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Originally Posted by cryocore
Does no one remember how bad RTwP pause is? Can anyone name an RPG that has this system, where the combat is actually good?

None, of the Infinity Engine games had good combat in my opinion. In fact it is generally the only thing people agreed was a negative aspect of those games.

PoE and Tyranny suffer because of RTwP. POEII is better with TB due to being actually able to chain abilities and use support skills/spell effectively. Sure this is subjective, but the fact that all skills and abilities can now be used properly confirms that in terms of being able to play the character(s) you created TB is the only viable option.

Dragon Age is one of the best examples of the RTwP system being ok, but its filled with trash mob fights, and only works because of the almost TB implementation. You can't play that game effectively with RT, you need to constantly pause, making it essentially a TB game in all but name.

Fallout 3... well as much fun as VATS was, it is a compromise and it make real time useless, and there lead to playing it as TB almost required. FO4 proves how bad VATS is when you cant stop it, and 76 nails the point home.

KoTOR. Maybe the best RTwP combat system ever made. And again its because it leans of TB roots, and combat sequencing that is essentially TB in execution.

RTwP is inferior in any party based game. You limit control, reduce the ability to use your skills, spells, and abilities, and rely on automation which weakens agency.

The only reason to want RTwP is if you want to speed up the game. And if that's the case then play an aRPG like The Witcher series, or Skyrim. These are also great games, and seem more in line with the experience people want to complain about the lack of RTwP.

The Gold Box games (Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secret of the Silver Blades, Champions of Krynn, etc) clearly demonstrate how much better DnD combat is when it uses rounds/turns.

For DnD TB is the only logical option. As much as I love BG (as you can see below), the move to TB is the most welcome change, even more than the graphical upgrade.

If you like RTwP, I get it and I am sorry that you're unhappy. But it's been 20 years and much has changed. Complaining about it not being in the game, would be akin to complaining that thac0 is no longer in the game. It's just not relevant anymore.

[Linked Image]

Also don't dare make statements about old school BG/IE fans. You speak for yourself, not anyone else. I am one of the most loyal and longtime fans of the BG games, and I do not consider RTwP to be even remotely important to the identity of the franchise. If you do, then in my opinion you've missed the point of what the games are actually about.



Well put , and as i said in my previous topic on which you commented , i personally dislike turn based , but the main reason i play these games has always been for the storytelling and characters , and it won't be a deal breaker for me , yes it is disappointing and i came here to discuss and voice my concern/opinion...i will just have to put my faith in the developers that they will do their best to make a game worthy of the Baldur's gate legacy...nice pic btw , it's the equivalent of showing your dick size in gaming terms hehehe

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Originally Posted by cryocore
Does no one remember how bad RTwP pause is? Can anyone name an RPG that has this system, where the combat is actually good?

What a load of arrogant speak. Do YOU not remember how much better RTwP is than TB? Are you unaware that TB is inferior in any party-based game? See how easy it is to throw out unsubstantiated and patently untrue words? And your words are as unsubstantiated and untrue as any.

Dragon Age: Origins, Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, KOTOR, Infinity Engine games... all games with enjoyable combat. If you don't like it... well, that's just you and don't you dare pretend to be speaking for everybody else.

Meanwhile, PoE 2 added TB and it didn't help the game's sales out at all and the Steam reviews for the game didn't improve by even a single percentage point. And Torment: Numenera went with TB and the game tanked - and one of the reasons it did so is because it didn't have RTwP combat, and that made a lot of fans of Planescape: Torment angry.

So, as you can see, TB simply isn't relevant anymore. Especially not in a series that is known for its RTwP combat like Baldur's Gate is - and even more so when the game in question is the father of the RTwP genre.


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None, of the Infinity Engine games had good combat in my opinion. In fact it is generally the only thing people agreed was a negative aspect of those games.

Like you said, that's your opinion. But the combat can certainly be improved from those games. Why would you think it wouldn't be? Did DA:O not improve over IE games? BG3 is the game to improve it in - while still keeping it RTwP. BG 3 should have its own take on RTwP that is better than everything done previously.


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PoE and Tyranny suffer because of RTwP. POEII is better with TB due to being actually able to chain abilities and use support skills/spell effectively. Sure this is subjective, but the fact that all skills and abilities can now be used properly confirms that in terms of being able to play the character(s) you created TB is the only viable option.

Ridiculous comment. PoE II had TB added to it and it didn't improve the Steam score of the game even 1 percentage point. And sales of the game didn't improve, either. So much for TB being popular.


