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Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Originally Posted by LaserOstrich
Originally Posted by Riandor
[...]Sorry but that is normal for a lot of new games that inherit older franchises. The unhappy are ALWAYS more vocal on any medium. Those that are happy at what they saw often don't even go on forums. [...]

The same effect as why angry customers are X times (I can't recall) more likely to leave a (accordingly bad) review on everything in general.

Originally Posted by Riandor
BG means so many different things to so many. [...] But my reasons for liking it aren't yours and that's fine. [...] ...because we all have those memories, not 1 person's is more important than anyone elses.

Originally Posted by Madscientist
Many players [...] seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago. They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now. No game will ever satisfy them because it feels different than the feeling they had when playing BG 20 years ago.

Well said.
In addition, there is no developer on this earth, who can write code that exactly recreates memories which were already created by the experience of something good in the past.
And a fool who would even try.


I don't understand all this childhood memories thing you so adamant use as an argument.
Harry Potter fans expect Harry Potter things, Witcher fans expect Witcher things,BG fans expect BG things, that's why franchises and series exist,because people know what to expect when buy/consume something from that franchise/series.
For some people it may be the case,but if you think it's all about feelings and unreachable emotional goals for everyone you're very wrong.


Diablo 2 to Diablo 3
Elite to Elite Dangerous
Witcher 2 to Witcher 3

All games I was more cloesely linked to and can attest to seeing the same discussions. It's not my game because (Not dark enough, persistent online, open world, etc...) This always happens when there is a change and these are examples where games stayed within the same company, where the makers of the original games looked to change things up, because they don't just want to make the same thing again. The uproar on may of these things was over proportinally huge. Think Doom 2016 was already mentioned elsewhere.

Oh NWN to NWN2, sheesh... forums will always be forums. Too often too heated for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Elite to Elite Dangerous

I remember playing Elite in 1984. Any version of Elite that doesn't require saving to crinkly cassette tape is for lightweights etc.


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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Riandor
Elite to Elite Dangerous

I remember playing Elite in 1984. Any version of Elite that doesn't require saving to crinkly cassette tape is for lightweights etc.

Yeah I remember having to deal with your types, pfff, hardcore fangirl edgelord! ;-D

But as we are from the same city, I'll cut you some slack.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Originally Posted by LaserOstrich
Originally Posted by Riandor
[...]Sorry but that is normal for a lot of new games that inherit older franchises. The unhappy are ALWAYS more vocal on any medium. Those that are happy at what they saw often don't even go on forums. [...]

The same effect as why angry customers are X times (I can't recall) more likely to leave a (accordingly bad) review on everything in general.

Originally Posted by Riandor
BG means so many different things to so many. [...] But my reasons for liking it aren't yours and that's fine. [...] ...because we all have those memories, not 1 person's is more important than anyone elses.

Originally Posted by Madscientist
Many players [...] seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago. They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now. No game will ever satisfy them because it feels different than the feeling they had when playing BG 20 years ago.

Well said.
In addition, there is no developer on this earth, who can write code that exactly recreates memories which were already created by the experience of something good in the past.
And a fool who would even try.


I don't understand all this childhood memories thing you so adamant use as an argument.
Harry Potter fans expect Harry Potter things, Witcher fans expect Witcher things,BG fans expect BG things, that's why franchises and series exist,because people know what to expect when buy/consume something from that franchise/series.
For some people it may be the case,but if you think it's all about feelings and unreachable emotional goals for everyone you're very wrong.


Diablo 2 to Diablo 3
Elite to Elite Dangerous
Witcher 2 to Witcher 3

All games I was more cloesely linked to and can attest to seeing the same discussions. It's not my game because (Not dark enough, persistent online, open world, etc...) This always happens when there is a change and these are examples where games stayed within the same company, where the makers of the original games looked to change things up, because they don't just want to make the same thing again. The uproar on may of these things was over proportinally huge. Think Doom 2016 was already mentioned elsewhere.

Oh NWN to NWN2, sheesh... forums will always be forums. Too often too heated for no good reason.


I can't say for the first 2 because I've never played them, and I'm not saying all the witcher games are the same, but I can recognise them at a glance on the first 5 minutes as being part of the same series,I've played them and enjoyed all without ANY issue (and I player witcher 1 when it came out,not after playing 3,so you could tag me as a purist in that regard)
I'm not against change in videogames,I'm against dishonest marketing.

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Originally Posted by Adgaroth
[quote=Riandor][quote=Adgaroth][quote=LaserOstrich][quote=Riandor][...]

I can't say for the first 2 because I've never played them, and I'm not saying all the witcher games are the same, but I can recognise them at a glance on the first 5 minutes as being part of the same series,I've played them and enjoyed all without ANY issue (and I player witcher 1 when it came out,not after playing 3,so you could tag me as a purist in that regard)
I'm not against change in videogames,I'm against dishonest marketing.


And I'm against hyperbole.
Can we perhaps agree that for now it isn't looking good enough for you and we all wait a little until we see some more before reaching for the pitchforks?

