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Originally Posted by Adelbern
I've never played the previous Baldur Gate games but the game play from this new one seems amazing. To be honest, I wouldn't be interested if it was RTwP as I find it very messy to look at. I also only remember playing 2 RTwP games and never found that type of game play fun. In my opinion, it always felt more like builds were the most important aspect and you pause to micro manage as you react to things. It just doesn't feel like satisfying combat.

Turn based games feel more engaging and strategic to me so while it sucks for the original franchise fans, I hope they don't change from it.


I's strange, because you nearly don't have the concept of "build" in the old games smile
This is a really modern concept due to MMORPG I think, where you can do many many things with your characters (may skills, choices, level up,...)

Of course if you played Dragon Age Inquisition, you're in a total "solo" mmorpg grin

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Adelbern
I've never played the previous Baldur Gate games but the game play from this new one seems amazing. To be honest, I wouldn't be interested if it was RTwP as I find it very messy to look at. I also only remember playing 2 RTwP games and never found that type of game play fun. In my opinion, it always felt more like builds were the most important aspect and you pause to micro manage as you react to things. It just doesn't feel like satisfying combat.

Turn based games feel more engaging and strategic to me so while it sucks for the original franchise fans, I hope they don't change from it.


I's strange, because you nearly don't have the concept of "build" in the old games smile
This is a really modern concept due to MMORPG I think, where you can do many many things with your characters (may skills, choices, level up,...)

Of course if you played Dragon Age Inquisition, you're in a total "solo" mmorpg grin

You could replace Build with Characte Class and he wouldn't be wrong.

In the original BG games your party "composition", the classes you chose were important to how you wanted fights to go. Stick 2 Tanks up front, 1 healer and a mixture of Ranged and Magic and poooooof.

Taking a Ranger wasn't as useful as taking a Paladin,so there was very much a meta in how to make combat easier. With BG games being very combat heavy, you could ignore this approach I am sure many here did on various playthroughs, but it doesn't change the fact that there was a build, if more party based than character builds.

I always wanted more in game Class/Rave options, cool reasons for playing Halfling vs Human, Rogue vs Ranger, even if it was just how the world interacted with me. Mobs and RTwP combat was there for quick farming XP so that I was strong enough for the cool stuff. If there is a way to evel up without always fighting, does my focus on what mechanics are used shift? Does it matter as much?

See that's the thing, Baldur's Gate IS different things for different people. For some it is Game Mechanics over story, for others the opposite. Why take a Thief when I can take another fighter who with enough Strenght can bash locks?

i would rather have more choice and sacrifice the combat mechanic to achieve it. Others wouldn't, both arguments are just as valid as each other hehe

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Adelbern
I've never played the previous Baldur Gate games but the game play from this new one seems amazing. To be honest, I wouldn't be interested if it was RTwP as I find it very messy to look at. I also only remember playing 2 RTwP games and never found that type of game play fun. In my opinion, it always felt more like builds were the most important aspect and you pause to micro manage as you react to things. It just doesn't feel like satisfying combat.

Turn based games feel more engaging and strategic to me so while it sucks for the original franchise fans, I hope they don't change from it.


I's strange, because you nearly don't have the concept of "build" in the old games smile
This is a really modern concept due to MMORPG I think, where you can do many many things with your characters (may skills, choices, level up,...)

Of course if you played Dragon Age Inquisition, you're in a total "solo" mmorpg grin

You could replace Build with Characte Class and he wouldn't be wrong.

In the original BG games your party "composition", the classes you chose were important to how you wanted fights to go. Stick 2 Tanks up front, 1 healer and a mixture of Ranged and Magic and poooooof.

Taking a Ranger wasn't as useful as taking a Paladin,so there was very much a meta in how to make combat easier. With BG games being very combat heavy, you could ignore this approach I am sure many here did on various playthroughs, but it doesn't change the fact that there was a build, if more party based than character builds.

I always wanted more in game Class/Rave options, cool reasons for playing Halfling vs Human, Rogue vs Ranger, even if it was just how the world interacted with me. Mobs and RTwP combat was there for quick farming XP so that I was strong enough for the cool stuff. If there is a way to evel up without always fighting, does my focus on what mechanics are used shift? Does it matter as much?