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Dragon Age is one of the best examples of the RTwP system being ok, but its filled with trash mob fights, and only works because of the almost TB implementation. You can't play that game effectively with RT, you need to constantly pause, making it essentially a TB game in all but name.

That is a truly ridiculous thing to say. Dragon Age: Origins is one of the best RTwP games, and PC RPGs, there is - and its combat is a key part of what makes it a great game. And Dragon Age: Origins' combat is a lot more fun than D:OS 1 and 2's combat. Having trash mobs isn't a result of a combat system but of the encounter designs.

If you think DA:O is "basically TB", then let's have that "basically TB" combat in BG3 - that should satisfy all the TB fans and the RTwP fans in one go. But DA:O isn't "almost TB", it's a really good implementation of RTwP. It sounds to me like you don't have a good conception of what RTwP is.


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Fallout 3... well as much fun as VATS was, it is a compromise and it make real time useless, and there lead to playing it as TB almost required. FO4 proves how bad VATS is when you cant stop it, and 76 nails the point home.

Who uses VATS while playing F3? It's pointless. F3 is a real-time game with a pointless VATS system that a person can use for novelty. It RTwP isn't its combat style, FPS is..


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KoTOR. Maybe the best RTwP combat system ever made. And again its because it leans of TB roots, and combat sequencing that is essentially TB in execution.

Again, your comments show that you don't have a solid understanding of what RTwP is. And so I have to question whether you've actually played these games you mention. RTwP is built on-top of TB rounds. RTwP is an evolution and improvement over TB.


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For DnD TB is the only logical option.

You should have told that to 1999 BioWare. No doubt, they would have been so successful if all IE games had been TB. Oh wait, they have a TB combat mode and yet people play them in RTwP mode. Clearly, RTwP is preferred to TB.


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If you like RTwP, I get it and I am sorry that you're unhappy. But it's been 20 years and much has changed. Complaining about it not being in the game, would be akin to complaining that thac0 is no longer in the game. It's just not relevant anymore.

You're out of the loop. Despite its rough launch, Pathfinder: Kingmaker has done really well and is getting a sequel that people are excited for. Torment: Numenera was TB and people were angry and the game tanked. TB was added to PoE 2 and nobody cared - because TB just isn't relevant anymore.


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Also don't dare make statements about old school BG/IE fans. You speak for yourself, not anyone else.

Congratulations on making the most hypocritical post possible. You should have considered your own advice before you made your post where you asserted a bunch of bogus claims pretending that you spoke for everybody.

Your post is entirely biased opinion asserted as though you speak for everybody, when you are clearly only speaking for yourself, and seemingly from a perspective of not even being very familiar with what RTwP is.

Last edited by Delicieuxz; 28/02/20 07:19 AM.
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@ Robmyz

only speak for yourself man !

RTCOMBAT is soo much better than the stupid and boring TB combat.

I don t want to fight vs bugs every time and look +wait till the shit moves towards me. I want so smash little minions and stop the game and make rly important decisions at bossfights or at an ambush. Thats the real feeling of a GOOD RPG. Not this sleeping like TB games. Bec. of that and other facts i rly do not like dos 1+2 and now i was hyped bec. of my beloved baldurs gate +new game+.
And what do we get? a DOS 2 rip off.

Please larian, rename it DOS 3 and its ok, but pretty please...do not ruin the name of baldurs gate with your TB combat and +funny+ humore and lame music+graphic stuff.

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Well i dont think larian must change their plans for this game...

Speaking of Fallout even if it not exactly the same thing... remember Fo 1 et 2 was turn based for combat. When the third opus of the franchise came out many of "self proclamed true fans" go into absolutely mad bad buzz... because the turn by turn gameplay was gived up.

Here ... for larian it's the opposite. They cant please everyone. It s impossible.

The worse part of it ... if BG3 happen to be just a remastered version of old BG games... not sure it will make good sell in 2020.
Dont forget... angry geeks are usually the more audible of the internet but they're not always illustrative of the whole community. Think about it... how many actual players exept old ones have played BG 1 and 2? Not so many i think.

nostalgia is not always good advicer.

Last edited by The Storyteller; 28/02/20 07:39 AM.
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RTwP had nearly no upgrade since 2000... Of course it's nearly impossible to quote about a "good" RTwP game except Baldur's Gate 1 and 2.
I had a great feelings when I learned Larian's going to devellop BG3 but they betray nearly all fans of the original games to create a new genre : the "Original Sin like".


