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Originally Posted by Archaven
i genuinely never heard or came across complains about RTwP more than a decade ago about Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 at all. praises of how good of it is everywhere.. and now after DOS2 became a success.. out ouf sudden every where scream BG suxs because it's RTwP. anything else doesn't matter because it's RTwP. anything RTwP and it's not D&D.

Yes very much this. The problem really is not RTwP v. TB or BG3. The problem is that in recent years (hasn't always been this way) TB fans have become purists, some even fanatics, where it is not just that they prefer TB but that they insist and demand that every single RPG made be TB and that RTwP fans should not get any games of their preference. It is a form of "TB superiority." Whereas a RTwP fan will still be open to playing a TB RPG, the modern-day TB fans will not only refuse to play a RTwP game but will actively boycott and wage a war against any RPG that is RTwP (TB fan reactions toward the PoE and Pathfinder games being excellent examples). And of course once this keeps happening again and again for some years, it is inevitable that the RTwP fanbase will eventually retaliate in kind.

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Originally Posted by H0RSE
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Personally I don't like real time strategy for example. So I never play Age of Empires. But I don't go on their forums to complain their next game should be turn based.


This is a false equivalency. The issue is that something was a certain way and now it isn't and people want it the way it was before. The issue is not things are a certain way and people are saying it should be different, which is what your AOE example would be. That's what the people who welcome turn-based combat would do, not the people against it.

The current issue with BG3, would be like when XCOM got a new game back in 2012, but it used real-time combat instead of turn-based. People would be rightfully upset, as they are with BG3 scrapping rtwp combat.

Which is understandable to a degree. It's the same way people felt about Fallout Tactics or Fallout 3.

My argument would be that the core of the IP can still be captured regardless of gameplay (so long as it's still an RPG with the true lore), but I can certainly understand gameplay preferences or hopes for the game to play similar to past iterations.

I think ultimately the decision for TB was rather simple: Turn-based is far more accessible to a much larger population of gamers (see Pokémon), it's something the company is experienced with, it's far easier to balance for and it makes more sense with some of the mechanics they're trying out.

For transparency sake, I'm happy with the decision because I have a very difficult time enjoying RTwP. It's one of several things stopping me from truly enjoying PoE. I can play it, sure, and I enjoy the rest of the game, but combat is always a turn-off that way. I do hope that those who prefer RTwP are able to enjoy the game for what it is and (if it's a true BG game) even find it to be a great entry like New Vegas was to Fallout despite using Bethesda's assets/engine.

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According to Larian connoisseurs on here they have experience with real-time combat as well which apparently has been a feature of some of their previous games. I've only played Divinity: Original Sin so I didn't have a clue. Don't mean to pick on you though I can't help but laugh out loud when you mention Pokémon, I actually wouldn't be surprised if Larian, WoTC, Hasbro etc. were marketing this game towards people whose preferred games aren't even available on PC. By the way, how do you measure this accessibility thing? Is it sales per game, franchise sales totals or total number of players?

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Originally Posted by korotama
According to Larian connoisseurs on here they have experience with real-time combat as well which apparently has been a feature of some of their previous games. I've only played Divinity: Original Sin so I didn't have a clue. Don't mean to pick on you though I can't help but laugh out loud when you mention Pokémon, I actually wouldn't be surprised if Larian, WoTC, Hasbro etc. were marketing this game towards people whose preferred games aren't even available on PC. By the way, how do you measure this accessibility thing? Is it sales per game, franchise sales totals or total number of players?

It's something you could quantify, but I'm simply making a more generalized statement. Turn-based is slower, gives the player more time to plan out moves and is just easier in general, especially on higher difficulties. Meanwhile, unless you've got a lot of experience or put a chunk of time into RTwP, you'll never truly get the true feel of it. One might simply toss it on a lower difficulty and roll through, or fumble with pausing/planning.

Like I said, more of a generalized statement, but if you were to take a ton of CoD gamers who have never played an isometric game at all and were to have them play a turn-based or a RTwP game, which do you feel they'd have an easier time playing? Not which they would enjoy more and spend more time with, but which would have the easier learning curve or be able to master quicker?

Edit: As to your first statement, I was actually unaware myself. I didn't even play DoS1. I'm not actually a "Larian fan" like a lot of forum members here, but I played DoS2 since it was on sale on Steam (along with POE) and was looking for a decent RPG. When I heard they were making a BG3 game I jumped on here to follow it.

I probably know less about Larian than most forum members here, but recent experience is probably more valuable than "They made these other game types years ago" since those developers probably don't even work with Larian anymore lol

Last edited by Blade238; 08/03/20 04:07 PM.
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That's a tough one because I've played first person shooters too so I can't put myself in their shoes.

