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Originally Posted by Omegaphallic

Well said. I've seen other ways folks do that, like being called an "incel". Some folks are intellectually lazy.


Not to be insulting, but an 'incel' is an actual person. And a dangerous one.
They are people who think they are OWED sex, and that the opposite gender is actively working to deny them sex. They can be dangerous, because this mindset of 'It's not me; it's THEM making sure I never get laid' means many incels get actually physically demanding or violent if they are turned down, because they cannot admit that THEY are the reason they can't get a date or sex.
To them it's always 'everyone else's fault.

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Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Fanboy alert.

Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
As one famous philosopher once said: "Better are the opinions of the thoughtful and critical minority, then the fanboy zero-IQ masses".

Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Well Eguzky, obviously you are are a very unbiased and objective person (just kidding, you are a fanboy).

Stop insulting people or I'll ban you.


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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Disagreement between who ? those waiting for a BG game, those waiting the new larian game, those waiting for the new D&D game.

BG1+2 fans, most or all of whom played and formed opinions of those games before BG3 was announced.
Sorting people into groups based on their opinions doesn't change the fact that there are differing opinions.



Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Fanboy alert.

It was a factually correct statement with no opinion or comment added.
The warning may have been a bit generous.



Originally Posted by Adgaroth
And you can come and repeat the same ''There's no consensus on original bg fans opinions'' mantra,but is nothing more than something you tell yourselves to fell better,there has been a lot of feedback on how BG3 can resemble BG1 and 2

There has been a lot of feedback, some people agree on some things, a lot of people agree on some things, but there is no universal consensus, unless you are defining away people who don't agree with you as not being BG fans.
I need no mantra; it would make my job easier if there was a clear consensus. Regardless, I'm not involved in the game design, so the only thing that effects is how precise the feedback collected is.


Originally Posted by Adgaroth
The only thing you do with your unreasonable fanboyism

When you were neutral, did you not see any 'unreasonable fanboyism' from BG fans?


Originally Posted by Adgaroth
seeing such refusal

What refusal, people disagreeing with opinions on the internet?

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With all this controversy, hopefully BG3 will not take as long as Duke Nukem Forever to be released wink


Thanks for reading...

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Larian needs to realize, that they are dealing with a franchise that has a long history of the franchise, same as Final Fantasy VII, it has nostalgia among its fanbase. The reason for the criticism of mine and many of the fans really is their "imaginative memory" it's very hard to put in words it's a feeling that they want to relive in the sequel. It, of course, hard to step into the shoes, of "old Bioware". People want to feel some nostalgia from the Baldur's gate Franchise like every sequel has to balance between old and new. The problem of this game it needs to establish itself as the sequel of the legendary story and live up to those memories as well as introducing something new as well and it needs to reintroduce itself, to new players that never played the originals. I think that larian has understood that Baldur's gate is about existential crisis conflict as dealing about as the original game the monster within. One thing that could help, is to give nostalgia music some familiar themes, from older games within new arrangements.



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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Disagreement between who ? those waiting for a BG game, those waiting the new larian game, those waiting for the new D&D game.

BG1+2 fans, most or all of whom played and formed opinions of those games before BG3 was announced.
Sorting people into groups based on their opinions doesn't change the fact that there are differing opinions.


You're right, but maybe this can help you understand why nearly everywhere consumers talk about BG3 is not a happy place wink
Whatever you know it or you don't care, that's another point.


I think you're not totally right or totally false about nostalgia.
BG was created when games were different than now. The industry was not the same, the players were not the same, the "age" was not the same.
This doens't mean that the receipe can't work now. Old School RPG show it to us. Their public is not only old fans, but players that love playing another way.
That's what I expected and that's why I was so hyped when I learned Larian had the game in his hands : the mix between an "old school way of playing RPG" and the larian's touch, including new macanics, graphics,...

I read somewhere on the forum something I find interresting.. Someone said something like in BG3, you'll probably have a story telling more "impressive", with video during dialogues, events, something more like a film... But the inconvenient of that is that you'll have less choices to create your story (This is probably not the right words, but this was the idea).