See that's the thing, Baldur's Gate IS different things for different people. For some it is Game Mechanics over story, for others the opposite. Why take a Thief when I can take another fighter who with enough Strenght can bash locks?

i would rather have more choice and sacrifice the combat mechanic to achieve it. Others wouldn't, both arguments are just as valid as each other hehe


You're probably right, and certainly for the last half of the message but what's the link between "builds" and RTwP ? (because this is his feelings).

You play the same in recent TB RPG, don't you ?

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
[quote=Riandor][quote=Maximuuus][quote=Adelbern]

You're probably right, and certainly for the last half of the message but what's the link between "builds" and RTwP ? (because this is his feelings).

You play the same in recent TB RPG, don't you ?


Yeah I missed a sentence or two that was in my head but didn't make it into my post lol.

One of the main reasons for Tanks up front and centre was not just because of protecting the ranged guys, but to reduce the fiddliness of RTwP. Tanks are predominantly auto hitters. Set to swing and forget until injured or until a specific attack is available (in games with cool downs), or until you need to select a different target.

The more auto hitters you have, the less you pause, the fewer the more you pause, at least in my experience. Thus party compostion determined how pausing went, at least so my argument.

Other than for quick slaying trash mobs (which it sounds Larian have considered how to handle from what I have been reading), RTwP is about the feeling it evokes. I firmly believe that is why so many are passionate about it, because it is in no way a better system, it is however a more evocative one because it feels like a fight. It's simulated chaos. That's fine as long as you aren't pausing or auto-pausing every 2 seconds, because it feels like a battle, whereby TB can be overly measured and consdered, and less evocative of a battle and more of a cunning plan well executed.

In TB that has been presented here, I saw much more use for different characters than in the original games, so that's a plus. Doesn't mean I want bland combat, so Larian will have to work hard at filling that void left behind, the urgency, the thrill. If they manage, I won't miss RTwP, if they don't, then I would hope there was less focus on constant combat.

Make sense?




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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
[quote=Riandor][quote=Maximuuus][quote=Adelbern]

You're probably right, and certainly for the last half of the message but what's the link between "builds" and RTwP ? (because this is his feelings).

You play the same in recent TB RPG, don't you ?


Yeah I missed a sentence or two that was in my head but didn't make it into my post lol.

One of the main reasons for Tanks up front and centre was not just because of protecting the ranged guys, but to reduce the fiddliness of RTwP. Tanks are predominantly auto hitters. Set to swing and forget until injured or until a specific attack is available (n games with cool downs), or until you need to select a different target.

The more auto hitters you have, the less you pause, the fewer the more you pause, at least in my experience. Thus party compostion determined how pausing went, at least so my argument.

Other than for quick slaying trash mobs (which it sounds Larian have considered how to handle by what I have been reading), RTwP is about the feeling it evokes. I firmly believe that is why so many are passionate about it, because it is in no way a better system, it is however a more evocativ one because it feels like a fight. It's simulated chaos. That's fine as long as yu aren't pausing or auto-pausing every 2 seconds, because it feels like a battle, whereby TB can be overly measured and consdered, and less evocative of a battle and more ofa cunning plan well executed.

In TB that has been presented here, I saw much more use for different characters than in the original games, so that's a plus. Doesn't mean I want bland combat, so Larian will have to work hard at filling that void left behind, the urgency, the thrill. If they manage, I won't miss RTwP, if they don't, then I would hope there was less focus on constant combat.

Make sense?



Totally, I'll consider this is what the previous meant smile
I never said old RTwP is perfect but I think it could change such as TB did.

Anyway, it seems impossible to me to mix "chaos of combats" and TB. I really like TB games such as Wasteland 2, Xcom, DoS,... But it's really not "real".
Turn based look like a game. BG is a story and RTwP is a part of it. A story has to look "real" for it to be interessting.

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XCOMs made turn-based combat cool again. Look at amount of Turn-Based games being released since then and bought, and compare it to RT. It is a simply more savy more to appeal to Divinity fans, then BG fans - it is already audience attached to Larian, and seems to have overall wider appeal sales wise. As to polls made on a forum such as this - I imagine a big chunk of people are vocal about BG3 because they care about BG IP - it will not be representetive of a wider public.

There are valid points to be made for TB combat, whenever it is to your personal tastes or not. Using roll based Turn-Based system and making it real time (as did BG1&2) does create a host of problems.

