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Originally Posted by Bokajon
Originally Posted by qwerty3w
Very basic calculation:

hp = vitality
ma = magical armor
pa = physical armor
ma = magical damage
pd = physical damage

Suppose you have a balanced team 1:
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter
2 hp 0 pa 1 ma 1 md mage
2 hp 0 pa 1 ma 1 md mage

Against a purely physical team 2:
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter

Assuming simultaneous turns:
In the first turn, team 1 can deal 2 magical damage and 2 physical damage. In the best case, through focus fire it can take down 1 fighter and reduce another fighter's hp to 1.
Team 2 can deal 4 physical damage, it can take down 2 mages. So you end up with:

Team 1:
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter

Team 2:
1 hp 0 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter
2 hp 1 pa 0 ma 1 pd fighter

Team 2 is clearly at a advantage.

Of course it is a very simplified model and does not take other factors into account, but it should help explain the problem a bit.

Like you say yourself your example is very simplified. Against a team of enemies with high physical armor and low/no magical armor Team 2 has a harder time than Team 1. Team 1 can CC/kill them quickly, whereas Team 2 needs to attack physical armor first before they can CC/kill.

Team 1 is more flexible, at the cost of taking longer to kill balanced armor enemies.
Team 2 is great against low physical armor, at the cost of taking longer to kill high physical armor / low magical armor enemies.

It's a tradeoff. To get back to the original question, this is the whole concept of the armor system imo. You can choose to do only physical damage or only magical damage with your team, or you can mix your damage types. All these choices have different advantages and disadvantages depending on the enemies you will face throughout the game.


Awesome example. Very clarifying for me. Thank you for sharing! smile


"Keep distant, My own demons still haunt me too closely. I cannot also bear the burden of yours."
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But your own characters also tend to have skewed armors. Items with high physical armor tend to have more strength requirement, items with more magical armor have more intelligence requirement. Enemy fighters that usually have more physical armor are not more of a threat to your own fighters than enemy mages, since fighters mostly deal physical damage.

Most enemy groups in the game are relatively balanced. Against a balanced enemy group, a pure physical/magical party can take down the more vulerable half of the enemies much faster. In a strategy game less units = less damage per turn. Then the party can handle the remaining half more safely.

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If u met more enemy with high physical resistance, you won't think that pure physical or magical team is a good idea anymore.

So please don't make stupid comparison between mixed-damage team or pure-damage team.

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It's a shitty stupid system but the sense of it is exactly what you said.
To make sure that combat doesn't end on turn 1 because everything is knocked down or polymophed etc.

A much much better idea would have been to simply return to D:OS1 system which was better in every conceivable way and allowed you to resist such stupidities through stats, but whatever. I think they were trying to make stats as useless as possible this time.

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Originally Posted by Lightzy
It's a shitty stupid system but the sense of it is exactly what you said.
To make sure that combat doesn't end on turn 1 because everything is knocked down or polymophed etc.

A much much better idea would have been to simply return to D:OS1 system which was better in every conceivable way and allowed you to resist such stupidities through stats, but whatever. I think they were trying to make stats as useless as possible this time.


But I do agree this new system.
Why should I take the control effect when I defense well?
If enemy doesn't break my defence( or armour), then I could resist thier control.
Is it really that hard to be understood?

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Originally Posted by July_chang


But I do agree this new system.
Why should I take the control effect when I defense well?
If enemy doesn't break my defence( or armour), then I could resist thier control.
Is it really that hard to be understood?

What kind of nonsense to resort to "logic" in such a matter?
Then let's remove health altogether - in fact for killing one blow on an open body without armor is enough.

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Ugh! Another little grip I have is hitting someone in melee, their blood spilling, and setting yourself on fire (or whatever element), seems like it needs to be dialled down a touch!

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Originally Posted by July_chang
If u met more enemy with high physical resistance, you won't think that pure physical or magical team is a good idea anymore.

If we talk about challenges to a specific party makeup, the toughest enemies in the game are bosses, they tend to have more balanced armors, and a balanced party would have more trouble handling them. So it's likely easier to get stuck because of game difficulty if your party is balanced.

There is rock paper scissors for skewed characters in the game:
pa and pd > ma and pd > ma and md > pa and md > pa and pd
pa/ma = physical armor/magical armor
pd/md = physical damage/magical damage
I feel it's not a good idea to have such counter relationships in an RPG game, it's difficult to design encounters and make them fun no matter what your party makeup is under such system.