That's what BG is according to me : a story... YOUR story in a really coherent and "real" world.
It's not about "accessibility", multiplayer,... It's not only about gameplay and visual effects, it's about your imagination, the way you want to do things in the story.
This freedom, this explorations, this sensations you're in a real rude world you have to deal with, you don't really find it in new games.
As said before it's hard to explain because it's all about feelings...

And this is where I don't totally agree with nostalgia because it don't think it should always be the only way. This is just how it is NOW, because no one try something else at the moment and because they are receipe that actually sells well so, why to try something else ?
I'm convinced that a real modern BG-like game could be a great sucess... This is just not the way Larian and WoTC took for BG3.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/03/20 11:49 AM.
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Originally Posted by vometia

Stop insulting people or I'll ban you.

I would really like this forum to have "like" buttons.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Disagreement between who ? those waiting for a BG game, those waiting the new larian game, those waiting for the new D&D game.

BG1+2 fans, most or all of whom played and formed opinions of those games before BG3 was announced.
Sorting people into groups based on their opinions doesn't change the fact that there are differing opinions.


You're right, but maybe this can help you understand why nearly everywhere consumers talk about BG3 is not a happy place wink
Whatever you know it or you don't care, that's another point.

Sorry but that is normal for a alot of new games that inherit older franchises. The unhappy are ALWAYS more vocal on any medium. Those that are happy at what they saw often don't even go on forums. Several I have spoken to are simply happy to wait until more presentation videos come out, they don't have time for forums, certainly not with a project still so far in its infancy.

I have been involved in a fair few pre-alpha / Alpha tests for games and it's often the same. Big shouting at the start, acceptance later on and even like when things are actually ready, when it counts. Not everyone sure, but this is why the hyperbole here is dissapointing, it's unnecessary. BG means so many different things to so many. Raze is right there is no 1 group here.

Baldur's Gate 2 was the pinncle of my late teens in terms of gaming, no other RPG came close since until Mass Effect2 or the Witcher series (mostly W3). Not because there weren't good games, but because of the story and timing and my life etc... BG2 was defining. But my reasons for liking it aren't yours and that's fine, but it is why trying to label groups into hardcore or D&D enthusiasts or whatever serves zero purpose.

Comment on what you like and dislike for you, not anyone else and accept that your comments will find traction or not and be apart of the process, but don't be a part of a vocal hate group who are too precious about a cherished childhood memory, because we all have those memories, not 1 person's is more important than anyone elses.

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Originally Posted by kyrthorsen

It was said by a person that has a lot of gaming history and experience specifically within the fantasy rpg genre.


Oh wait - I have a longer gaming history and more experience specifially within the fantasy RPG genre. Does that mean I automatically win the debate if I disagree with you?

Well that was easy...

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Originally Posted by Boeroer
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen

It was said by a person that has a lot of gaming history and experience specifically within the fantasy rpg genre.


Oh wait - I have a longer gaming history and more experience specifially within the fantasy RPG genre. Does that mean I automatically win the debate if I disagree with you?

Well that was easy...

Oooh ooh, let's compare let's compare!!! ;-P

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
I don't understand why is so hard to understand people asking a game of a series to resemble the previous installments of said series


I don't think it is a question of understanding why they would want it to resemble the originals; it is a question of why they would expect so many others to want it.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
we are ''blinded by nostalgia''


It's a reasonable explanation.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
and [we're] a ''minority''


Do you think many people in their teens and 20s are clamoring for BG3 to look and play like a game that was made when or before they were born? Do you think the many people over 40 who already felt about something else (e.g D&D) the way you do about BG1&2 are clamoring for BG3 to look and play like something that was just another good game in the history of their RPG playing experience? Why on earth do you think you are anything but a minority?





Thq question is not why they would expect so many others to want it, the question is why would you be against it. There's a reason why a game become a series and why the game of the same series resemble each other,there's none for the opposite.

Again,you claim is a reasonable explanation just because you choose to ignore all the extensive explanations people have offered already, you're just proving my point here.

