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Originally Posted by Igniz13
Give an example of tactics you get from your system.


Exemple
Your tactic is

1. Deal DMG to this one guy
2. Deal CC to this one guy
3. Leave lone dual-wands mage in peace cos he will not help 3 phys dd in that fight.

My tactic is

1. I will try to deal dmg to this one ranged guy
1.1 if i miss than i cant CC him and recive tons of dmg so my mage should be ready to heal and buff me some dodge and deal some dmg to increase my overall CC chances.
1.2. if i not miss, than my mage should not heal me but slowdown that melee enemy who is very close and TP him away

2. if 1.2 is true then i will try to CC that guy
2.1 if i miss with CC then i should prepare my resurecting scroll, but i have a good chances so ill take that risk
2.2 if i not miss with CC so all party members should focus that melee guy

so on

Big tree with many branches of decisions

Last edited by Roamer; 05/10/17 05:26 PM.

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Originally Posted by Roamer
Good morning everyone who still waiting for Devs decisions smile


What makes you think that after all the other feedback, that this thread has prompted the developers into making a decision?

You're new here, so you might not be aware that it is rare for a developer to post on the forums, so if you're going to keep bumping the thread until a developer responds, you'll be doing a lot of fruitless bumping.

Also, no matter what tweaks that may or may not happen, your idea of going back to percentage-based CC resist is almost certainly NOT happening because the entire reason the armor system exists is to replace that idea.

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Stabbey, I know all u saying smile I thought as the OLDONE u understand what i am doing smile
Its more interesting for me to play forum games than to play DoS 2. Its dead game for me, i dont care about money or something only about trust to some Devs.

Originally Posted by Stabbey

Also, no matter what tweaks that may or may not happen, your idea of going back to percentage-based CC resist is almost certainly NOT happening because the entire reason the armor system exists is to replace that idea.


No problem. This topic is not about ideas but about reworks. They could create non RNG system.
But, please, make it logical, interesting, and for any possible party combinations.

P.S. btw, i am new here just because i forgot all informations of previous acc smile

Last edited by Roamer; 05/10/17 03:44 PM.

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Fair enough, here's my idea, which I'm sure has some holes in it. I'm also sure that it's unlikely to end up in the game.


Keep both Magical and Physical Armors, keep them blocking Physical and Magical status effects...

But split the damage so that Physical attacks do, 67-75% of their damage to Physical Armor, and 33-25% of their damage to Magical Armor. Magical attacks are the reverse (67-75% to Magical, 33-25% to Physical). This allows for better synergy between mixed teams. For the moment, let's say that the damage split is 75-25, that seems to make the most sense, I don't want to weaken the damage types versus their type of armor too much.

If one type of armor is gone but the other is still up, damage from the opposing type can seep through to Vitality at the same rate.


Let's take a enemy, call it "Vazgar" which has 500 health, 0 Physical armor, and 300 Magical Armor.

So a Magic attack which does 100 damage and inflicts a CC, hitting Vazgar. The spell will do 75 damage to the Magical armor, and 25 damage to health. The CC is blocked because magic armor remains. Vazgar now has 475 HP and 225 Magical armor.

A Physical attack does 100 damage and inflicts Bleed hitting Vazgar will do 75 damage to vitality and inflict Bleed (no Physical Armor to block it), and 25 damage to Magic armor, reducing it to 200.

Obviously once both armors are gone all damage goes to health and statuses will land. The amount of health provided to all characters might need to be increased slightly to compensate for the faster rate of death thanks to armor no longer absorbing all the damage.

***

This is mostly the current system, but it has a dramatic effect on the effectivenes of mixed parties, because now attackers of one damage type help out attackers of the other damage type a little by reducing the opposing armor, and once one type of armor is depleted, some damage can seep through directly to health.



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Yes, but we already have the possibility to split dmg. U cold have weapon with mag and phys dmg. Or even Hybrid build.

More easiest to leave CC as it is (some guys who shit on me here would be happy), but add dmg absorbtion from my image (w/o deminishing effect so it should be rounded or something).

Anyway binary CC is for binary players

Last edited by Roamer; 05/10/17 03:59 PM.

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Originally Posted by Roamer
Yes, but we already have the possibility to split dmg. U cold have weapon with mag and phys dmg. Or even Hybrid build.


Neither of those things is what I am talking about.

Some weapons have a fractional bit of added damage. They also can have runes attached. Neither is relevant to the system. 75% of the magic damage on the weapon, whether inherent or from runes, would hit magic armor, 25% would hit physical armor.

Hybrid builds are also not what I am talking about. They are inherently weaker because of stat-splitting, and weaker still because of their increased Memory requirements. I am talking about allowing pure fighters and pure mages to contribute, regardless of which type of armor the enemy has.

