Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
Even 0.1% is stronger than 0%.

Edit : And there, we just fall right into the "rebalance the whole game around it" hole again.

Last edited by Ellezard; 02/10/17 11:00 PM.
Joined: Sep 2017
N
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
N
Joined: Sep 2017
The idea that the proposed system (even with its current simplicity) would allow MORE CC than the game currently allows is frankly pretty laughable...

Don't use completely arbitrary numbers for your "calculations" and expect to be taken seriously.

Not to mention that you are ignoring several other factors that are already present in the game.



Currently you have 100% chance of stunlocking from the beggining of a fight with Phoenix Dive overpower, then afterwards you can use those same earthquakes you used as an example to stunlock the entire map...

I don't think creating this sort of arbitrary scenarios prove anything, I use it as an example of how it will not always be true (If anything both the current situation and the proposed "solution" point out to the obvious problem currently in the game).

But, I can't really see how any change to the current system would allow MORE CC. The only enemies that currently don't stay down from beggining to end are the imune ones.

Last edited by NeoAnubis; 02/10/17 11:17 PM.
Joined: Sep 2017
Roamer Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
... and late someone will write "why are u repeating it all the time... its anoying"


Game Quality Control
Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
I already cleared the game on tactician so I know exactly what damage I will be doing across the game to make a joke out of it.

Phoenix Dive - Overpower doesn't even work unless you are fighting in Act 2 with way better gear and it crits. Unless you're using that level 18 unique weapon in Act 3, your chance of it happening is less than 15% on a normal enemy and if you hit level 20 with that weapon, the crit won't even break the armor because of scaling.

if the whole 100% CC chance happens to a SINGLE TARGET because of a source skill dealing too much damage right off the bat, maybe his whole "Increase armor" he mentioned will completely fix it too? And it will even be more tactical because my next hit will still have 0% chance to CC, not 50-75% on everything that isn't a mage because of how auto-scaling of mobs work. (Something like 75-25, 50-50 and 25-75 on resist based on role with 100-0 and 0-100 on some creatures depending on their role).

It's far more tactical to learn to spread and plan your damage so Earthquake can knock multiple targets and be chained than to just use it for the damage anyway and hope it works. RNG CC will just make me roll multiple crit-mages and spam the largest damaging + CC AoE in the game, or a bunch of ranger with CC on every hit. Scoundrel? LOLwhoplaysthem?

Joined: Sep 2017
Roamer Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Ellezard

It's far more tactical to learn to spread and plan your damage


Haha, thats again smile U are not the first smile
Its far more tactical to plan and take all possible risks and die and resurect but win! :)))


Btw, give us some numbers from ur build, cos i cant belive u

Originally Posted by Ellezard

Scoundrel? LOLwhoplaysthem?

Ofc with over 3000% possible multipliers... who playsthem?
just with 70 FIN, 20 warfare, 20 scoundrel and Guerilla
its like x4.5x2x2.5x1.4 =x31.5 (3050%) and u still could have +from Huntsman, Dualwield, runes, gears and some other dmg multipliers and boosts.
2 Daggers with 155-165 dmg = (160+80)x31.5 = 7440 - the lowest possible dmg of whoplaysthem

Last edited by Roamer; 02/10/17 11:50 PM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Sep 2017
N
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
N
Joined: Sep 2017
You do know you can prebuff characters right? And enemies don't.

I finished it on tactician, there was never a scenario where phoenix dive overpower couldn't knockdown, not EVER (unless the enemy was immune but that is an entirely different story.), overpower doesn't need to crit, it only needs the character to have more armor than the enemy (so always). I was running only one character with it though, the game is already easy enough.

And don't get me started on how enemies can only try to keep up (and they still fail) by cheating both the turn order and "loremaster".

Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
You don't even need the number if I say

"Highground Meteor Shower/Arrow storm"

Anyone that cleared the game will laugh at the difficulty when those are mentioned.

But if you want exact numbers,

Enemies at level 20 tactician have like 1673 armor 7803 magic and 9838 for mages. Range sits at 5k 5k armor/mr and sword just flip the mages armor and magic.

Boss have like 8k 8k 20k health.

a TANK mage, not crit mage with maxed int does 1.5k earthquake per cast at 2 + 3 Geomancer.

If I remove that leadership and use another +2 Geo ring and +1 Geo hat on my Fane, I can go for 10 + 6 Geomancer which boost the damage from +25% to +75%, jumping to about 2.2k damage. (I have all th egears btw)

And get Wits
And get + Crit chance weapon (since mage don't need weapon, they just get crit weapon)
and +10 crit chance from hot head.
And +5% from Ingenious (fane is a human mage)
And +12% from fire rune necklace slot

my level 21 Fane can easily be spec'd to deal 4k damage per earthquake since it's almost guaranteed to crit. The only thing keeping me from doing that is their magic resist but even that is not enough if I make 2 mages or to abuse the "RNG CC" even more, 3 mages.