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Originally Posted by geala
It's a bit funny to read people complaining about the bad new armor system with the evil removal of randomness fun while at the same time mourning the loss of the good old times of getting 100% resists.

It's a different system and wether you like it or not is personal bias. I could live with the old, I prefer the new one.


So far I like the new system better overall, but can totally see people on all sides. To me it seems more refined, like a Fantasy XCom take on it. The DOS1 system was a system of excess, cool in its own way to, but so many big options over and over, the gluttony system. I like how Init works as well, much more reasonable switching turns between player/AI. The old system too many times was all or nothing.

For people playing DOS2 that haven't played DOS1, the differences in combat are real and gives the games a different feel, DOS1 isn't just a different story, it's a more a wild west take on combat.

So for those not wanting the armor part of this. Are we thinking, whatever is removed from armor, add that to overall Vitality? I can totally see that to and that alone would be a different play through, cc affects become a thing from the start.

Man I see several play-through experiences:
1. All the main chars.
2. Coop.
3. 6 man team mod.
4. 1 man team mod.
5. Different game mechanic mods. (Low scaling mods, no armor mods etc)

The modding and the scene is way ahead of where it was at last time around.

I think this could be the new pinnacle point for fantasy crpg's.

Good times ahead.

NOTE TO MODDERS:
We need to devise a way to test our changes out throughout the entire game. Right now we have some pretty sweeping change mods out, but there is no real certainty how these play out from start to finish, unless you play the entire game out.






Last edited by Horrorscope; 29/09/17 04:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by ExecutiveCivic
I don't even give a crap about high armor values though they are helpful. I go glass cannon and stack immunities and on my melee characters too and they have over 20k health. Diner = 30% Dinner heal = 3 AP nearly full instant self heal, a dinner heals my fighters for 6400 health.

If you can't win just by using the environment alone, win by bloating health and CON!

FIGHT stat bloat with stat bloat!

FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE!


There are so many ways to have a successful build for this game. It is sort of funny trying to lasso in a method that "Can do it", there are probably 100's if not 1000's of ways for success in game. Not pointing at you, just reading peoples takes, "This build", "This tactic", there are so many, it is more like "go find your happy place and have fun".

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Originally Posted by Sotanaht
Stats and loot had all the same importance in OS1, it just so happened that you could craft most of the best equipment, so finding it was never an issue. That of course lead to the opposite problem where the loot you could find or buy was never anything but trash and it was only the materials you ever cared about.

And it is much more strategic. It's the difference between reloading until something works (either reload the instant it fails or reload when you lose the fight, same difference either way), or finding a proper strategy that doesn't fail. The difference between solving a jigsaw puzzle and forcing the pieces together to call it solved. It has some flaws but the way hard CC is handled isn't one of them.

Also, I found that the AI likes to focus targets with lower HP, so balancing Con has the benefit of making the enemy spread their damage rather than focus one target to death. The exact mechanics of the game's aggro system are beyond me though. There are also ways other than armor to provide immunity to certain CC, including potions and the rested status.



1-lie, never bothered with crafting in the first game, everything i equiped i found and i finished the game no problems.

2-lie again, stratagey doesn't mean cheese the AI until you are able to win, you will still be reloading like crazy until a fight plays in a certain way so you are able to win it.

3-AI is psychic it will focus characters with traits like glass cannon or undead without knowing shit about that, so yeah, there goes your fucking strategy, the AI outright cheats.

Last edited by Zherot; 29/09/17 03:45 PM.
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I'd like to throw in my two cents about random chance and what it means for a game like divinity.

In an RPG, especially one like divinity, the game is about going into the unknown, and taking what comes to you. There should always be an element of danger to combat, a lucky strike leaving you floored out of nowhere, a miss leaving you in a bad spot, things that make you look at the computer for a few minutes to consider your options. RNG adds this to a game, plain and simple.

Divinity 2 has seemingly gone on the war path against random numbers though, offence and defense ratings are out and miss change is very seldom encountered. But I feel like they are trying to direct the game into a path more suited for a multiplayer game than a crpg. In Dos1, when your CC failed when you thought you had a high chance, or you missed the critical shot, a true RPG player would savor the tension. The thoughts and tough choices they had to make in that moment being enjoyable experiences unique to this kind of game. The playerbase that div 2's changes seem to be directed to are different, however. People who, put in the same situation, would throw their hands in that air, proclaim "This is bullshit!", and reload a quicksave they made 10 seconds prior.