Yes,I am 29 (28 last month) and I played the originals,I got BG1 as a present when I was like...around 10yo and I could barely play it, but still enjoyed it. Then a few years later when I had more gaming knowledge reinstalled it and beated it,same goes for BG2 and later I've played them both over the years from time to time because they're still solid games 20 years after. The EE editions came around...2012-2013? I know for a fact that a lot of people got their first experience with the EE and really liked BG and those people are a lot younger than older BG fans but still won't recognise BG in BG3. Just take a look at people saying they're going to try BG1 and 2 because they're thrilled by BG3 and when they do they won't understand why BG3 is called BG3.

So,long story short,yes I don't think we're a minority,this situation would never had happened if we were,and nobody would have complained about a new D&D game called Baldur's Gate:Divinity Sin but when they choose to call it BG3 to grab old BG fans attention and money and they don't deliver anything that resembles that,then the problem arises. The marketing technique basically backfired,they could have had the same success without it and none of the argument going on now.

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This discussion reminds me a lot of the monk companion quest in Pillars of Eternity1.

Many players do not seek to experience a good RPG.
The seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago.
They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now. The fact that they have played BG (and probably other games) have changed their feelings and opinions about those games since then.
No game will ever satisfy them because it feels different than the feeling they had when playing BG 20 years ago.

PS: I do not suggest to take the same kind of therapy as this char did.
He walks around completely stoned, the world is full of funny colors and he talks to animals, plants and ghosts. Quite a horror trip.


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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Disagreement between who ? those waiting for a BG game, those waiting the new larian game, those waiting for the new D&D game.

BG1+2 fans, most or all of whom played and formed opinions of those games before BG3 was announced.
Sorting people into groups based on their opinions doesn't change the fact that there are differing opinions.


Originally Posted by Adgaroth
And you can come and repeat the same ''There's no consensus on original bg fans opinions'' mantra,but is nothing more than something you tell yourselves to fell better,there has been a lot of feedback on how BG3 can resemble BG1 and 2

There has been a lot of feedback, some people agree on some things, a lot of people agree on some things, but there is no universal consensus, unless you are defining away people who don't agree with you as not being BG fans.
I need no mantra; it would make my job easier if there was a clear consensus. Regardless, I'm not involved in the game design, so the only thing that effects is how precise the feedback collected is.


Originally Posted by Adgaroth
The only thing you do with your unreasonable fanboyism

When you were neutral, did you not see any 'unreasonable fanboyism' from BG fans?


Originally Posted by Adgaroth
seeing such refusal

What refusal, people disagreeing with opinions on the internet?


Of course everyone have his own oppinion, that's why we're individuals and not a collective mind,but even if some people want different combat mechanics or different color palet or whatever other thing said on this or other forum they all agree the game does not look like a BG game do they not? I see a 100% agreement on that.
If you know there's no universal consensus you should understand why is normal to have some disagreements even between BG fans.

Again,of course there's no universal consensus,that's the whole point xD and I'm not saying who is or who isn't a BG fan,but when the ''This looks like DOS3 and that's not a bad thing'' phrase exist I think we can safely say 90% of the people,fan or BG or not,don't see BG in this new BG game. And obviously I can safely say too that people who haven't played BG1 and 2 are not BG fans for obvious reasons so they don't care at all about it,and that would be fine,but I'm not fine with them coming here or other forums to pick fights with BG fans just because they want to recognise this game as a part of the series wich is a very reasonable thing, tell me why not if I'm wrong. (It's just an example but even with your eyes closed when you hear the music you hear DOS2,I'm preeetty sure Larian is using the same composer,wich is not bad,but he should try to do somethig a little bit different in my opinion,or maybe I'm wrong and it's not the same composer but then I wonder why I keep hearing DOS2 music)

And again (again) of course I saw and I SEE ''unreasonable fanboyism'' from BG fans, every product has its fanboys, but I think it's not that hard to recognise the demands of fanboys and ''normal fans'' (Just for the sake of differentiate groups,I don't even consider myself a fan of BG1) are very diferent. When one person ask for a change of the engine and other ask for voiced spellcasting and assets that resemble BG1 and 2 I think the line is pretty clear.