Originally Posted by Roamer

Ofc with over 3000% possible multipliers... who playsthem?
just with 70 FIN, 20 warfare, 20 scoundrel and Guerilla
its like x4.5x2x2.5x1.4 =x31.5 (3050%) and u still could have +from Huntsman, Dualwield and some other dmg multipliers and boosts


Wish I have that much multiplier in the real game too because you went over so many stat caps. Actually, all of them.

Originally Posted by NeoAnubis
You do know you can prebuff characters right? And enemies don't.

I finished it on tactician, there was never a scenario where phoenix dive overpower couldn't knockdown, not EVER (unless the enemy was immune but that is an entirely different story.), overpower doesn't need to crit, it only needs the character to have more armor than the enemy (so always). I was running only one character with it though, the game is already easy enough.

And don't get me started on how enemies can only try to keep up (and they still fail) by cheating both the turn order and "loremaster".


If you're abusing Anathema, that's another story. That thing is made to break the game.

Or you're using pre-buff Fortify then that's a different min-max better. (Where pre-hasted eyed Highground ARrowstorm + Balistic is way stronger)

Last edited by Ellezard; 02/10/17 11:56 PM.
Joined: Sep 2017
Roamer Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Ellezard

Wish I have that much multiplier in the real game too because you went over so many stat caps. Actually, all of them.


Lone wolf. Do u know? in my exemple i spend 20 points on schools(that is possible on lvl 20) and 30 points on FIN (that is possible on lvl 15). I Have even more to reach maybe x88? smile Yeah, assasin creed, jump from highground = x63 (15120 min dmg)... +runes+gear+buffs lets reach 100 000 form 1 hit :))

Last edited by Roamer; 03/10/17 12:00 AM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Sep 2017
N
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
N
Joined: Sep 2017
I don't think you realise how overpower works. Your weapon is completely irrelevant using it, Anathema serves no purpose there.

And again, you're not talking about a system, you're making arbitrary assumptions.

As flawed as it is, there is no situation where the proposed system would allow more CC than the game currently allows.

Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
Originally Posted by Roamer
Originally Posted by Ellezard

Wish I have that much multiplier in the real game too because you went over so many stat caps. Actually, all of them.


Lone wolf. Do u know? in my exemple i spend 20 points on schools(that is possible on lvl 20) and 30 points on FIN (that is possible on lvl 15)


Lone wolf is broken and we all know it. Don't balance the game around something that is obviously busted. That's like saying current Arrow storm is fair.

And if that is high for you, do Archer. Same damage, bigger range, more CC since highground and crit shares the same multiplier.

Originally Posted by NeoAnubis
I don't think you realise how overpower works. Your weapon is completely irrelevant using it, Anathema serves no purpose there.

And again, you're not talking about a system, you're making arbitrary assumptions.

As flawed as it is, there is no situation where the proposed system would allow more CC than the game currently allows.


I already did the math for earthquake in the final fight as the dude requested WITHOUT lonewolf. You can knock down 1 char with buffed overpower or I can just cast Earthquake twice and be given 50%-75% chance to knock down all of them with the proposed system. I went and checked the number for this and 4k per earthquake crit isn't over the top.

Last edited by Ellezard; 03/10/17 12:03 AM.
Joined: Sep 2017
Roamer Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Pls again
so u hitting 4000 EQ vs how many phys and mag armor?

Last edited by Roamer; 03/10/17 12:06 AM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
Enemies at level 20 tactician have like 1673 armor 7803 magic and 9838 for mages. Range sits at 5k 5k armor/mr and sword just flip the mages armor and magic.

You clearly skimmed the thing.

9838 is vit btw.

Imagine if I bust out the ezmodolonewolves too so the first cast deal 8k instead and break the entire thing. The second one might as well just kill.

Last edited by Ellezard; 03/10/17 12:09 AM.
Joined: Sep 2017
Roamer Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
so in 2 EQ u shred 7800 m.armor to zero and have 100% cc on second EQ? (edited. forgot about p.resist vs knokdown, my bad) cos in current system CC works not before but after dmg

So what is ur problem? U want that 100% on second hit or not?
Cos even with ur low dmg, seems like u always have 100% cc in current system

Last edited by Roamer; 03/10/17 12:29 AM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
Originally Posted by Roamer
so in 2 EQ u shred 7800 m.armor to zero and have 100% cc on second EQ? cos in current system CC works not before but after dmg

So what is ur problem? U want that 100% on second hit or not?