What's more, BG1&2 were singleplayer games with optional coop, while Larian games are multiplayer games first. Using TB system is a handy solution to many struggles RTwP game had, and would have.

That's not to say, that RTwP shouldn't be made - but games like Pillars or Pathfinder are archaic, and have limited appeal. I am a fan, but I know how to deal with the system. What RTwP needs is a dev who believes in the system (which curiously isn't Obsidian, as Josh S. expressed his preference of TB over RTwP) and who will innovate on the idea and bring it to the XXth century. Larian doing RTwP because fans want it, but they don't believe in it, is not a good idea.

Something I really liked about BG3 demo, is how punchy the combat feels. D:OSs (especially 2nd one) could feel grindy, with inflated health pools. They also visually communicate rolls really well (loved the critical hit dice thing) - I think this kind of presentation is really helpful. There a thick barrier to fight through when playing BG or Pathfinder or BG - the game is happening in a small text box in the corner, and not actually on the battlefield you are staring at. I believe that amount of players who really engage with the systems in those games is fairly small.

BG3 moves those things into spotlight - smart and beneficial move.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
XCOMs made turn-based combat cool again. Look at amount of Turn-Based games being released since then and bought, and compare it to RT. It is a simply more savy more to appeal to Divinity fans, then BG fans - it is already audience attached to Larian, and seems to have overall wider appeal sales wise. As to polls made on a forum such as this - I imagine a big chunk of people are vocal about BG3 because they care about BG IP - it will not be representetive of a wider public.

There are valid points to be made for TB combat, whenever it is to your personal tastes or not. Using roll based Turn-Based system and making it real time (as did BG1&2) does create a host of problems.

What's more, BG1&2 were singleplayer games with optional coop, while Larian games are multiplayer games first. Using TB system is a handy solution to many struggles RTwP game had, and would have.

That's not to say, that RTwP shouldn't be made - but games like Pillars or Pathfinder are archaic, and have limited appeal. I am a fan, but I know how to deal with the system. What RTwP needs is a dev who believes in the system (which curiously isn't Obsidian, as Josh S. expressed his preference of TB over RTwP) and who will innovate on the idea and bring it to the XXth century. Larian doing RTwP because fans want it, but they don't believe in it, is not a good idea.

Something I really liked about BG3 demo, is how punchy the combat feels. D:OSs (especially 2nd one) could feel grindy, with inflated health pools. They also visually communicate rolls really well (loved the critical hit dice thing) - I think this kind of presentation is really helpful. There a thick barrier to fight through when playing BG or Pathfinder or BG - the game is happening in a small text box in the corner, and not actually on the battlefield you are staring at. I believe that amount of players who really engage with the systems in those games is fairly small.

BG3 moves those things into spotlight - smart and beneficial move.


Firaxis did make TB palatable for me. So I definitely agree that XCOM did the magic.

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XCOM is great, BUT...

XCOM is very much about sending in a strike team into an area to deal with a specific situation. You choose a squad (party) and look to use the terrain to your benefit against unknown odds. In and out. If I see a Xeno rushing my sniper position, do I panic, does the character panic, do I try and move him or her away, do I risk a different action from another squad member to save them? Oooh, it's tense, but also because death means my levelled up crew are no longer there, so I have to balance rookies vs elite squadies and I have to balance stealth, slow approach vs storming in guns blazing. But that is because I am going into every mission with the same principle. Gun down Xenos and extract, so TB tactical works for the gameplay and the setting.

Baldur's Gate is a party, yes, can now use terrain, good... but it's much more dynamic. These are my peeps that will for the most part, be with me through the story. We wander into situations that at first glance might not be danger, but turns into it and if my party wipes, it's game over not just mission over! I don't want a long dialogue to turn into a long and hopeless TB fight that I have to reload. Here I have to say the advantage of the messy RTwP shines through, because if I die quickly, reloading isn't so bad I rethink my opening decisions, but yeah I am at the mercy of the gods of chaos. :hihi:

I'm ok with TB here in BG3 as I have said, but that doesn't mean I don't have reservations or that I don't understand where the love for RTwP comes from, I just don't cling to it as a defining mechanism for Baldur's Gate, others do...

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Originally Posted by Wormerine

Larian doing RTwP because fans want it, but they don't believe in it, is not a good idea.

