

Basically, opposite of what Fastel wrote.

As for the rest, it's mainly accuracy that hinders hybrid builds and you have to solve it through leadership and hotheaded along with gearing which is kinda' meh.

GG someone beat me to the point.

Last edited by Limz; 09/10/16 10:21 PM.
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I suppose my definition of hybrid within the game would be the development of more than one specialization. I wouldn't consider a player putting a point into a specialization to get a particular skill a hybrid. So in essence, more than one specialization where one doesn't clearly overshadow the other(s).

Huntsman (Finesse) - Necromancer (Intelligence)

Aerotheurge (Intelligence) - Scoundrel (Finesse)

Warfare (Strength) - Pyrokinetics (Intelligence)

etc.

(of course you could also include Intelligence - Intelligence)

I definitely agree accuracy is a limiting factor.

Last edited by Kresky; 09/10/16 10:54 PM.
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Scoundrel has no baring on "hybrids"

It increases movement and crit multiplier

And on that note let me lint out that melee have a shit ton of movement if you're min maxing:

The pawn -> free AP for movement

Scoundrel -> crit mult and movement

Two handed -> damage and crit mult

Warfare -> only need one pint to allow learning skills


Rage -> auto Crit

Talent -> 2 AP per kill

Notes you can pump warfare for damage to physical armor to kill faster for hose that have physical defense but generally won't need it, there are lots of movement skills, and many abilities that are self buffs and so on that don't require actually pumping their associated stat, learning skills can skirt the req of having a pint in the ability through either armor bonus or being an elf

There are many good reasons for saying melee has issues


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In my definition I was using the schools in reference to the the available skills, not specifically the points and what they modify -- sorry that I didn't clarify that.

*not to say the modifier doesn't count for anything

Last edited by Kresky; 09/10/16 11:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by aj0413

Notes you can pump warfare for damage to physical armor to kill faster for hose that have physical defense


I'd recommend pumping your weapon skill instead. The bonus from it will work on the health portion of enemies too. Warfare gives no passive benefit when attacking an enemy without Physical armor, which are probably the targets you want your physical attackers targeting first anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kresky
In my definition I was using the schools in reference to the the available skills, not specifically the points and what they modify -- sorry that I didn't clarify that.


By thT definition, "hybrid" melee is the strongest build in the game currently

**and yes I know, I just threw in the warfare thing as a side note if someone wants has leftover pints or something

Last edited by aj0413; 10/10/16 12:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kresky
I suppose my definition of hybrid within the game would be the development of more than one specialization. I wouldn't consider a player putting a point into a specialization to get a particular skill a hybrid. So in essence, more than one specialization where one doesn't clearly overshadow the other(s).

Huntsman (Finesse) - Necromancer (Intelligence)

Aerotheurge (Intelligence) - Scoundrel (Finesse)

Warfare (Strength) - Pyrokinetics (Intelligence)

etc.

(of course you could also include Intelligence - Intelligence)

I definitely agree accuracy is a limiting factor.


So, the reason why I asked is because if your definition was 'the ability to deal physical damage and magical damage competitively' then I would say 'Sure, you currently can have hybrids thanks to how abilities are set up.'

But what you're asking is closer to the thematic definition of hybrid which is an issue because some skill lines/trees/pools just don't have cross damage skills or they do so little damage to begin with that you can't really call it a hybrid or you have accuracy limiting certain factors.

Examples of this would be Aero + Physical Melee. Aero spells have no amplifier outside of higher damage against magical shielding which means that the int penalty won't really be overcome where as if you had say Pyro + Melee you can at least even the damage out by pumping more points into Pyrokinetics if that makes any sense.

Right now, one of the better hybrid builds is just one that uses warfare skills in conjunction with spells and goes almost pure int which is not exactly a build most would consider an archetype.

At the end of the day though accuracy is a factor and also that some skill lines have no way of bolstering damage. Aero + Phys melee would be a hard to consider lineup as an archetype since the magic damage would be so little - you would essentially just be a knight since you're using spells as pure CC/utility.