What refusal you ask. The refusal of having the game resemble its predecesor without putting at risk Swen/Larian vision for the game. I cannot be more clear.

I know they have a clear view of what they want the game to be and I know they want it to be THEIR game (I'm not in their mind so I don't know exactly what they want) but if a few visual changes (and some other things people is asking for) are in conflict with their overall idea of the game it has to be a very shallow idea (and I don't think that's the case for the record and that's precisely why I don't understand said refusal)


Originally Posted by Madscientits
This discussion reminds me a lot of the monk companion quest in Pillars of Eternity1.

Many players do not seek to experience a good RPG.
The seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago.
They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now. The fact that they have played BG (and probably other games) have changed their feelings and opinions about those games since then.
No game will ever satisfy them because it feels different than the feeling they had when playing BG 20 years ago.

PS: I do not suggest to take the same kind of therapy as this char did.
He walks around completely stoned, the world is full of funny colors and he talks to animals, plants and ghosts. Quite a horror trip.


You're assuming way too much but feel free to keep trying to psychoanalyze people instead of actually reading what they say.

''Many players do not seek to experience a good RPG.'' Seriously?
''The seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago.'' Or they simply expect a new game of the series that resembles said series,nothing wrong with that.
''They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now. The fact that they have played BG (and probably other games) have changed their feelings and opinions about those games since then.'' Weird that you know better than themselves the kind of people they were and the kind of people they're now. And what about the people that still play BG,are they the same they were now?have they change? I really need your insight here.
''No game will ever satisfy them because it feels different than the feeling they had when playing BG 20 years ago.'' It's nothing more than your opinion wich is far from the truth but neither of us can prove it.

Last edited by Adgaroth; 10/03/20 02:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by Riandor
[...]Sorry but that is normal for a lot of new games that inherit older franchises. The unhappy are ALWAYS more vocal on any medium. Those that are happy at what they saw often don't even go on forums. [...]

The same effect as why angry customers are X times (I can't recall) more likely to leave a (accordingly bad) review on everything in general.

Originally Posted by Riandor
BG means so many different things to so many. [...] But my reasons for liking it aren't yours and that's fine. [...] ...because we all have those memories, not 1 person's is more important than anyone elses.

Originally Posted by Madscientist
Many players [...] seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago. They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now. No game will ever satisfy them because it feels different than the feeling they had when playing BG 20 years ago.

Well said.
In addition, there is no developer on this earth, who can write code that exactly recreates memories which were already created by the experience of something good in the past.
And a fool who would even try.

Last edited by LaserOstrich; 10/03/20 02:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by LaserOstrich
Originally Posted by Riandor
[...]Sorry but that is normal for a lot of new games that inherit older franchises. The unhappy are ALWAYS more vocal on any medium. Those that are happy at what they saw often don't even go on forums. [...]

The same effect as why angry customers are X times (I can't recall) more likely to leave a (accordingly bad) review on everything in general.

Originally Posted by Riandor
BG means so many different things to so many. [...] But my reasons for liking it aren't yours and that's fine. [...] ...because we all have those memories, not 1 person's is more important than anyone elses.

Originally Posted by Madscientist
Many players [...] seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago. They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now. No game will ever satisfy them because it feels different than the feeling they had when playing BG 20 years ago.

Well said.
In addition, there is no developer on this earth, who can write code that exactly recreates memories which were already created by the experience of something good in the past.
And a fool who would even try.


you are wrong. i have that old school feeling with pathfinder kingmaker.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Boeroer
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen

It was said by a person that has a lot of gaming history and experience specifically within the fantasy rpg genre.


Oh wait - I have a longer gaming history and more experience specifially within the fantasy RPG genre. Does that mean I automatically win the debate if I disagree with you?

Well that was easy...