In a turn based game, reacting to bad situations getting worse and savoring when everything goes right are equal parts of what makes it enjoyable, and I feel div 2 removed half of that with gutting almost all RNG.

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Originally Posted by HUcast
I'd like to throw in my two cents about random chance and what it means for a game like divinity.

In an RPG, especially one like divinity, the game is about going into the unknown, and taking what comes to you. There should always be an element of danger to combat, a lucky strike leaving you floored out of nowhere, a miss leaving you in a bad spot, things that make you look at the computer for a few minutes to consider your options. RNG adds this to a game, plain and simple.

Divinity 2 has seemingly gone on the war path against random numbers though, offence and defense ratings are out and miss change is very seldom encountered. But I feel like they are trying to direct the game into a path more suited for a multiplayer game than a crpg. In Dos1, when your CC failed when you thought you had a high chance, or you missed the critical shot, a true RPG player would savor the tension. The thoughts and tough choices they had to make in that moment being enjoyable experiences unique to this kind of game. The playerbase that div 2's changes seem to be directed to are different, however. People who, put in the same situation, would throw their hands in that air, proclaim "This is bullshit!", and reload a quicksave they made 10 seconds prior.

In a turn based game, reacting to bad situations getting worse and savoring when everything goes right are equal parts of what makes it enjoyable, and I feel div 2 removed half of that with gutting almost all RNG.


You know what?, it makes perfect sense now considering there is pvp in the game they "balanced" the game around stupid MP and killed the fun of the game.

Another example of multiplayer ruinning single player games.

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Nah, I doubt it was the Arena mode. They just wanted a change to how things worked.

I think it made the game less exciting, and didn't address the biggest thing that they wanted to address. Hard CC is still hecka busted and the game still revolves around it. Reduce chances, bring back stats to reduce the chances even less, make statuses that don't skip turns hit through armor, put in physical resists... and I think you're in a very interesting place.

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Originally Posted by Lebrucht
Originally Posted by July_chang


But I do agree this new system.
Why should I take the control effect when I defense well?
If enemy doesn't break my defence( or armour), then I could resist thier control.
Is it really that hard to be understood?

What kind of nonsense to resort to "logic" in such a matter?
Then let's remove health altogether - in fact for killing one blow on an open body without armor is enough.


Are u sure it's not u who suggeste a nonsense condition?
U could disable the cc or rebuild the armour by teammates or anyother way, if u play game by using brain.

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No, it really is the PvP. I recall the "epic battles" (and insults, so many insults) I got thrown about with by PvP players when complaining about armor in EA.
And no one listening that what works for 10m PvP matches might not do so in a 100H SP-game.

Now playing the game I do keep 2 physical/2 magic just because I want to. But it's always having to put these 2 on different targets since sharing is pointless. And a lot of times one of these groups just throws up buffs instead of fighting since fighting is pointless. It doesn't feel great.

Also stats distribution is lame. STR/INT/FIN it is, no point spreading out. I often wonder what to put my stat-points in since, wow, 5% extra, so great. But what's the alternative? It's all so meh, the real actual buff of your characters being in getting in more armor or better weaponry. My Ifan is OP since he got an OP crossbow, meanwhile the rest is stuck with avarage weapons and do avarage. Couldn't do the arena fight until I cleared the whole fort since before that I didn't have enough magic armor points to not just be blinded till dead smirk

It's a good thing the game has other things going for it (but I HATE it at the moment for the Gargoyle Maze) cause it's combat system; it's not very interesting.
(But questing is also hampered by lots and lots of issues, but that's another discussion)

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Originally Posted by Littlebob86
Hey guys,

So heaps of reviews are saying the game is amazing (which is it), but the way armour blocks a ton of stuff (mainly cc mages), really annoys me. It makes me feel like I need to focus magic dealing otherwise it's just useless?

I feel that it's harder to have a mixed team, and not in a good way.

Can someone please explain if I'm missing something that makes it good?


In D:OS1 a lot of various CC and debuff effects had a chance to occur, which was very frustrating RNG at times both ways, you could have been utterly gutted with a pure RNG CC rolling on and shitting on your parade or reverse - all your control planning failed because your CC/stuff simply would not land.

This caused a lot of reloads just because your carefully constructed house of cards could have been ruined by simple RNG and there was a lot of it.

I find this armor system to be a big improvement simply because you can now plan around with more consistent experience, you can plan your control chain and you can also plan your defenses too, instead of praying for RNG CC sticking/not sticking depending on which side you are.