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More easiest to leave CC as it is (some guys who shit on me here would be happy), but add dmg absorbtion from my image (w/o deminishing effect so it should be rounded or something).


The damage absorption thing seems pretty complicated and even more difficult to understand than my idea. It's also flawed because you are giving damage absorption to magic attacks as well, when magic attacks already have resistances to deal with. Physical attacks don't, so adding absorption to both still leaves magic attacks weaker.


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Anyway binary CC is for binary players


What does that even mean other than "I don't like it so anyone who does is wrong"? Well fine. Anyone who does like non-binary CC is wrong. Now what?

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Originally Posted by Roamer
Its more interesting for me to play forum games

<_<


J'aime le fromage.
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Originally Posted by Roamer

My tactic is

1. I will try to deal dmg to this one ranged guy
1.1 if i miss than i cant CC him and recive tons of dmg so my mage should be ready to heal and buff me some dodge and deal some dmg to increase my overall CC chances.
1.2. if i not miss, than my mage should not heal me but slowdown that melee enemy who is very close and TP him away

2. if 1.2 is true then i will try to CC that guy
2.1 if i miss with CC then i should prepare my resurecting scroll, but i have a good chances so ill take that risk
2.2 if i not miss with CC so all party members should focus that melee guy


This works in games without RNG, too. An example from Invisible Inc.:

You see a guard in a room

You can kill him, but this requires expensive ammunition and the alert level of the mission will increase. The money for the expensive ammunition could be needed later in the mission to upgrade your gear or the increased alert level could make the mission more difficult if other guards try to locate your characters.

You can stun him for a few turns, but the guards will try to locate your characters as soon as he wakes up.

You can stun him permanently, but this requires that one character of your team stays close to the guard for the rest of the mission.

You can try to avoid him, but that could be dangerous if nearby guards try to locate your characters later in the mission.

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A stealth-based game and a combat based game are hardly that comparable. Invisibility Inc ist playing short missions so pretty different.

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Wizard1200, better give me an exemple from DoS not from Invisible Inc

Stabbey, now i understand what u mean. Sword could brake ur equipment as a result all types of defences. And again - the more ur items are broken the more dmg u will receive to HP (as on image but for both armor bars). In this case sword should deal (ph.armo/totalarmor) to phys and (m.armor/totalarmor) to mag armor.
exemple: if enemy have 600 p.armor and 400 m.armor Swords dmg will be splited in 60% dmg to ph.armor and 40% to m.armor.
So in your system we could have just 1 type of armor and result will be the same. Cos both armor types will be shreded simultaneously.


Originally Posted by Stabbey

Originally Posted by Roamer

Anyway binary CC is for binary players


What does that even mean other than "I don't like it so anyone who does is wrong"? Well fine. Anyone who does like non-binary CC is wrong. Now what?


simple systems for simple players
i didnt say "Anyone who does like non-binary CC is wrong"
in this thread i said only "Who thinks RNG is less tactical - is wrong"

P.S. I belive some guys who dont like variations will ask for more simple dialogues too... just two options in every dialogue: "Yes", "No" :)))

Last edited by Roamer; 05/10/17 06:09 PM.

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Originally Posted by Roamer
Stabbey, now i understand what u mean. Sword could brake ur equipment as a result all types of defences. And again - the more ur items are broken the more dmg u will receive to HP (as on image but for both armor bars).


Errr.. I am unclear on this. Is this still talking about M/P Armor, or do you mean to put a durability attribute onto equipment so it will literally break during combat?



Quote
In this case sword should deal (ph.armo/totalarmor) to phys and (m.armor/totalarmor) to mag armor.
exemple: if enemy have 600 p.armor and 400 m.armor Swords dmg will be splited in 60% dmg to ph.armor and 40% to m.armor.


Sort-of. I am open to changing the numbers around, although I prefer the higher number because I want there to me more of a difference between M/P attacks. The closer to 50/50 the ratio is, the less useful is is to have different damage types/armors at all.


Quote
So in your system we could have just 1 type of armor and result will be the same. Cos both armor types will be shreded simultaneously.


I disagree with making one single armor type. That's too much of a simplification, it takes away some of the interesting strategy and gameplay from having the split in armor between different characters, and the split in status types.

I do not agree that both armor types in my proposed system will be shredded simultaneously, because enemies and PC's have different amounts of physical and magical armor. So one type or another will be faster to take down.

I generally like the current system, but the part about it which I find unsatisfying is that if the encounter is weighted towards one type of attack being favoured (usually Physical), the magic users on the team often find themselves only able to chip away at enemy magical armor while the physical damage dealers are tearing through the enemy health (after the low Physical armor is long-since depleted).



