Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General Another idea for rework armor #larianreworkarmor

#larianreworkarmor

The system can be changed so that everyone is satisfied.
Personally, I also like the idea of ​​protection from control. But this realization is horror and nightmare.
The problem is that the protection is too powerful. It protects from damage, and from control. and even from different types of damage!
If you make one type of defense, combining the mage and fiz, add a chance pass depending on how much protection the target has left, plus remove the defense against damage - there will be an ideal system.

For example, what now:
The enemy has 200 health, 100 defense, 300 magic shields. In total, you get 300 health from physical attacks, and 500 health from magical attacks.
Thus, in a group of bow, warrior and two magicians, only warriors will beat him. Two people from the group can just go drinking tea.
In the system I proposed, there will be:
600 health, and 400 protection against control. Protection from control decreases with damage, but does not protect against damage. Thus, any damage damages both protection and health. So the group from the magic and physical damage will be full.

Further. it turns out that if the goal of 600 health is 100%, then no control will work on it.
If the health falls to 400 (which means 200 protection remains), there will be a 50% chance of passing the controls.
And with a drop in health to 200, the chance of passing control is 100%.

That is, in fact, nothing will change except that groups with different types of damage will be as effective as groups with one type of damage.
While now groups with one type of damage are times more efficient than mixed groups.

#larianreworkarmorandinitiative

I think we need suggestions that would not break saves, so they can be used for an update or an expansion pack.

Armor: a rough and easy fix would be double the vitality for all characters, but they receive 2X damage if lose both armors. Controls might be quite handy under such system when you only break one armor of the target.

Initiave: change to the classical move order system, character with higher initiative move earlier. But investing on wits should have diminished returns on initiave, so the first-mover advantage would be more in proportion to its disadvantage (less points for other attributes).

@OP this is actually a really good suggestion, and I like it alot. If you made the CC protection 2/3 of the life of the person, that decreased with all damage, it would function as a buffer to make CC more effective the closer the person was to being dead. Not only does this seem balanced, but it also makes sense in a real world sort of way. The only way I would change it would be having skills that increased CC armor like bodybuilding and willpower did, or give certain characters an innate resistance to it as well.



I feel like this wouldn't fix the core issue of the armor system, that being all effects other than hard CC are useless , and the fact that when one type of armor is removed they will be CC'ed for eternity. Those are the problems that need to be addressed. In the post above, his system would allow non hard CC to go through all the time, but also make it so you can only chain CC enemies that are nearly dead, which is fine as you could probably kill them anyway. This means that the enemies you would want to attempt to CC would have higher health and a chance to resist it.

No, right there...

The whole point was to remove RNG on CC and debilitating effects, which is the most frustrating RNG there was in first game.

What SHOULD be done instead a good portion of all incoming damage going to vitality regardless of armor, so that mixed teams are not in disadvantage and you don't have these silly cases where something with 10 vitality remaining can shrug off Meteor Storm just because it has stacked Magic Armor.

But armor protecting against CC and debuffs should remain as is.

You end up with a situation where it becomes impossible to strip armor at all before killing the enemy. Also it takes away or diminishes the ability to increase effective HP via gear, meaning they would have to rework itemization heavily.

My suggestion in the other thread was fairly simple to implement. All damage types affect both armors. They do 100% damage to their targetted armor, and damage to the other type of armor based on the ratio of armors. This effectively simulates an enemy being "weak" to physical attacks because they have less physical than magic armor, but allows both damage types to contribute to armor reduction. Probably have to multiply all armor by about 1.5 in order to compensate for the increase effective damage, but that's an easy fix.

How it works. Say you have 100 physical armor and 200 magic armor. An attack does 50 Physical damage. This attack strips 50 physical armor (the target) and 100 magic armor. It does more to the magic armor because this character is "weak" to physical damage. An attack that did 50 magic damage would instead do 50 to magic, and only 25 to physical because they are "strong" against magic. An all physical or all magic party will be able to break through exactly as fast as they would have, but a mixed party will break through faster, so buffing the armor numbers slightly to compensate makes mixed parties more desirable.