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Originally Posted by korotama
That's a tough one because I've played first person shooters too so I can't put myself in their shoes.

I'll bring it back to the Pokémon statement again as well (not that I even care for the franchise). You can have a child in Kindergarten or a retired older person who never played a video game before take up Pokémon and turn-based combat in general and succeed without much investment. It requires no skill, dexterity, experience or reflexes to play.

I play games from pretty much any genre and had played RTS games before, but even I had difficulties with RTwP initially and I don't think it's something I'll ever master or be proficient with since I don't play frequently enough.

Edit: Again I don't really have a horse in this race, since I don't usually care what the gameplay type is. I just want a good game in general and from what I've seen I personally think it'd be easier/less time consuming or resource intensive to make the game turn-based.

Last edited by Blade238; 08/03/20 04:14 PM.
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Nah, difficulty is inherent to both combat modes, it's just a matter of game design especially when you can pause the game whenever you want. I would argue instead that Dark Souls is more in the vein of what you meant as far as single player stuff since there is no way to pause combat unless you quit the game in progress.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Archaven
i genuinely never heard or came across complains about RTwP more than a decade ago about Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 at all. praises of how good of it is everywhere.. and now after DOS2 became a success.. out ouf sudden every where scream BG suxs because it's RTwP. anything else doesn't matter because it's RTwP. anything RTwP and it's not D&D.

Yes very much this. The problem really is not RTwP v. TB or BG3. The problem is that in recent years (hasn't always been this way) TB fans have become purists, some even fanatics, where it is not just that they prefer TB but that they insist and demand that every single RPG made be TB and that RTwP fans should not get any games of their preference. It is a form of "TB superiority." Whereas a RTwP fan will still be open to playing a TB RPG, the modern-day TB fans will not only refuse to play a RTwP game but will actively boycott and wage a war against any RPG that is RTwP (TB fan reactions toward the PoE and Pathfinder games being excellent examples). And of course once this keeps happening again and again for some years, it is inevitable that the RTwP fanbase will eventually retaliate in kind.


Generalizations, especially about a large group of people, are usually just wrong (to say the least). Speaking for myself, as one who prefers TB, I played a few RTwP RPGs over the past twenty years, but mostly just RT RPGs (like MMOs and Skyrim) and never once had a thought about TB. TB just seemed to drop from existence. I'm not saying they didn't exist; I just didn't know about them (again, mostly because with EQ and Asheron's Call, I moved away isometric type RPGs).

After playing DOS2, I was reminded of what I had been missing. It took me a year after DOS2 was released to play it. I saw it lauded in every review, but I just couldn't return to 90s gaming (as I saw it). But when I read a review that said DOS2 was as close to the D&D table top experience any game had ever been able to deliver, I decided to give a try. It did not disappoint.

I liked DOA (though I played it without any companions), and I liked ME1 & 2, so I can't say I hate RTwP. But after playing DOS2 and then trying DAI, I don't know how I ever did it. I hated DAI. TB for me is so much better than RTwP. I went from TB to RTwP when going from old school games like Pool of Radiance to BG1, probably because it was new and it was the D&D game that was given to us. But having now had a good sample of both, TB is where it's at for me.

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DOS1&2 are a very-very great RPGs, despite their combat system, not necessary because of it.
I think they did the TB in the best possible way, I have ever seen, but if it was real time with pause,
with a bit lower movement speed, than Baldurs Gate, it would be just as good as it is.

I like TB, but:

If the battle is too hard, I hate to redo it when I lose, because it is, so slow...
I spent at some of the hardest battles like 2-3 hours totally to complete them, including the failed tries and the tries I did at lower level.

If the battle is too easy, I do not enjoy it as much as RTwP, because it is also slow, even if I kill them in 2-3 turns.
I miss the feeling, that I just quickly destroy the goblin horde or just kill the orcs with a death spell.

Of course I am still looking forward to BG3. smile

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Originally Posted by Laith
Wotc approached larian to make this, NOT the other way around you all seem to forget that major detail.


Well, that´s technically not correct because Swen asked them first as he said in this interview


Originally Posted by Laith
This is really about ppl who dislike larian. why else join the forum board if you dont like divinity?


People joined this forum in the last days because of the anounncement of Baldur´s Gate 3 and not a new Divinity game, right? Not everyone in this forum must wave the Divinity flag. People who only registered into the forum because of Baldur's Gate III basically don't have anything against Divinity or Larian Studios.


Originally Posted by Laith
most DA fans dont like inquisition but they liked the gameplay i gues that means theyre not real fans because the gameplay changed.


Are you able to quantify the "most DA fans"?