Other than that I like that armor provides a cushion against small annoying damage that caused you in first game to waste time healing up. It's a convenience.


Now, I am not here claiming it is best mechanic ever, but it is an improvement, in my opinion. The problem with it is that "classic" mixed fighter/magic groups suffer somewhat, but honestly the game outside first zone and a half is not that difficult even on tactician - you eventually snowball so hard that you end up stomping things almost with any composition and it ends up something like a difference between you killing a chunk of the enemy force turn 1 or you messing around a bit and killing them anyway in the end.

For D:OS3 or whatever it will be called, I'd stay with armor system, but make some sort of adjustments to encourage mixed teams more.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax


I find this armor system to be a big improvement


hahaha

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Originally Posted by Zherot
Originally Posted by Sotanaht
Stats and loot had all the same importance in OS1, it just so happened that you could craft most of the best equipment, so finding it was never an issue. That of course lead to the opposite problem where the loot you could find or buy was never anything but trash and it was only the materials you ever cared about.

And it is much more strategic. It's the difference between reloading until something works (either reload the instant it fails or reload when you lose the fight, same difference either way), or finding a proper strategy that doesn't fail. The difference between solving a jigsaw puzzle and forcing the pieces together to call it solved. It has some flaws but the way hard CC is handled isn't one of them.

Also, I found that the AI likes to focus targets with lower HP, so balancing Con has the benefit of making the enemy spread their damage rather than focus one target to death. The exact mechanics of the game's aggro system are beyond me though. There are also ways other than armor to provide immunity to certain CC, including potions and the rested status.



1-lie, never bothered with crafting in the first game, everything i equiped i found and i finished the game no problems.

2-lie again, stratagey doesn't mean cheese the AI until you are able to win, you will still be reloading like crazy until a fight plays in a certain way so you are able to win it.

3-AI is psychic it will focus characters with traits like glass cannon or undead without knowing shit about that, so yeah, there goes your fucking strategy, the AI outright cheats.

1. All that means is the first game was too easy. There were a lot of ways that worked, most of them revolved around a single simple tactic that works 90% of the time, like knockdown spam.

2. That's not cheese. It's the very definition of strategy to find individual tactics tailored to the encounters. Cheese would be if a single simple tactic worked 90% of the time, which it doesn't.

3. It's not cheating. The player can inspect enemies with Loremaster skill and see their undead traits too (if it wasn't obvious) as well as their resistances. They would be able to see glass cannon just as easily if any enemies actually had it. The AI isn't using any information here that isn't also available to the players.

Last edited by Sotanaht; 01/10/17 12:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sotanaht
Originally Posted by Zherot
Originally Posted by Sotanaht
Stats and loot had all the same importance in OS1, it just so happened that you could craft most of the best equipment, so finding it was never an issue. That of course lead to the opposite problem where the loot you could find or buy was never anything but trash and it was only the materials you ever cared about.

And it is much more strategic. It's the difference between reloading until something works (either reload the instant it fails or reload when you lose the fight, same difference either way), or finding a proper strategy that doesn't fail. The difference between solving a jigsaw puzzle and forcing the pieces together to call it solved. It has some flaws but the way hard CC is handled isn't one of them.

Also, I found that the AI likes to focus targets with lower HP, so balancing Con has the benefit of making the enemy spread their damage rather than focus one target to death. The exact mechanics of the game's aggro system are beyond me though. There are also ways other than armor to provide immunity to certain CC, including potions and the rested status.



1-lie, never bothered with crafting in the first game, everything i equiped i found and i finished the game no problems.

2-lie again, stratagey doesn't mean cheese the AI until you are able to win, you will still be reloading like crazy until a fight plays in a certain way so you are able to win it.

3-AI is psychic it will focus characters with traits like glass cannon or undead without knowing shit about that, so yeah, there goes your fucking strategy, the AI outright cheats.

1. All that means is the first game was too easy. There were a lot of ways that worked, most of them revolved around a single simple tactic that works 90% of the time, like knockdown spam.

2. That's not cheese. It's the very definition of strategy to find individual tactics tailored to the encounters. Cheese would be if a single simple tactic worked 90% of the time, which it doesn't.

3. It's not cheating. The player can inspect enemies with Loremaster skill and see their undead traits too (if it wasn't obvious) as well as their resistances. They would be able to see glass cannon just as easily if any enemies actually had it. The AI isn't using any information here that isn't also available to the players.


hahaha

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