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Originally Posted by The Storyteller
Well i dont think larian must change their plans for this game...

Speaking of Fallout even if it not exaxtly the same thing... remember Fo 1 et 2 was turn based for combat. When the third opus of the franchise came out many of "self proclamed true fans" go into absolutely mad bad buzz... because the turn by turn gameplay was gived up.

Here ... for larian it's the opposite. They cant please everyone. It s impossible.

The worse part of it ... if BG3 happen to be just a remastered version of old BG games... not sure it will make good sell in 2020.
Dont forget... angry geeks are usually the more audible of the internet but they're not always illustrative of the whole community. Think about it... how many actual players exept old ones have played BG 1 and 2? Not so many i think.

Nobody wants a remastered BG1 or BG2. When Half-Life 2 came out, was it just a remastered Half-Life 1? When The Witcher 3 came out, was it just a remastere The Witcher 2? Of course not. So, why would a BG3 simply be a remastered BG1 or BG2? If BG3 has TB combat, does that mean it's just a remastered D:OS? Actually, it looks like it's just a remastered D:OS2. But it shouldn't.

BioWare said that Dragon Age: Origins was the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - their own take on the BG style made without a D&D license. Was it just a remastered Baldur's Gate? Of course not. But it did contain RTwP combat and its combat had improved massively over Baldur's Gate's combat. DA:O is a contender for having the most fun combat system in PCRPG history - and its combat is RTwP.

Larian don't have to please everyone. They have to make a game for the series they have chosen to make a game for - and Baldur's Gate is THE father of the RTwP genre and is THE game that should present the next evolution for the RTwP genre. What Larian are doing by adding TB combat and not RTwP to a supposed "BG3" is disgraceful.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
RTwP had nearly no upgrade since 2000... Of course it's nearly impossible to quote about a "good" RTwP game except Baldur's Gate 1 and 2.

If you think that, then I have to suspect that you haven't played any RTwP games since 2000. Because RTwP has evolved many times over since 2000. Give Dragon Age: Origins a try. It has wonderful RTwP combat that's a lot more fun than either D:OS or D:OS2's combat.

Last edited by Delicieuxz; 28/02/20 07:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by Delicieuxz
Give Dragon Age: Origins a try. It has wonderful RTwP combat that's a lot more fun than either D:OS or D:OS2's combat.


Well i think it s a matter of individual tastes.
I like bioware games but no... not for everyone. I prefer DoS 2 gameplay style than DAO one.

For me the "combat engine" turn by turn or rt is not what make the heart of an IP. The Lore, the characters do. For me at least.

So even if i understand that people who like rtwp are sad... i continue to have faith about the good storytelling and immersion that larian had prove they are good to provide.

Maybe this is why we do not agree. You put the BG name before all... i m here to play to an Larian game because their previous games was for me again... the best ot the genre this last years, even if the game was not a BG title it was the same for me. Actually... with players tendancy to idolising their old IP... we ll agreed with the fact than larian had better to let BG die , too risky, and stick up with DoS. Not for the same reason... many old fans are mad about their beloves IP change in some way they dont like. I m worried about my actual favorite rpg game dev company. They dont have the shoulders like bigs studios to deal with a huge bad buzz.

Last edited by The Storyteller; 28/02/20 08:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by The Storyteller
Originally Posted by Delicieuxz
Give Dragon Age: Origins a try. It has wonderful RTwP combat that's a lot more fun than either D:OS or D:OS2's combat.


Well i think it s a matter of individual tastes.
I like bioware games but no... not for everyone. I prefer DoS 2 gameplay style than DAO one.

For me the "combat engine" turn by turn or rt is not what make the heart of an IP. The Lore, the characters do. For me at least.

So even if i understand that people who like rtwp are sad... i continue to have faith about the good storytelling and immersion that larian had prove they are good to provide.

Maybe this is why we do not agree. You put the BG name before all... i m here to play to an Larian game because their previous games was for me again... the best ot the genre this last years, even if the game was not a BG title it was the same for me. Actually... with players tendancy to idolising their old IP... we ll agreed with the fact than larian had better to let BG die , too risky, and stick up with DoS. Not for the same reason... many old fans are mad about their beloves IP change in some way they dony like. I m worried about my actual favorite rpg game dev company. They dont have the shoulders like bigs studios to deal with a huge bad buzz.