Originally Posted by Laith
btw i never said you couldnt join nor am i being an authoritarian i merely stated its obvious why newly joined members from 3-6 days ago are only here vent and troll and enjoy trying to smash on larian because theyre mad santa didnt deliver.


This is what passionate discussions look like from different people with different opinions. That´s what everyone is doing in this forum, no matter what opinion he have (if you like it or not). Everyone is looking forward for the game, that´s the reason why we are in this forum. Everyone wants to express their own personal interests.




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honestly imo nothing beats RT games. RT games with no pause and no turns. Quite frankly i feel as shit as DAI is it got RT without pause correct. If This was Adnd i wouldnt pauses or turns. but theres nothing anyone can do about whats set in stone. Pausing a game every .5 sec takes 0 skill and has never felt rewarding. turn based is only good when the AI is flawless. But NOTHING beats RT without pause(Wc3, starcraft) and flawless AI, id love to see this in this genre. Why? because its a videogame which is best without pauses and without turns. for instance Elons adaptation to dota is an excellent example. I made a mod to a private rpg project using dice rolls and better AI than what gaming offers us today, and honestly i think that most companies in the industry cheat us when playing these games because hard mode dont make ai smarter but just do more damage and have more health. PoE, Dos1-2, Pathfinder i found lacking even on the highest difficulties. using both rtwp and tb it was just shite. But to be fair this is wizards game and most ppl that rpg cant handle having to think against adapting AI whether you're rpg hardcore or not.

We have to be honest these games are not even challenging which is my personal main concern. Dos made my brain work a bit because it actually has a interactive enviornment. but solo no LW plays still was just a math game once i master tactical advantage and personal strategies. Rtwp are even easier because they're just flat planes. so both in my opinion are rather shite without good AI but being a TT player aswell i dont mind if this is wotc decision and we cant change. so being enraged over just means ppl need to find a new hobby. i mean some of you have to at least have a gf or a dog or something. the games already made and this board has just turned into a venting page not anything constructive. be passionate, fine but realize its done already no reason to stress yourself over whats done in stone or trying to quote irrelevant things from the past when its simply not the currency of the realm. hell most ppl in this thread know next to nothing about dnd or that baldurs gate is in faerun. they cant even tell you anything about avernus. even the fat neckbeards know next to nothing. and most the ppl in this thread arent excited for the game they just hate on it. thats pretty obvious.

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The only reason BIOWARE did rtwp is cause they thought it would make them money and thought it was the only way to implement dnd rules into a game. but as you can see that failed and now only niche community plays rtwp. PoE and all the other titles like it are just clones of bg, and no where near are they success stories. Even so the new Pathfinder righteous had to add tb because its requested; they can have both modes because its a flat plane with no tactics or positioning involved. just more spamfest.

An excerpt of why garbage AI and Rtwp is garbage :

"Pause.
Queue action.
Queue action.
Queue action.
Queue action.
Unpause.
Leave unpaused for a tiny fraction longer than I should have.
AI has now taken it upon itself to do something else after the action I queued up for it, and that action is stupid.
Pause.
Sigh.
Queue action to move to somewhere more sane.
Queue action to cancel idiotic charge.
Queue action to move to somewhere a spell will actually be useful from.
Okay, that last guy, you're fine, you keep doing your thing.
Unpause.
Watch.
HIT PAUSE AT THE EXACT RIGHT MOMENT, DEAR GOD DO NOT LEAVE THEM TO THEIR OWN DEVICES FOR TOO LONG!
Queue action...

I know that I can set up preferences and tactics that the AI will try to use, but even with those things set, it's still like herding cats. I'm not acting as a general, I'm acting as that asshole micromanager you know from work, constantly standing over my characters because I can't trust them to execute any kind of meaningful plan if I don't.

In this sense... Turn based combat lets me actually execute strategies. RTWP makes me fight against whatever level of AI the devs have given my characters, in order to just maybe let them achieve some kind of tactical nouse."

By setting up premade actions is sheer laziness btw and not thoughtful because plans never work perfectly especially with these garbage AI these bg clones try to make.

Wotc knows that the niche rtwp is not the majority, and the majority arent interested in this, hence why every rpg is adding tb even though its pointless to because their game is flat anyway. Their not making a game for a niche community thats from way back when gaming was considered a todd howard past time. their not going to cater to an entitled community that wants the same bg clones over and over again with no enviornmental interaction or thinking involved. Everyone games not just the group from way back when, ppl want this and this game provides ppl being able to get together and play it as was its intention.