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
[quote=Riandor][quote=Adgaroth][quote=LaserOstrich][quote=Riandor][...]

I can't say for the first 2 because I've never played them, and I'm not saying all the witcher games are the same, but I can recognise them at a glance on the first 5 minutes as being part of the same series,I've played them and enjoyed all without ANY issue (and I player witcher 1 when it came out,not after playing 3,so you could tag me as a purist in that regard)
I'm not against change in videogames,I'm against dishonest marketing.


And I'm against hyperbole.
Can we perhaps agree that for now it isn't looking good enough for you and we all wait a little until we see some more before reaching for the pitchforks?


I've said it multiple times,I can only give my opinion based on what I've seen and a few interviews,and I don't have any problem on changing my opinion if or when I'm proved wrong,maybe one year from now the game screams BG everywhere but divination is not my school of magic so until then this is what it is. And I think is better to give feedback now that things can easily change and not when the game releases, if ''wait and see'' worked they wouldn't be undergoing an EA period.

I can't agree on that because is looking good enough,I'm not saying the game is or will be bad,I'm saying it's not BG enough (or at all) to be called BG3,thus my dishonest marketing problem.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
[quote=Riandor][quote=Adgaroth][quote=LaserOstrich][quote=Riandor][...]

I can't say for the first 2 because I've never played them, and I'm not saying all the witcher games are the same, but I can recognise them at a glance on the first 5 minutes as being part of the same series,I've played them and enjoyed all without ANY issue (and I player witcher 1 when it came out,not after playing 3,so you could tag me as a purist in that regard)
I'm not against change in videogames,I'm against dishonest marketing.


And I'm against hyperbole.
Can we perhaps agree that for now it isn't looking good enough for you and we all wait a little until we see some more before reaching for the pitchforks?


Why are you trying to convince anyone who's not satisfyed to what they saw to "wait and see" ?
Can't you admit we nearly see nothing remembering BG ? This is a BG game, can't you admit this is disspointing for many ?
This is a fact, not an opinion. As sure as you're positive about the game.

Every negative critics aren't based on hypothesis. *
The first general idea is that... We didn't see anything about BG...

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/03/20 03:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
[quote=Riandor][quote=Adgaroth][quote=LaserOstrich][quote=Riandor][...]

I can't say for the first 2 because I've never played them, and I'm not saying all the witcher games are the same, but I can recognise them at a glance on the first 5 minutes as being part of the same series,I've played them and enjoyed all without ANY issue (and I player witcher 1 when it came out,not after playing 3,so you could tag me as a purist in that regard)
I'm not against change in videogames,I'm against dishonest marketing.


And I'm against hyperbole.
Can we perhaps agree that for now it isn't looking good enough for you and we all wait a little until we see some more before reaching for the pitchforks?


I've said it multiple times,I can only give my opinion based on what I've seen and a few interviews,and I don't have any problem on changing my opinion if or when I'm proved wrong,maybe one year from now the game screams BG everywhere but divination is not my school of magic so until then this is what it is. And I think is better to give feedback now that things can easily change and not when the game releases, if ''wait and see'' worked they wouldn't be undergoing an EA period.

I can't agree on that because is looking good enough,I'm not saying the game is or will be bad,I'm saying it's not BG enough (or at all) to be called BG3,thus my dishonest marketing problem.

Im not saying don't criticise, heck there are things I am not yet impressed by... I am just saying let's not reach for terms like dishonest marketing whilst we are still in pre-alpha and assets are known to be borrowed/completely missing.

I must admit, whilst I love early previews and being involved in alphas etc... I do sometimes yearn for the time when all we saw was an article in a magazine regarding upcoming titles and then release. Often showcasing early work to the public seems more trouble than it's worth (not aimed at you Adgaroth, just talking out loud).




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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
[quote=Riandor][quote=Adgaroth][quote=LaserOstrich][quote=Riandor][...]

I can't say for the first 2 because I've never played them, and I'm not saying all the witcher games are the same, but I can recognise them at a glance on the first 5 minutes as being part of the same series,I've played them and enjoyed all without ANY issue (and I player witcher 1 when it came out,not after playing 3,so you could tag me as a purist in that regard)
I'm not against change in videogames,I'm against dishonest marketing.


And I'm against hyperbole.
Can we perhaps agree that for now it isn't looking good enough for you and we all wait a little until we see some more before reaching for the pitchforks?


Why are you trying to convince anyone who's not satisfyed to what they saw to "wait and see" ?
Can't you admit we nearly see nothing remembering BG ? This is a BG game, can't you admit this is disspointing for many ?
This is a fact, not an opinion. As sure as you're positive about the game.

Every negative critics aren't based on hypothesis. *
The first general idea is that... We didn't see anything about BG...


Im saying to wait and see before going overboard, not wait and see before criticising.

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Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Originally Posted by LaserOstrich
[...]