Oooh ooh, let's compare let's compare!!! ;-P


Having seen Boeroer's Steam time on certain fantasy RPGs. Good luck! You'll need it.

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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Boeroer
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen

It was said by a person that has a lot of gaming history and experience specifically within the fantasy rpg genre.


Oh wait - I have a longer gaming history and more experience specifially within the fantasy RPG genre. Does that mean I automatically win the debate if I disagree with you?

Well that was easy...

Oooh ooh, let's compare let's compare!!! ;-P


Having seen Boeroer's Steam time on certain fantasy RPGs. Good luck! You'll need it.

I played most of mine outside of Steam, including Witcher 3 on PS4 because my PC needed an upgrade at the time it came out, but yeah... I was only jesting really. Plus I am quite glad I don't have it all on Steam, not sure I want to know how many hours I have invested in certain games (yeah I'm looking at you Homeworld 2, Overwatch, Star Craft 2 and all things Diablo...!!!)

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Originally Posted by LaserOstrich
Originally Posted by Riandor
[...]Sorry but that is normal for a lot of new games that inherit older franchises. The unhappy are ALWAYS more vocal on any medium. Those that are happy at what they saw often don't even go on forums. [...]

The same effect as why angry customers are X times (I can't recall) more likely to leave a (accordingly bad) review on everything in general.

Originally Posted by Riandor
BG means so many different things to so many. [...] But my reasons for liking it aren't yours and that's fine. [...] ...because we all have those memories, not 1 person's is more important than anyone elses.

Originally Posted by Madscientist
Many players [...] seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago. They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now. No game will ever satisfy them because it feels different than the feeling they had when playing BG 20 years ago.

Well said.
In addition, there is no developer on this earth, who can write code that exactly recreates memories which were already created by the experience of something good in the past.
And a fool who would even try.


I don't understand all this childhood memories thing you so adamant use as an argument.
Harry Potter fans expect Harry Potter things, Witcher fans expect Witcher things,BG fans expect BG things, that's why franchises and series exist,because people know what to expect when buy/consume something from that franchise/series.
For some people it may be the case,but if you think it's all about feelings and unreachable emotional goals for everyone you're very wrong.


I live a lucky life and I live my days playing videogames for 14+h a day,and it's been like that for almost 10 years (been playing since I was 7 tho) and that means nothing,in fact as I said earlier,the opinion of veteran gamers are worth nothing compared to the new gamers for most companies so in any case it may be even detrimental.

I avoid using steam,origin,epic,or any platform like a plague so if you base gaming experience on steam hours...let's say it may not be the most accurate. (Not even mentioning consoles as Riandor pointed out)

Last edited by Adgaroth; 10/03/20 02:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by Archaven
Originally Posted by LaserOstrich
Originally Posted by Riandor
[...]Sorry but that is normal for a lot of new games that inherit older franchises. The unhappy are ALWAYS more vocal on any medium. Those that are happy at what they saw often don't even go on forums. [...]

The same effect as why angry customers are X times (I can't recall) more likely to leave a (accordingly bad) review on everything in general.

Originally Posted by Riandor
BG means so many different things to so many. [...] But my reasons for liking it aren't yours and that's fine. [...] ...because we all have those memories, not 1 person's is more important than anyone elses.

Originally Posted by Madscientist
Many players [...] seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago. They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now. No game will ever satisfy them because it feels different than the feeling they had when playing BG 20 years ago.

Well said.
In addition, there is no developer on this earth, who can write code that exactly recreates memories which were already created by the experience of something good in the past.
And a fool who would even try.


you are wrong. i have that old school feeling with pathfinder kingmaker.


Well said wink

Ask Larian to create a new Baldur's Gate game with their touch and you'll probably have the same feelings with modern layout and mecanics.

Oh wait..... I was naive.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/03/20 02:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Archaven
you are wrong. i have that old school feeling with pathfinder kingmaker.

I may not have expressed myself so well.
If I understand you correctly, you had a good old experience with a new game.
That would be what I mean by not trying to touch old feelings, but to give ourselves the chance to experience something new, which may end up just as good.

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