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Originally Posted by Stabbey

I disagree with making one single armor type. That's too much of a simplification, it takes away some of the interesting strategy and gameplay from having the split in armor between different characters, and the split in status types.

I do not agree that both armor types in my proposed system will be shredded simultaneously, because enemies and PC's have different amounts of physical and magical armor. So one type or another will be faster to take down.



Even if dmg split percentages are not equal to armors split percentages (but should be equal than sword slice a robe) - both armors will be shredded almost at the same time. Its not interesting. Not tactical. Its the same to have just 1 armor type.

And i dont want 1 armor type too.

Originally Posted by Stabbey


Errr.. I am unclear on this. Is this still talking about M/P Armor, or do you mean to put a durability attribute onto equipment so it will literally break during combat?



We already have virtual durability - that numbers of armors on every item, and we could brake it in battles dealing dmg to gray and blue bars.

Last edited by Roamer; 05/10/17 06:37 PM.

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Originally Posted by Roamer

Even if dmg split percentages are not equal to armors split percentages (but should be equal than sword slice a robe) - both armors will be shredded almost at the same time. Its not interesting. Not tactical. Its the same to have just 1 armor type.


I don't see how, because the typical enemy does not have 500/500 Physical and Magical armor, but more like 350 P / 650 M.

There certainly are some enemies which do have the same amount of P/M armor, but generally, they are different most of the time.

Right now, if I have a party of 2 Magic-damage dealers and 2 Physical-damage dealers, and I attack an enemy with 350 P / 650 M armor, the Physical damage dealers will break through the physical armor first, and the Magic-damage dealers aren't going to contribute to killing or disabling the enemy until they chip off a lot more armor.

Even only dealing 25% of their damage to physical, which then breaks through to vitality after physical armor gets broken, that would be an improvement to at least feel more effective.



Quote
We already have virtual durability - that numbers of armors on every item, and we could brake it in battles dealing dmg to gray and blue bars.


I think I still don't understand. Is what you are talking about different than the current system of breaking blue and grey bars?

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Stabbey

I don't see how, because the typical enemy does not have 500/500 Physical and Magical armor, but more like 350 P / 650 M.

Abstract enemy have only mega-pants with 350 p /650 m.
(Dont u forget that this values is on ur gear?)

U are striking with a sword. With every 100 dmg hit his pants loosing 100 total armor - and ofc its 35 p and 65 m. U can not shread with ur hits (for exemple) only magical protecting patrs of the pants smile

Your system is realistic, logical but almost same like having 1 type of armor. Second is unnessesary

P.S. Even if u split weapon dmg in some unlogical values like 10%/90%, in mid- and lategame it will be enough to shred all at the same time cos of OP dmg. Some Assasin with Highground jump in final fight - backstubbing 15000+ vs 1500/8000 and 9000 hp. and the enemy is ready to all types of cc. Or another partymember with 80%/20% weapon could do the same vs 8000/2000.

it is not good that 1 party member coold shread both enemy resists at the same time.

But if dont split weapon dmg in your system and make weapons possible to hit armors simultaneously (like in pants exemle) but add new ingame stats like physical and magical resist it will be unable to shread both armors at the same time

Last edited by Roamer; 05/10/17 10:33 PM.

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Originally Posted by Roamer
[(Dont u forget that this values is on ur gear?)[/color]


Not sure what the relevance of that is?

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U are striking with a sword. With every 100 dmg hit his pants loosing 100 total armor - and ofc its 35 p and 65 m. U can not shread with ur hits (for exemple) only magical protecting patrs of the pants smile


Yes, that is the idea. The idea being to make mixed parties of magical and physical damage dealers work better together.


Quote
P.S. Even if u split weapon dmg in some unlogical values like 10%/90%, in mid- and lategame it will be enough to shred all at the same time cos of OP dmg.


That's an argument against bad balancing of armor and power in the mid-to-late game, not against the general concept of splitting damage types.


Quote
it is not good that 1 party member coold shread both enemy resists at the same time.


But, in a properly balanced system, it is specifically NOT shredding BOTH resists at the same time.

The damage is split so that most of it goes to one type or another, AND enemy armor values are often significantly imbalanced as well. The biggest difference is that when one armor type falls, the opposing damage type isn't wasted taking down armor while the other teammates are doing health damage.

Of course a change like this would require rebalancing values of armor and health (and damage) for both players and enemies. And since that's not likely to happen, I think I've probably said enough on this topic as it is.


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Originally Posted by Stabbey
opposing damage type isn't wasted


Same as in suggested system in this thread.
But w/o adding of split dmg on weapons. And opposing damage type deals HP dmg after shredding at least 1% of armor not after shredding full armor.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Roamer; 06/10/17 08:03 AM.

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Originally Posted by Roamer
Originally Posted by Igniz13
Give an example of tactics you get from your system.