Non lone-wolf run will not break the armor until the 2nd cast and even if it breaks, it doesn't knock because knock is a physical CC. That's how the skill is kept in powercheck. You either get massive AoE damage or massive CC. Removing the limitation and adding RNG instead just make the skill a "Use and forget" which is the opposite of tactical. Many CC-related and magical skill will suffer from this.

And Lone wolf should never be used for balance. That thing is an issue on an its own and should be nerfed. I don't even need to EArthquake CC that fight with RNG. The darn thing already kills.




Last edited by Ellezard; 03/10/17 12:20 AM.
Joined: Sep 2017
Roamer Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
I see
Can u shred 1600 p.armor? or ur party is bad with it?
Or maybe after 2 EQ use some magic CC?

Anyway as u see its possible to 100% CC in the first round in current system

In suggested system ur chances to CC in first round will be less then 100%

Last edited by Roamer; 03/10/17 12:27 AM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
Then I get to use Earthquake for CC but not for Damage. See? Tradeoff. Tactical.

You're trying to nit pick so hard you're missing the points.

If RNG cc becomes a thing, non-CC abilities will suck unless we nerf all the CC-related skill damage to be wayyy less than non-cc. Why would I ever use move that deals the same damage but doesn't have bonus attached?

You're not asking for just an armor change. You're also asking for an entire game rebalanced around it. Might as well be a new game.

Last edited by Ellezard; 03/10/17 12:28 AM.
Joined: Sep 2017
Roamer Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Dont want to offtop about rebalancing all things

SO...
In current system its possible to have 100% CC in first round even with not perfect builds or party compositions (and, btw, some builds dont need secind roun - like Pyro: Phoenix dive -> firesurface under u -> -1 AP cost for fire spells, adrenaline rush, flesh sacrifice -> nova, laser,fireboll -> executioner +2ap... some other spells = GG in half round)

In Suggested - its imposible to have 100%. (and, btw, it emulating realistic dmg absorbtion)

Why do we need that gray and blue HP bars? smile

Last edited by Roamer; 03/10/17 12:44 AM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
You're also missing that 0.1% is still better than 0%.

And specific cc protection is a thing.

And you completely ignore the part about my Earthquake ccing MULTIPLE targets in the suggested system while the current one will only work on the chosen focused target. RNG dice roll on AoE breaks the game even more than focus-fire CC while being nowhere near tactical as moves become "Fire-and-forget".

Why even ask me to bring up the flaw if the whole thing is going to be brickwall'd.

Joined: Sep 2017
Roamer Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Ellezard

And you completely ignore the part about my Earthquake ccing MULTIPLE targets in the suggested system


who said that? or do u know exect numbers of armors in suggested system?

Even with current 1600 and 7800

- first cast of EQ will have 0% CC chance, as it counts before DMG.
- second cast will have:
1 - (1600+7800-4000)/(1600+7800) = 43% so u could CC Half of all enemies.
- third cast (like chainlightning+Rain or another AOE CC even third EQ) u will have:
1 - (9400-8000) /9400 = 85%

In 3 casts u cant 100% CC all enemies in suggested system

In current system u could CC with 100% chance in 3 or less casts

Last edited by Roamer; 03/10/17 01:08 AM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
Originally Posted by Roamer
Originally Posted by Ellezard

And you completely ignore the part about my Earthquake ccing MULTIPLE targets in the suggested system


who said that? or do u know exect numbers of armors in suggested system?

Even with current 1600 and 7800

- first cast of EQ will have 0% CC chance, as it counts before DMG.
- second cast will have:
1 - (1600+7800-4000)/1600+7800 = 43% so u could CC Half of all enemies.
- third cast (like chainlightning+Rain) u will have
1 - (9400-8000) /9400 = 85%

In 3 casts u cant 100% CC all enemies in suggested system

In current system u could CC with 100% chance in 3 or less casts


I just bolded the problematic part for you.

If you can't see why being able to shut the entire team instead of a limited amount of enemies from your combo, it's hard to talk about being tactical.

Not to mention you're using a low physical armor target to make it easy to say "Break armor and CC multiple targets with knock down".

Again actual enemies with a 4-man non lonewolf abusing comp, game-winning skills like Earthquake is almost never used before T2 to guarantee maximum efficiency. When you actually have to consider when to use what skill for best effect, that is tactical. When you just drop multiple of them because "lololtheymightwork", that's not tactical.

Last edited by Ellezard; 03/10/17 01:06 AM.
Page 3 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Elwyn, gbnf, Larian_Koala 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5