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Originally Posted by Ellezard
When you have to suggest something like adding RNG and stat limitation, you lose the right to say anything about being tactical.

What kind of idiotic argument is that ?
Since when have tactics required completely predictable outcomes ?
In fact, real-world tactics are about battles, and battles are among the LEAST predictable things to happen. Tactics are precisely a tool to try to improve your odds. Saying you can't have tactics with randomness is downright stupid.

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Unpredictable element in battles come from your enemy taking actions, not from RNG where you go into a fight with a half loaded revolver, expecting it to be a russian roulette. When you go into a fight with a revolver, you darn well do everything to make sure the gun never jam and load all the bullets into it. To do the opposite is just idiotic.

This is something that was brought in my the new Ini. Enemies taking action and making even well crafted plan fail unless you find a way to remove this uncertainty with good delayed turn or targeting the right enemies.

Don't give people jammed and half reloaded revolver if you want a tactical fight.

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The only good thing about this change Larian did is having free respecs to "fix" it.

/sarcasm

Initiative was a fun stat. Get your team to think on a better solution than just removing it.

Last edited by kaltorak; 22/09/17 09:22 AM.
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So back to comparing apple with pears? A revolver does not CC, a revolver does damage only. A revolver is like shooting with your crossbow, using Shocking touch on the other hand is like using a Taser. It is likely, that your Taser will stun the enemie, but there is also the slight chance, that he can withstand. Same goes for a hook to the chin or if you shoot somebody into his leg, you can't predict how well you aimed and how heavily it will influence him.


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@Kalrakh: Thanks for pointing out the rolling on status effects in D:OS1. I stand corrected. In fact, that system then is much closer to what I'd prefer than what we have now. smile

@Ellezard: I'm confused. On the one hand you seem to be arguing in favour of a larger tactical element, yet at the same time you decry initiative as highly untactical. Why, do you think, did the introduction of ranged units, mounted units etc. each have such a profound impact on battlefield tactics? Yet somehow you'd argue that cavallery is not allowed to move any faster than foot soldiers because it turns cavallery into an "I-WIN"-unit? Wut?

That whole argument to me feels like writing a new ruleset for triathlon. You may increase shooting accuracy as much as you like, because that's what makes a good competitor, but both swim speed and running speed are limited to the slowest of the pack because... they allow you to win the triathlon. (!?)

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IT wasn't even a comparison about damage and CC. It's about going into a battle with as little unpredictable element as possible and always preparing for it. Do you call a duel with half-loaded revolver a proper duel?

Tactician are not known for their RNG. They are known for their analysis and predictions to keep risks to the minimum while maximizing the reward. The famous story of Zhuge Liang playing his gupin in the Empty Fort strategy and force an enemy to retreat using his fame as a tool is still told everywhere as what a tactician is truly like. He didn't go up there with a "1% chance to terrify" gupin.

If someone wants RNG, they can just go play a card game. Every tactic game that has RNG all have the same kind of meta build, dedicated to removing the RNG element. Just look at Pillars of Eternity. The fight is all about casting Immunity to CC (So no random BS instalock) and then casting a bunch of + accuracy and - deflect just so you get a major boost on every dice roll and remove the chance of missing almost entirely.

If we're going to force people to play low RNG build, just remove them so players aren't forced to dedicated half of their build to remove the RNG to make late content more fair.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Terodil

@Ellezard: I'm confused. On the one hand you seem to be arguing in favour of a larger tactical element, yet at the same time you decry initiative as highly untactical. Why, do you think, did the introduction of ranged units, mounted units etc. each have such a profound impact on battlefield tactics? Yet somehow you'd argue that cavallery is not allowed to move any faster than foot soldiers because it turns cavallery into an "I-WIN"-unit? Wut?


Compeltely different game with different approach. Divinity allow for too much wombo combo that can instantly wipe the field. You can't cast jump across half the map, group enemies together and cast meteor on their head in battlefield.

Wombo combo in turn-based game that instantly win a fight is like playing solitaire deck on card game. Your enemies don't matter and there's no tactic involved.