Also, armor should ONLY block CC. Other debuffs, such as diseased or burning should be completely unaffected by armor. Like many have said it makes these abilities pretty much useless, especially since once armor is gone you can consider the target already dead due to the prevalence of hard-CC. He's probably never going to take another turn anyway.

Hmmm... I don't like the silly hashtag/faux social movement thing, but I think parts of the idea have merit.


I like the idea of damage always hits Vitality, but status effects require breaking armor.
However, I would not merge both Physical and Magical Control into one, I would keep them separate. So Physical attacks do direct damage to Vitality and to Physical Control, and Magical attacks would do direct damage to Vitality and Magical Control. This would still help mixed parties.

I also like the idea that some enemies can be effectively immune to control by boosting their Physical/Magical armor to match their health, although it should be used sparingly, on specific enemies or bosses.

I am also opposed to the idea of percentage chances of status effects working through control. That's the sort of thing armor was created to prevent in the first place.


It's probably not happening unless there's an EE, though, it would be a lot of re-balancing.




I think that something like this would also work.

I like RNG. And think, that system in first game was really good!

So, if you don't like that, you can destroy all armor before control enemy.
So, if you like that - you can try control enemy with some chance.

I think it's the best solution.

But here another problem.
For example, assasin has magic debuffs. Archer has magic arrows.
But in the current situation, they are useless, because they require the destruction of magic protection, and they do not have magic damage.

A warrior also has magical control - and no magic damage. Some schools of magic have physical control, and there is no physical damage. This is strange and stupid.

In general, it is possible to keep the undressed type of protection from noctils, but then it will be necessary to completely re-balance the effects of control and protection from them.
For example, to make a dream, dumbness, charm passing through both types of armor, and not just through one. The provocation is always done. Well and further in such spirit.

If I design the system from the ground up:
No armors.
All skills start cool down at the begining of battle, so no first turn CC.
Characters have a "CC tolerance" percentage bar, each turn under hard CC, it increases depend on how strong the CC is, charm should be more than silence for example. Once the value is over 100%, it loses 100%, not return to 0% if there is overflow, and the character get immunity to all hard CC for two turns. Soft CC do not interact with it.

Yes, arrows do magic damage and there are some magic-damaging things in the assassin. The damage portion will hit vitality and lower magic armor, helping the mages. Isn't the point of the idea to make mixed magic/physical teams work better together? They still can even with the two types of control.

It will reduce to the same, by the point you got rid of that protection you mat aswell just kill the enemy, this will keep making CC useless.

The ideas i proposed in this thread are more acceptable:

http://larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=622818#Post622818

Not necessarily. If the Vitality is set to a point where they'll still be alive once the Protection is lost, and if the Protection is generally substantially lower than Vitality, enemies can still be worth CC'ing because they CAN'T be immediately killed as soon as Protection is gone. That will require tweaking and testing, but I think it's possible.

Additionally, keeping the split between Magical and Physical Protection and having them be different values, instead of mashed into one catchall Protection means that different CC's will be effective on different enemies.

What do you mean by "more acceptable", Zherot? In any case, your idea includes the same "percentage chance for status effect" which is exactly what the armor system in D:OS 2 was created to replace, so I'm not convinced that is the way to go.

I meant exactly what you just said, in his example the protection was just too great to bother with CC once removed.

The things i proposed are not perfect but i think it is better in terms of making the game a bit like the previous game but with the new armor system which will prevent you to CC everyone on the first turn but will not make CC completely useless if armor is not removed.

Gaidax, I have to admit the idea of taking Vitality AND Armor (as appropriate) is interesting, and it lets characters of all types contribute to a fight.

The armor functions as a "buffer" to protect you from CC as well as reducing the "real" damage that you end up taking.

So if you get hit for 80 Air Damage, that'd be 40 Magic Armor, 40 Vitality you take.