Uh no, that's not the treatment you give a well-established IP that boasts millions of fans. The name is supposed to give you an idea of what you can expect. Right now they could have simply called it Divinity: Sword Coast or something in that vein so there would be less negative feedback. It's apparent to me that someone in WoTC management wants to coalesce Divinity and BG players into a single fandom in order to milk them dry. We shall see how that pans out.

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Yeah, DA:O is nearly the only try of a RTwP "all public" game these next 10 years.... (not speaking about oldschool rpg of course).
And the upgrade is not sufficient for actual video game industry. Just look at DA2 and DA3...

Larian could clearly do it. Imagine the video we had yesterday with RTwP... You had an all new type of gameplay with the core gameplay mecanics of Baldur's Gate.
(of course, it probably require modifications/adjustments).

They just create an "Original Sin like". All of us will forget it in the past few years, such as all "wow-like", "skyrim-like", "diablo-like" and so on... They could choose to become legends but they didn't.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 28/02/20 08:30 AM.
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You just say with another words what i just said.
I understand that lot of people are here because of the BG name... but not all.
And yes i think you re right when you say the exact same game with an another name would be better and safer.

Here...
BG's fans are worried about their IP...
Larian fans are worried about the futur of the company they love ( for Divinity saga ) if BG3 is a sell failure. I dont mind too much for BG3 for exemple ( and was sad that divinity fallen heroes was delayed for that )...

Two point of view...

Think its a toxic relationship between Larian and WotC because of fandoms of each side are not "compatible" with the other.
Hope a good end to this... tired of drama around Bethesda games and the "true/false fans" endless discussion.

I dont want the same thing here...

We will see.

Last edited by The Storyteller; 28/02/20 08:37 AM. Reason: Typo
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Originally Posted by The Storyteller
You just say with another words what i just said.
I understand that lot of people are here because of the BG name... but not all.
And yes i think you re right when you say the exact same game with an another name would be better and safer.

Here...
BG's fans are worried about their IP...
Larian fans are worried about the futur of the company they love ( for Divinity saga ) if BG3 is a sell failure. I dont mind too much for BG3 for exemple ( and was sad that divinity fallen heroes was delayed for that )...

Two point of view...

Think its a toxic relationship between Larian and WotC because of fandoms of each side are not "compatible" with the other.
Hope a good end to this... tired of drama around Bethesda games and the "true/false fans" endless discussion.

I dont want the same thing here...

We will see.

I get your point but why should Larian fans (who have a variety of games custom-tailored for them) feel entitled to tell BG fans what BG is supposed to be about and how it should play? I don't presume to tell Divinity fans or fans of any other franchise what direction their favorite series should head in next, that's just plain arrogant and I've played D:OS by the way. Sure, the fan bases overlap to an extent but as feedback for the demo has started pouring in you can tell they're still miles apart.

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I see your point.

The game can change a lot between now and release anyway...
And even if i prefer personnaly turn based combat i will not cry if the game change for a rtwp if the narrative aspects of the game are good... ( and in my case i m not certain about purchasing BG 3 yet... but not because this tb or rtwp... the potential lack of GM mode will be more decisive in my case )

Maybe we can all have satisfaction.
Time will tell.

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Look, I get it.

They have decided to go for a combat system that works for other games, even in the core of D&D rules it works that way, but in my case I don't play any game turn based cause I find it really boring. Everything seems to move very slow and you come in and out from combats thinking that was kind of "another" game inside the actual game (I just talk for personal experience and opinion and I understand not everyone shares).

When it comes to BG I'd have at least expected to have the same rules as the previous games: A choice between RTwP or TB so you can choose and it will clearly make everyone happy (at least on that area).

I think Larian thought about this when they got together for the first time to work on the game. I get that there is a time frame to release the game and they have a lot of work to do still, but things like this should have been considered long ago. If they were, that means they knew it would reach this stage in which people will be disappointed but expected to sell anyways.

I'm a huge fan of BG1, SoA, BG2, ToB, IWD etc etc cause I fell in love with those mechanics and I believe that If they do not want to work on this issues that can make a huge difference for the buyers, sells will be at risks, but again, this is my opinion.


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Whoever is saying TB is superior to RTwP is just trying to pass their opinion as an objective truth. All the "bad" RTwP games listed had good combat, and only times I would say there were issues was when they tried to move closer to TB. Also I'm fairly certain that if Larian wanted they could make really solid RTwP experience. But I guess in their eyes it's a risk, and they'd rather reinforce the impression that they became one trick studio. Can they really not make a non TB game that's good?