Last edited by Ellezard; 22/09/17 09:45 AM.
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As I said, I think the main issue is not initiative then but the fact that you can negate distance on the battlefield.

To me it seems that removing the offensive teleport would solve 90% of the issue. Much better, in any case, than removing the entire tactical tradeoff of speed and adaptability vs. heavier defense and offense.

Last edited by Terodil; 22/09/17 09:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ellezard
Tactician are not known for their RNG. They are known for their analysis and predictions to keep risks to the minimum while maximizing the reward. The famous story of Zhuge Liang playing his gupin in the Empty Fort strategy and force an enemy to retreat using his fame as a tool is still told everywhere as what a tactician is truly like. He didn't go up there with a "1% chance to terrify" gupin.


Sure, he totally knew, that he would 100% succeed. It was more likely, that he was pretty sure, that it would work, but an uncertainty remained. It was a risk he took, winning the risk made him a hero, if the enemies would have been harder to impress, he would have ended as a fool. Because the difference between a hero and a fool is often just this, if a risky plan failed or not.

Predicting means, to predict how likely it will happen, that you succeed, you don't need to predict, if you already know, it will succeed.

That what was buffing and debuffing was about in D:OS1, increasing the chance of success and therefore limiting the chance of failure. It also made loremaster more important, because you had to check for their Body Building and Willpower.

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By the way, every good strategist makes contingency plans. It's just that you usually don't hear about them often because they tend to be much less spectacular.

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The only way to fix teleport is to remove it completely from combat. However, teleport is part of nearly every combo and creative solution. Creative gameplay is what the game is about, that's why teleport with its current 2 AP cost will never be touched now. The game will just give the enemy a "Grounded" stat instead so you can't teleport them out.

High ini battle is going to be a balance nightmare anyway. What will you do about 4 ranger comp stomping tactician with 4 arrow storm? Oh, nerf arrow storm. Then I move to meteor shower. Nerf meteor shower. Then I move to Hail storm. Nerf hail storm. It goes on and on and on. It has more bad than good. They will have to add fog of war into the game to prevent turn 1 stomp and let's not have that. Fog of war is on so many people shitlist already.

@kalrakh : And the build you mentioned just show that people will just build to remove the RNG and maximize their chance.

It's like making our base hit chance starts at 80 instead of 95 and it goes up by +1 per fin for melee and +1 for wit. Suddenly, everyone warrior will have Fin and every ranger will max wit real fast just to land the hit all the time nad make the plan more consistent.

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Do you remember btc and wotlk wow? What was main criteria of every build? 108% hitchance, for absolutely certain hit chance on bosses.
Main criteria of every tank? Overcapped defense, so he cannot ever get critically hit by boss. Exactly what Ellezard is talking about, when RNG is involved, almost all good/optimal builds will evolve around reducing that RNG. Removing this RNG part was good move from larian.

About initiative - its all about balancing for good and worse players.
The way it worked, every fight would be trivialized by 4x high wits character, killing/crowdcontrolling most of enemies in turn 1. To compensate that, you would have to nerf basically ALL the abilities and stats, so that doesnt happen.
BUT if you do that, all NON-Wits party comps would suddenly be greatly underpowered in allmost all scenarios, effectively creating huge roadblock, surpasable with only one build or some cheese strategies
Its just lesser evil, I dont say its particularly great solution, but it is easy to implement, easy to balance, easy to understand.

As for ability to make build based on speed and adaptability... dude, thats what movement speed, memory, multiple classes and skills are for... much more than turn order lul

Last edited by TsunAmik; 22/09/17 10:43 AM.
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And now they just build to maximise their damage, because they don't need to care about chances.

D:OS 2 is only about excessively huge numbers of damage. All creativity in putting points into attribute is gone. In D:OS1 I had tanky scoundrel with Str, Fin and Int and he still worked fine, my glass cannon support mage was heavy on speed and constitution. Sure, you could put everything into your main stat, but is was not your only option.

But honestly:
Quote
@kalrakh : And the build you mentioned just show that people will just build to remove the RNG and maximize their chance.