If you like RTWHandicap youre just there for the ego trip of being in feeling like being in control of the clock, if your turn based, your into logic and strategy, and yes tactics and strategy BOTH go into that. But the nothing beats REALTIME WITH NO PAUSE on multiple landscape forms including vertically(like sc2). Guess what if your going to be constantly pausing you might aswell play TB cause weve played these games you guys are pausing forever and a day. Lets face it those that love Real time with handicap(RTWH) dont have high enough APM to play a straight up RT game. Its not chaotic you guys just say that to act like youre doing something tactical. i bet most of you havent even played DoS but here we are talking about things you dont even play. When i see some high APM with no handicap(pausing) i dont care to heara about skill and tactics of spam fests. If you dont like a Tabletop simulator which is ADND-5e then dont buy BG3. go play the new pathfinder where you can spam away and apm doesnt matter nor does thinking.

imagine having played against an AI who adapts faster and you cant press a pause button to save yourself everytime something goes wrong. Do you know atleast in DoS you always end up in situations where the ai will screw you over and theres almost nothing but your wit that can save you because its turn based, it can get out of your control. RT and TB both have similar effects, RTWH does not however. but when you have RTWH you can just freeze time like Vecna the Lich God; congrats you get to always be a lich god. tb is more strategic and tactical because you barely have control over the outcome majority of the time and have to actually think to get out of situations. its 20 yrs later the game is not going to look the same even if it didnt look like it looks now you guys would still be mad. When you make a choice in RT and TB you cant switch it up by pausing. if youre really a fan of Baldurs gate then you wouldnt hate, youre really just fans of RTWH(Real time with handicap). You literally start out the game with one of the most powerful spells in RPGs: Freezing time as a basic mechanic. Is this bad? No. It just means you Should go play pathfinder and its clones instead raging over things youre not going to change and Put words in the mouths of ppl who care about the DnD universe as a whole no matter if its RTWH or TB.

They could literally make a Baldurs gate 3 that had RTWH and i would buy that game so fast not caring for a second. If it wasnt for it being in the Dnd universe the story and world would have been no where near as good.

Last edited by Laith; 09/03/20 04:42 AM.
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TB give you more freedom ande easy way to do something that would be complicated in RT, but certainly not more strategy.
Total War is real time with pause for exemple, not TB.

If you compare "true RT" and RTwP/TB I agree. True RT is generaly less strategic because humans eyes and brains can't do so many things at the same time.
You need great reflex here, less in RTwP, none in TB.





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I think most people want RTwP because of the immersion and feeling of beeing "in the fight". Like in Dragon age Origins, you pause, or take turns as much as you like. but it feels more like a fight than TB DO:S ever did.
also TB limits you to like only fight 5 enemies at a time due to the time it would take for big battles. When will we see battles like the start of DA:O again?

TB is OK, just not as immersive and cool!

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One thing that bothers me more than the one of TB/RTwP I'm not so keen on (and there's little point in saying which) and that's the very significant focus on which method of combat will be implemented. Is BG really just about the combat? If that's the case, I'm not sure what to feel about it.


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Of course it is about the combat! Take away combat from any game and your left with something boring.

Even movies are like this. Take away combat from LOTR or Game of thrones..???

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Hmm. Jackson's film adaptation of LotR focussed on all the bits that I skim-read in the books.


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Originally Posted by vometia
One thing that bothers me more than the one of TB/RTwP I'm not so keen on (and there's little point in saying which) and that's the very significant focus on which method of combat will be implemented. Is BG really just about the combat? If that's the case, I'm not sure what to feel about it.


BG3 looks great, of course from first look, it is not how I imagined.

If DOA3, was made by an other company like Obsidian and it had no elemental interaction, no TB combat and no pet-pal skill
DOA players would also be pretty concerned.
Especially if the engine of pillar of eternity, would also had the visual identity very similar to Pillar of Eternity.

If they change combat system, which changes the pace of the whole game, it is important to remind, the players,
that this is not a DOA game, so taking elements from BG series is important.

My other concern with combat, if the characters levels up the combat, becomes slower, because of the extra HP you get.
With pen&paper it was also pretty hard and it took long to kill a wizard with stoneskin.

Last edited by Minsc1122; 09/03/20 09:42 AM.
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I'm just glad it's turn based. Having played all Bg games and pillars of eternity, I think turn based is so much better

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Originally Posted by vometia
One thing that bothers me more than the one of TB/RTwP I'm not so keen on (and there's little point in saying which) and that's the very significant focus on which method of combat will be implemented. Is BG really just about the combat? If that's the case, I'm not sure what to feel about it.


Isn't this a shortcut ?
Of course it's not only, but it's an important part of the gameplay such in every RPGs whatever the way it work.
Combat system is a huge part of the gaming expérience.

You'll probably agree with that.

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