Exactly! Not listening to fans is the hallmark of every successful company. When 46.4% of your customers ask for apples, you sell them oranges because that is part of your comfort zone and technically speaking, they are a minority compared to the 53.6% who want the latter.

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You wouldn't want them to implement a hatchet job either.
There is an inherent risk that trying to botch RTwP into a game designed from the ground up to be TB in order to try and satisfy the other "half" could be a greater risk, because if its great TB, you might reluctantly play it and love it.

If it has sub par RTwP, you might hate it and not bother trying it in any other mode.

I'm no expert here but does anyone even think it is possible to add RTwP onto this game as it stands? Would you be happy to lose features to accomodate it (Verticality for example, or Push, etc...)?

I just can't see it. I think it's too far along to see any change in this regard prior to release. Maybe in the future, a Mod perhaps? But I dunno. I'm not saying it#s a pointless debate, it isn't, I just cannot see it changing at this juncture.

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There is an inherent risk to just about any action, man. They could have just opened a casino and designed Baldur's Gate slot machines instead. I am not accusing you of anything, but Larian's propaganda department seems to doing a swell job convincing everyone they are poor indie devs who can't step out of their comfort zone without ruining everything. It's about saving costs and extracting money from you, the consumer. Definitely not about innovation as far as I can tell.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Adelbern
I've never played the previous Baldur Gate games but the game play from this new one seems amazing. To be honest, I wouldn't be interested if it was RTwP as I find it very messy to look at. I also only remember playing 2 RTwP games and never found that type of game play fun. In my opinion, it always felt more like builds were the most important aspect and you pause to micro manage as you react to things. It just doesn't feel like satisfying combat.

Turn based games feel more engaging and strategic to me so while it sucks for the original franchise fans, I hope they don't change from it.


I's strange, because you nearly don't have the concept of "build" in the old games smile
This is a really modern concept due to MMORPG I think, where you can do many many things with your characters (may skills, choices, level up,...)

Of course if you played Dragon Age Inquisition, you're in a total "solo" mmorpg grin

You could replace Build with Characte Class and he wouldn't be wrong.

In the original BG games your party "composition", the classes you chose were important to how you wanted fights to go. Stick 2 Tanks up front, 1 healer and a mixture of Ranged and Magic and poooooof.

Taking a Ranger wasn't as useful as taking a Paladin,so there was very much a meta in how to make combat easier. With BG games being very combat heavy, you could ignore this approach I am sure many here did on various playthroughs, but it doesn't change the fact that there was a build, if more party based than character builds.

I always wanted more in game Class/Rave options, cool reasons for playing Halfling vs Human, Rogue vs Ranger, even if it was just how the world interacted with me. Mobs and RTwP combat was there for quick farming XP so that I was strong enough for the cool stuff. If there is a way to evel up without always fighting, does my focus on what mechanics are used shift? Does it matter as much?

See that's the thing, Baldur's Gate IS different things for different people. For some it is Game Mechanics over story, for others the opposite. Why take a Thief when I can take another fighter who with enough Strenght can bash locks?

i would rather have more choice and sacrifice the combat mechanic to achieve it. Others wouldn't, both arguments are just as valid as each other hehe

I agree, but it's more than that even, because how one interprets things also matters. For me, it is precisely TB games in which the differences among characters does not matter. It is in a TB game that I would be motivated to take a bunch of fighter/tanks and try to bull-rush my way through what is a distasteful experience anyway. And in fact, playing D:OS, that exactly what I did. And, my incenstive in that game was to create four characters who were exactly the same and had exactly the same abilities and spells because that's what worked best for me. Whereas in a RTwP game is where I would value diversity in my party members.

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It doesn't matter though. At the very least, Larian is on track to make video game history as one of the few companies to turn a series that had mainstream appeal at the turn of the century into a niche for D&D purists.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
You wouldn't want them to implement a hatchet job either.
There is an inherent risk that trying to botch RTwP into a game designed from the ground up to be TB in order to try and satisfy the other "half" could be a greater risk, because if its great TB, you might reluctantly play it and love it.

If it has sub par RTwP, you might hate it and not bother trying it in any other mode.

I'm no expert here but does anyone even think it is possible to add RTwP onto this game as it stands? Would you be happy to lose features to accomodate it (Verticality for example, or Push, etc...)?