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Originally Posted by aj0413
Scoundrel has no baring on "hybrids"

It increases movement and crit multiplier



I am a bit hesitant in wanting to agree with you here due to the context; you're taking that component without considering the whole.

He's saying aero (int) + scoundrel (fin) which implies he's divving his attr points accordingly which means one of his weapons is going to be a dagger or even both or maybe single handed.

So that translates to some of the following possibilities; Shadowblade; Spell Crit/Ambush build.

Is it competitive relative to other options? Possibly maybe. You can, after all, dual wield wand + dagger so you get skills like Fatal Blow, various positioning things, and also backstab. I haven't tested this out, I am just going off of logic. So, backstabbing guerrilla wand damge + physical dagger damage while casting relatively decent hitting nukes with high crit chance using Scoundrel and Aero to catch up in damage efficiency and ... Chloroform ... deals magic damage and scales off of ... finesse? Maaaaybe?

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@aj0413 The entire point of me creating this thread was not to establish your opinion of what you believe the optimal build is right now. I wanted you to evaluate the information and give your perspective about the attributes and how they relate to hybrid builds and weapon types -- then state if you think this system works great or could use some changes.

I'll state my own opinion for the sake of example.

- I think the primary attributes play a large role in determining what specialization will be available to you -- because of this Strength is the most penalized since you only have Warfare. If it wasn't for the absurd damage output that Warrior is capable of right now I think this would be much more obvious to everyone.

- Hybrid builds have to work around damage and accuracy lost from splitting points into primary attributes and combat abilities.

- I can understand the argument that Spear can be utility -- swapping to Bow/Crossbow/Daggers to use related Finesse skills. I don't think it's a very strong argument, compared to just using Bow/Crossbow/Daggers from the start.

- I think the system is fine -- it offers trade-offs. I do wish there were more weapon types or weapon types that accepted more than one attribute. (Crossbow can be either Strength or Finesse, same for Spear)

Last edited by Kresky; 10/10/16 12:39 AM.
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Spear is finesse. You don't need to swap unless you're looking to use a bow for ranged purposes. So, in certain situations spear-builds outpace pure strength melee builds.

Furthermore, you can still use warfare skills with a spear and do a ton of damage despite being primarily Finesse. Also, reach, and bonus from 2H. It's basically the same as a knight except you lose some of the top damage for the ability to do competitive ranged damage.

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Originally Posted by error3
I disagree. Mainly because a melee fighter doesn't have range. You spend more points moving around, take more environment damage, and get targeted more easily by enemies. This means you need to spend more effort focusing on your defenses. Sure, they have competitive DPS potential, but in my experience marksmen and mages do too, and they have an easier time doing it safely.


Range seems to be only a matter at the start. Later on a fighter can learn at least three Warfare skills for quick alocation and dealing damage by doing so. Give him Geomancers spells like Impalement and Phoenix Dive gets about three times as effective: Dealing a lot (magical) damage, moving him close to the target and creating a huge obstacle for enemie melee fighters.

Count in other classes and a warrior hardly needs to move at all. Get the enemie in front of you with teleport or just use additionally something like Tactical Retreat. Warriors got a huge buff to counter the range disadvantage comparing to DOS1.

Regarding the topic: As soon as you are getting close to level 10 damage wise putting points into them seems to get pointless. Only accuracy remains perhaps a reason to put still more points in. For Wits the deminishing return is even worse. At level 8 it doesn't matter if you but in 15 points or 17 regarding crit and initiative. You gain 8 initiative from level but only 2 from wits, wich is pretty ridiculous.

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@Limz The range is definitely appealing -- it could be the difference of a bomb off going in front your face or not.

Last edited by Kresky; 10/10/16 01:10 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kresky
@Limz The range is definitely appealing -- it could be the difference of a bomb off going in front your face or not.


This actually helped me a LOT during the fight with all the voidlings spawning, as they had a tendency to explode in my face.