It's like making our base hit chance starts at 80 instead of 95 and it goes up by +1 per fin for melee and +1 for wit. Suddenly, everyone warrior will have Fin and every ranger will max wit real fast just to land the hit all the time nad make the plan more consistent.


What do you want me to tell about that? Maximising your chances is not tactical?

Making more than one attribute usefull is not improving tactical opportunities? There is nothing tactical about maxing only one stat.

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The problem is that not that only build to deal damage. The problem is that majority of the game is all about damage.

Act 1 and 2 had nothing but "Stack damage and win fight". Instead of trying to fix the build and punish people for wanting to deal damage, they should have designed fights that can't be won simply through dealing damage.

There isn't a single fight where you get to use the balista.

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Unpredictable element in battles come from your enemy taking actions, not from RNG where you go into a fight with a half loaded revolver, expecting it to be a russian roulette.


You see? Complete retardation and ignorance - packaged as logical fallacies.

Laughable false equivalence.

1. How is half loaded gun russian roulette?
2. Why would anyone expect battle will be like russian roulette? Thats completely idiotic.
3. Even if you have a full gun you have no idea if you will actually hit anything with it. There is no guarantee. Not only because of enemy actions but your own imperfections and the environment influence.

You can have a GREATER CHANCE to hit something if you practiced shooting with a gun, preferably the same type of a gun, and even better if its the same gun, but even then no guarantee or certainty.

And who the fuck has any skill at 1%?

Besides, a percentage based chance to succeed IS NOT random.
So the term "random number generator" cannot apply at all.

Because those numbers are not fucking random.


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Hah, dont tell me about any random when I got wiped on Brachus Rex in honour mode of DOSEE just because my last alive damage dealer missed 4 abilities in row, every single one of them was above 65% chance to hit! Thats some RNG bullshit, and the less of it is present, happier I am smile

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Nah, Bracchus was skillful enough to dodge all of them. Should have upped your skill. Totally skill fault.

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yeah, I was too weak to predict that some random fucking numbers could screw 15 hours of playtime because of chance... That fight was quite RNG based overall, as brachus had high resistances to CC, so it was like roulette if atleast 1 of 3 CC would connect - if it did, I won, if it missed 3 times, one of my party members was probably dead. And whole fight went downhill after that. Such fun, many tactics.

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Now, let's make damage range bigger. 3100 to 3250? you mean, 1300 - 3250 so you can tactician your way through everything with consistent damage.

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Originally Posted by TsunAmik
Hah, dont tell me about any random when I got wiped on Brachus Rex in honour mode of DOSEE just because my last alive damage dealer missed 4 abilities in row, every single one of them was above 65% chance to hit! Thats some RNG bullshit, and the less of it is present, happier I am smile


So? Freak occurences happen. That doesn't prove anything.

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Having a 65% chance to hit something is not random... for fuck sake... you two are so stupid that talking to you rationally has no effect or purpose.

If you had a random chance to hit something then each time you made a move your chance to hit would be chosen RANDOMLY. As well as the result.
So it would never be 65% chance to hit constantly. Nor could you influence it by leveling up and improving your skills.

65% is about two thirds chance, so only a completely brainless person would expect to hit every time or very often. And only a complete moron would go attack the Boss with such low chances and expect to win. Because the Boss also defends, its not a static sculpture you toss stones at... even though you think so because you dont understand how Turn based systems work - because you are stupid.

True, it can be frustrating to miss 4 times in a row or similar, but that happens very rarely - if you improve your skills - and only can completely ruin a game for those who expect they will hit all the time with such a chance. In a fight with a Boss or any appropriately high level enemy - and have no backup plan but stupidly repeat the same bad moves and tactics and then cry when they lose.
And then want the whole system to change so they can "win"...

In a game where they can resurrect and enemies cant, where they can heal but enemies cant or do so extremely rarely and in minimal amounts.

A proper solution to such rare events is to improve the system, not to remove skills and stats you dumb shits.

This only shows what types of dumb cancerous players apparently influence the devs the most, because devs for some reason take this kind of moronic nonsense as their audience and disregard any other.

Types of players who should be playing action games and shooters and similar games, not "old school" RPGs.


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