I just can't see it. I think it's too far along to see any change in this regard prior to release. Maybe in the future, a Mod perhaps? But I dunno. I'm not saying it#s a pointless debate, it isn't, I just cannot see it changing at this juncture.


Why would you loose verticality or push with RT ?
What I think is that everything we saw until there is able to work in RTwP... But I'm not expert neither...

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Originally Posted by korotama
It doesn't matter though. At the very least, Larian is on track to make video game history as one of the few companies to turn a series that had mainstream appeal at the turn of the century into a niche for D&D purists.

That’s a bit hyperbole...
More than a bit. Yes I’m sure there is a good (or in this case bad) number of big enthusiasts who believe its RTwP or bust, but you cannot know how high that number is just as much as I can’t. I have countless hours sunk into it, its my number 1 game of all time (bg2), but I will buy bg3. I’m sure I won’t be alone.

So let’s refrain from absurd blanket statements, it helps no one, least of healthy discussion.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Riandor
You wouldn't want them to implement a hatchet job either.
There is an inherent risk that trying to botch RTwP into a game designed from the ground up to be TB in order to try and satisfy the other "half" could be a greater risk, because if its great TB, you might reluctantly play it and love it.

If it has sub par RTwP, you might hate it and not bother trying it in any other mode.

I'm no expert here but does anyone even think it is possible to add RTwP onto this game as it stands? Would you be happy to lose features to accomodate it (Verticality for example, or Push, etc...)?

I just can't see it. I think it's too far along to see any change in this regard prior to release. Maybe in the future, a Mod perhaps? But I dunno. I'm not saying it#s a pointless debate, it isn't, I just cannot see it changing at this juncture.


Why would you loose verticality or push with RT ?
What I think is that everything we saw until there is able to work in RTwP... But I'm not expert neither...


I’m not sure whether it’s feasible to send someone onto a different level without being utterly destroyed before you were in position. You probably just would never take the risk and the default I believe would be to steam roller opponents instead of look for different strategies. I could be wrong, just thinking out loud.

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Originally Posted by korotama
Larian's propaganda department seems to doing a swell job convincing everyone they are poor indie devs who can't step out of their comfort zone without ruining everything. It's about saving costs and extracting money from you, the consumer. Definitely not about innovation as far as I can tell.


There is no incentive for them to try RTwP. If they do, one half of the crowd will be happy, the other half wont. They can't win. More than that, their current system has had great success, so why roll the dice on such a huge project and see if they can replicate that success with a new system? They can only lose. In addition, it will take a lot of time and money away from other elements that could have been fleshed out. It has nothing to do with their inability to be innovative. They already were innovative and it was a huge success. Now is the time to build on it, not scrap it.

Had BioWare made BG3 in 2001 or so, I'm sure you would have neither expected nor wanted them to step out of their comfort zone and use TB.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by korotama
Larian's propaganda department seems to doing a swell job convincing everyone they are poor indie devs who can't step out of their comfort zone without ruining everything. It's about saving costs and extracting money from you, the consumer. Definitely not about innovation as far as I can tell.


There is no incentive for them to try RTwP. If they do, one half of the crowd will be happy, the other half wont. They can't win. More than that, their current system has had great success, so why roll the dice on such a huge project and see if they can replicate that success with a new system? They can only lose. In addition, it will take a lot of time and money away from other elements that could have been fleshed out. It has nothing to do with their inability to be innovative. They already were innovative and it was a huge success. Now is the time to build on it, not scrap it.

Had BioWare made BG3 in 2001 or so, I'm sure you would have neither expected nor wanted them to step out of their comfort zone and use TB.

Well they could win, by implementing both very well... that’s just not realistic at this juncture, but who knows about post release? One shouldn’t want to alienate any side if possible, I just hope that once the graphical changes and polish and story have been added and shown, people won’t remain focused on this one thing. For now it’s the biggest thing we have seen and the biggest disparity, so people will be "too passionate".


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I have both Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2, I loved both of these games.
I think RTwP can get a bit messy, I prefer turn based combat much more than RTwP, it is more tactical and looks more fluid than spamming spacebar every second.
Also I am a big fan of Xcom, so turn based is definitely a better option to me, especially faction turn based combat.

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