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That's what I'm pointing out:

Warfare hardly matters to melee builds because the other abilities offer better synergy. I can't see how strength is penalized at all. They're also some of the best builds in the game as a hybrid according to your definition.

The abilities need work because it's clear they're not all Made equal and even the ones "meant" for a certain class don't workout as intended. Hybrids are super strong (and that's not a bad thing)

My min maxed build was to punt to the fact that if warlord was changed they wouldn't lose any appeal. There's a lot more going on there with warriors then archetypal abilities/skills synergizing too well.

Hybrids are quite simply not really hurt at all by their hybridization cause the main stats do very little to anything that matters to most hybrids aside from the one stat that scales their main damage type.

As for the stat system: it's a broken mess that really needs to be fixed. It's not really doing anything for or against hybrids. It's just kind of there. One only needs to worrr about accuracy from their main weapon and therefore should pump only one stat that effects that. The system doesn't encourage hybrids at all. Hell doesn't encourage much of anything with how little it makes it feel like leveling matters aside from "maintaining" relative damage of one typ or mitigating the accuracy and damage loss of two. Your combat abilities are the thing that really matters at the moment for damage.

Each stat should feel more important and hybrids should be built around deciding which gains are important; not what they're willing to give up. No class should.

** typing on phone so forgive writing grammar and spelling

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@aj0413, etc.
There was a very specific reason why I had Kresky define what a hybrid build is. Based on the definition then the arguments provided can only apply to that definition - in essence, it's a thematic definition. If we change the definition to the ability to deal both physical and magical damage then stats do matter because they affect ability damage and it becomes balancing out your 'native' i.e. primary with your secondary sources as well as balancing our your skill points and memory.

Having hybrids exist by ability alone is perfectly fine, there just needs to exist abilities that facilitate that.

A lot of other games generally have things like 'arcane strike' or some way to deliver a spell with a melee strike but those abilities do not exist.

Also, warfare is pretty critical for hybridized damage; it's an easy way to convert magic damage into physical. Unfortunately, there aren't really any abilities that convert physical into magical. Also, non-trivial damage, e.g., crippling blow, overpower.

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Originally Posted by Limz

Having hybrids exist by ability alone is perfectly fine, there just needs to exist abilities that facilitate that.

A lot of other games generally have things like 'arcane strike' or some way to deliver a spell with a melee strike but those abilities do not exist.

Also, warfare is pretty critical for hybridized damage; it's an easy way to convert magic damage into physical. Unfortunately, there aren't really any abilities that convert physical into magical. Also, non-trivial damage, e.g., crippling blow, overpower.


Ah, I was focused on the whole using skills "hybrid"

I still say I don't like how current stat system works for anyone and the abilties need work

But I see your point on facilitating converting damage types and warfare's use for such

Wouldn't skills that are in magic schools but are meant for Might type characters be good enough though? Such as a skill to add elemental damage to a weapon? Or touch spells that can be channeled through weapons (via a talent)?

Also, can't Air be used to do the same as Warfare? ...If not could they make it so?

Honestly, though I'd much prefer changing the abilties and doing what your suggesting through either a new school of skills and a new combat ability, skills spread through out schools, and/or a talent.

Also, wouldn't a hybrid character who could cause massive damage of either or and/or both armor types at will be obscenely strong in a well made fighter type? They'd have to be balanced around sacrificing a large portion of their single target damage potential to make up for the variability...same as a mage, but not to the same extent (though mages need some work too).


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I don't like how the stats currently work. They definitely felt meaningless by the end of the EA. Except memory. Investing in memory always felt rewarding.
The worst offenders were: equips awarding big bonuses compared to per level gains, the scaling changes on level up, the lack of anything else being tied to stats (no armor requirements/direct skill ties)

In D:OS a big mediator was the AP cost and CD for skills. So warfare skills require strength to reduce CDs and aP cost. Atleast CD modification could be included in the current game. And I feel that stat req's on items would also change the current feeling.

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