However, this would require some thought about how to change a few skills like Necromancer (only triggers if you do Vitality damage) and Perseverance (for obvious reasons). You might also need to make tweaks to Hydrosophist and Geomancer as well because of how they work with Armor.

But ... I do like the idea and think its more elegant of a system than the flat "ignore all damage until the appropriate Armor type is gone" system.

Zherot ... they made the change because they wanted to move AWAY from "chance" and more toward "guarantees". This would mean you could plan and plot on how to take an enemy down and not have to rely on the random nature of RNG.

You simply don't LIKE the idea of guaranteed CC, with conditions attached. It's not a BAD idea, you just don't LIKE it.

Should a group be penalized on honor mode just because they tried to CC a target five rounds in a row and RNG kept failing? Or should the group be able to think and plan and outmaneuver the enemy and beat him because of their skill, gear and group layout?

The answer to the former should be NO. The answer to the latter of course should be YES.

Penalizing a player on "hardcore" modes because of the fickle nature of dice is not what you call a good idea. It only ends up pissing people off. The hardest difficulties should encourage and require SKILL to beat. Rolling the virtual dice is NOT skill.

Does the armor system need changes? Yes.

Pretty much nobody denies that.

But I think you'll notice that the majority do NOT want a return to "roll the dice and pray it goes off."

How do you want to know, if the majority is against the old system? There is noway in knowing that, because the majority is not in the forum in will never be there. Even the poll about the armor system is hardly representative, also I don't know how easily you could vote more than once in that poll if you really wanted to.

Also you don't know, how many of the pollers ever played the first game, so if they were really able to evaluate the difference.

Pen & Paper games are quite popular and they are pretty much all about rolling dices. Calling the D:OS1 system RNG is just abusing prejudices and misunderstandings.

Skill gear and group layout ? What the fuck are you smoking man ?

With this armor system, skill is cheese in tactician/honor.
Even worse : when you are not cheesing, you are just wanting to... you know... FULL BURST THE TARGET LIKE A RETARD TO BREAK THIS GODDAMN SHIELDS.

Gear is... "over the top" in term of scaling.

Group layout ? Huh, when I'm playing a mixed team, I always think "God, my mages are 3 times less effective than my 2h beast and my Great Reaper archer of doom with arrow rain"

You know, I was not even aware that RNG cc was a problem. I mean every rpg I played in my life was using a roll dice system with resistance to elements and miss chances... like in a RPG you know !!

Now it's 100% stun.

So in the end, the game is boring at the start (no cc, only burst to put down shields), and at the end (no shields, so perma stun for the enemy, amazing really).

And pls, don't use terms like majority and stuff like that, I was never bothered by the chance system. It was like a true rpg. Now it's... just dull.

I could just use the exact same crap you are saying, "you just don't like how the original was, it is not bad, the problem is you"

The current system is TERRIBLE, it is poorly implemented and makes the game so pathetically unfun it is a joke.

Forum-made poll is one of the most bias source ever especially with how easy it is to manipulate the result and vote multiple times. If we really want a poll result, have Larian do it.

The matter of people used to playing D:OS1 should not be a factor. Any game industry know that are not supposed to make game that will perfectly cater to the old players, but to try something that capture as many players as possible for it to be successful. D:OS2 did just that.

And from comments I get from people who never played D:OS1 before and just picking up D:OS 2, they all like the system. This comes from a bunch of people that I know avidly play DnD too.

If the majority of your playerbase is liking the game, it's a success, not a fail. Unless they are feeling generous, there is absolutely no reason for Larian to rework the game to cater to old players. The veterans will have to go work on their own mods for that if they hate the current system.

People have already voted with their wallet and we see where the result is. If the armor system is so terrible, it wouldn't have this much player online at all time. The moment they give you the ability to mod the game, they have already given the minority to fix their own issues and they will only step in if the issue breaks the game for the majority of the player and their experience, like Lucky Charm and Reactive armor nerfs.

Ellezard, the "reduced bloat" mod is a perfect example of fixing things that people had issues with.