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I'm happy they went with turn-based, personally. I don't hate RTwP - I have very fond memories of the original games and I also loved the Pillars of Eternity games(especially Deadfire). I feel for the RTwP fans, but I personally wanted a D&D 5e game more than a hard sequel to Baldur's Gate.

They could have avoid all this disappointment by calling it something else(and setting it somewhere else in the Realms!), but I imagine Wizards made the decision for marketing reasons.

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Larian and Wizards of the Coast has made a wise decision to ditch RTwP .
Baldur's Gate 3 will be the best in the series groovy

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Turn based is really the best option, the game is based on D&D which is a turn based system for crying out loud.

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Could someone please lock this thread?

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TLDR - RTWP is you giving commands (movement AND actions) to your characters and the AI determining how well it is carried out whereas Turn based has you EXECUTING movements and actions INSTANTLY where you have FULL control without a poorly designed AI (pathing) interfering with your planned actions and also increases party diversity because GOOD players of RTWP figured out decades ago that having a primarily ranged party with maybe 2 melee tanks to bottleneck the enemy is the most efficient way to play every combat scenario.....in EVERY RTWP game....cause AI pathing sucks in EVERY RTWP game. And Auto-pause does NOT fix this, only furiously pausing multiple times a second to make sure move commands (or attack commands relying on movement/proximity) arent deviated from for unforeseen reasons such as body blocking a pathing scenario, etc for a second or 2.

So, my input into this is simple: Real time w/ pause (even auto pause to simulate turn based) is just too restrictive and irritating at times due to poor AI. Things such as pathing can screw up your commands to the AI leading to wasted time which translates into either lost damage, lost efficiency, or increased damage taken, or loss of an advantageous position but not because of anything you did, because of poor AI. The prime example with Real Time w/ Pause (abbreviated to RTWP) problems is when it comes to bottle-necked doorways or tight corridors where you give a command but because 1 of your characters or an enemy is temporarily in the way, the AI party starts walking in weird/different directions as the AI attempts to figure out how to path through.

Attacks likewise that require AI pathing can get messed up sometimes and in EVERY RTWP game the ideal (overly simplistic) party is a group of ranged damage dealers (as many as possible) with only the bare minimum tanks to bottleneck the enemy - usually 2 suffices. This is NOT interesting or intelligent enough to be engaging anymore or after you've played your 10th RTWP game with the same AI pathing issues.

It's 1 thing of your plan fails because of your chosen actions, its entirely another if the AI doesnt execute your actions as you input them because it just straight up sucks, leading to your plan failing. i'd rather have that control in my hands and do it myself. It also leads to more viability in more melee-heavy parties as the pathing issues dont force you to go primarily ranged to take advantage of the poor AI the enemies also have. Last game i played that had RTWP was Pillars of Eternity 2 and it STILL had AI pathing issues so the AI tech has not come a long way yet and tbh, after they released the turn based patch early this year - it became a MUCH more enjoyable experience, and less annoying. So from practical experience, turn based is just the preferred combat method unless AI is drastically improved to make the player feel more in control rather than the AI putzing around.

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Anyway those thinking that somes are complaining for nothing don't give a f**** about the name of this game.
It could have been Waterdepp, Sundabar, The Underdark or anything else, they don't care but it's finally the only problem
(if you forget that we'll never have THE BG3 we waited for about 20 years).

No matter if you are happy or not to see a new TB in the universe of the forgotten realms with the D&D rules...
You can love Larian's games or not, love TB or not, love what you saw yesterday or not... this changes nothing...
This game is not a BG game... Exept for his name, the universe and the rules.
Absolutely nothing in the basic gameplay elements we saw yesterday looks like it...

Check how TB has evolved since 1997. Then compare to RTwP...
And please don't talk about Pathfinder or PoE... I love these game but they cannot expect the sucess Larian could pretend to.. or DA:O or Mass Effect that choose "wisely" to completely change the gameplay of these licence... leading them nearly to their dead...

Do:S is probably going to become a legend of video games in 10 years or more and this is what Larian should have done with a Baldur's Gate 3, rebuild (nearly dead) game mecanics and continue to redifine what is video games for the past few years.
This game could have be a part of the legend of Baldur's Gate. Even if it's a good game, it's not going to be more than a forgetable "Divinity : Original Sin like".

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