Exemple
Your tactic is

1. Deal DMG to this one guy
2. Deal CC to this one guy
3. Leave lone dual-wands mage in peace cos he will not help 3 phys dd in that fight.

My tactic is

1. I will try to deal dmg to this one ranged guy
1.1 if i miss than i cant CC him and recive tons of dmg so my mage should be ready to heal and buff me some dodge and deal some dmg to increase my overall CC chances.
1.2. if i not miss, than my mage should not heal me but slowdown that melee enemy who is very close and TP him away

2. if 1.2 is true then i will try to CC that guy
2.1 if i miss with CC then i should prepare my resurecting scroll, but i have a good chances so ill take that risk
2.2 if i not miss with CC so all party members should focus that melee guy

so on

Big tree with many branches of decisions


I asked you to give an example that's better than dumping on the enemy and praying.

You gave the example of dumping on the enemy and praying.

Let's say your warrior starts off with battering ram to get into position, it deals damage and has an 20%-chance to knockdown anyone it hits. Next he uses crippling blow which has a 40%-chance to cripple.

Next, the mage casts lightning on the enemy which has a 50% chance to shock. Next he casts rain and everyone in the puddle has a 50%chance to be shocked or stunned.

Next turn, one of the enemy takes a step, but he lost a coin toss and loses his turn because he was already shocked and now he's stunned.

Another enemy, who had low physical armour and is at a 70% chance to be shocked, can't move so he takes some swings but that's it.

Next the party ranger uses elemental arrows and ricochet to to shred more armour and maybe shock / stun more people.

Next an enemy mage wants to heal an ally, but he can only heal magic armour, which isn't going to improve things much and it all seems a bit pointless.

Conversely, in proper dos2. Healing is deathly important and worthwhile and you're more likely only concerned about 1 armour type at a time, the enemy have a chance to fight back and some degree of thought went into actions taken.


gambling on some rng cc affect is not a deep strategic decision. It's just a sign of gambling addiction.
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Igniz13

Non RNG tactic = 10 possible decisions
Tactic with RNG = 100 possible decisions

Let's say your warrior starts off with battering ram to get into position, it deals damage and has an 20%-chance to knockdown anyone it hits.

I asked u to read this thread
CC is caclulated before DMG - so ur warrior have 0% chance

Next, the mage casts lightning on the enemy which has a 50% chance to shock

Same shit. Ur mage have like 5% chance to shock cos of wariors battering ram dmg. (all depends of given armors)

Last edited by Roamer; 06/10/17 12:14 PM.

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Originally Posted by Roamer
Same as in suggested system in this thread.
But w/o adding of split dmg on weapons. And opposing damage type deals HP dmg after shredding at least 1% of armor not after shredding full armor.


Yes, it is similar to your suggested system, I don't dislike all parts of your idea.

I do however think your Absorb% is confusing and unintuitive to understand. You would have to keep a calculator with you to figure out how much health damage you'd do and how much armor you'd strip off.

I also absolutely dislike you adding random chance for CC back into the mix. That is why the armor system exists in the first place. Adding random chance for statuses to penetrate and you might as well not have armor at all and just change all the skills back to a random chance to inflict CC.

And your system also is somewhat like a combined or one-armor system since it seems like all of both armors need to be stripped off completely before a status has a 100% chance to land. That actually FORCES a mixed party instead of merely allowing or encouraging one, because an all-physical team can no longer reliably land physical status effects as long as the enemy has magical armor remaining. And forcing a mixed party is just as bad as forcing a non-mixed party.


Originally Posted by Roamer
Igniz13

Non RNG tactic = 10 possible decisions
Tactic with RNG = 100 possible decisions


Um. Is that supposed to be a point in FAVOUR of RNG? Because it's actually the opposite. Not many people are able calculate 100 possible outcomes for every scenario in their head, and most would give up after a handful.

Last edited by Stabbey; 06/10/17 01:29 PM.
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Stabbey

I do however think your Absorb% is confusing and unintuitive to understand. You would have to keep a calculator with you to figure out how much health damage you'd do and how much armor you'd strip off.

Its Intuitive cos its realistic
U dont need to calculate alot if anyway u need to shread both armor and hp bars. U need to calculate just before full shredding like in current system too.

Um. Is that supposed to be a point in FAVOUR of RNG? Because it's actually the opposite. Not many people are able calculate 100 possible outcomes for every scenario in their head, and most would give up after a handful.

Just en exemple. In DoS2 its not like 10 and 100... more like 3 and 9 smile

And your system also is somewhat like a combined or one-armor system since it seems like all of both armors need to be stripped off completely before a status has a 100% chance to land.

could be separated CC chances for each armor

Last edited by Roamer; 06/10/17 02:16 PM.

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