I don't understand all this childhood memories thing you so adamant use as an argument.
Harry Potter fans expect Harry Potter things, Witcher fans expect Witcher things,BG fans expect BG things, that's why franchises and series exist,because people know what to expect when buy/consume something from that franchise/series.
For some people it may be the case,but if you think it's all about feelings and unreachable emotional goals for everyone you're very wrong.

Because it is a very emotional thing.
And is a very human error to the seek to the relive of individual emotional experiences, by trying to recreate the scene that is tangled with it.
The error is to systemtically overestimte anything that describe the scene in materialisitc, quantifiybale way.

Originally Posted by Riandor
[...] It's not my game because (Not dark enough, persistent online, open world, etc...) This always happens when there is a change and these are examples where games stayed within the same company, where the makers of the original games looked to change things up, because they don't just want to make the same thing again.

Polygons have no soul. We the people, we make things beautiful, and we make them ugly. It is us human beeings who keep memories. The can't be transfered. The same can't get more. There can be new ones, others. Which end up beeing what we were looking for.

I keep certain things, because they remind me of something. It would be possible to copy that thing. But then it is an other thing, that looks the same, but it has no value for me and the the attemp to recreate the memory by recreating the thing, was meant to fail.

But I can seek another adventure (without expecting it to be crap), because that was what I did when something became special for the first time.

Last edited by LaserOstrich; 10/03/20 03:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by Riandor
Yeah I remember having to deal with your types, pfff, hardcore fangirl edgelord! ;-D

But as we are from the same city, I'll cut you some slack.

We are? How slightly random. Because obviously there are no other gamers here. biggrin Yeah, I have been clocked wearing an N7 hoodie while out and about.

And guilty as charged: I don't get much opportunity as I mostly like all the unfashionable games. I need to reply to that topic listing my top five as Oblivion, Doom 3, HL2, Inquisition and FO3 to feel the derision without anybody even having to comment. Okay, it's not a strictly accurate list (and not just because it changes with my mood) but I am That Person™ who finds herself on the wrong side of most of these debates.


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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
[quote=Riandor][quote=Adgaroth][quote=LaserOstrich][quote=Riandor][...]

I can't say for the first 2 because I've never played them, and I'm not saying all the witcher games are the same, but I can recognise them at a glance on the first 5 minutes as being part of the same series,I've played them and enjoyed all without ANY issue (and I player witcher 1 when it came out,not after playing 3,so you could tag me as a purist in that regard)
I'm not against change in videogames,I'm against dishonest marketing.


And I'm against hyperbole.
Can we perhaps agree that for now it isn't looking good enough for you and we all wait a little until we see some more before reaching for the pitchforks?


I've said it multiple times,I can only give my opinion based on what I've seen and a few interviews,and I don't have any problem on changing my opinion if or when I'm proved wrong,maybe one year from now the game screams BG everywhere but divination is not my school of magic so until then this is what it is. And I think is better to give feedback now that things can easily change and not when the game releases, if ''wait and see'' worked they wouldn't be undergoing an EA period.

I can't agree on that because is looking good enough,I'm not saying the game is or will be bad,I'm saying it's not BG enough (or at all) to be called BG3,thus my dishonest marketing problem.

Im not saying don't criticise, heck there are things I am not yet impressed by... I am just saying let's not reach for terms like dishonest marketing whilst we are still in pre-alpha and assets are known to be borrowed/completely missing.

I must admit, whilst I love early previews and being involved in alphas etc... I do sometimes yearn for the time when all we saw was an article in a magazine regarding upcoming titles and then release. Often showcasing early work to the public seems more trouble than it's worth (not aimed at you Adgaroth, just talking out loud).





I know what you mean and it pains me more than you know to call it dishonest marketing but the only things I've seen so far are Swen saying he took BG3 because he thought it could reach more people than DOS2 ever did and that could make more people to play Larian's older games and the demo not showing anything that could remotely resemble BG. Based on that I'm only adding 1+1 (If I'm wrong I'll be the happiest boi in town)

When I heard Larian was making BG3 I was as happy as I could get because I had HUGE respect for Larian and their games (not only DOS and DOS2) I knew they had character,and they were passionate about their trade so the game was in good hands. Now I'm just disappointed but like I said,if things change I'll be the first to acknowledge it and be happy about it

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Originally Posted by LaserOstrich
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Originally Posted by LaserOstrich
[...]


I don't understand all this childhood memories thing you so adamant use as an argument.
Harry Potter fans expect Harry Potter things, Witcher fans expect Witcher things,BG fans expect BG things, that's why franchises and series exist,because people know what to expect when buy/consume something from that franchise/series.
For some people it may be the case,but if you think it's all about feelings and unreachable emotional goals for everyone you're very wrong.

Because it is a very emotional thing.
And is a very human error to the seek to the relive of individual emotional experiences, by trying to recreate the scene that is tangled with it.
The error is to systemtically overestimte anything that describe the scene in materialisitc, quantifiybale way.

Originally Posted by Riandor
[...] It's not my game because (Not dark enough, persistent online, open world, etc...) This always happens when there is a change and these are examples where games stayed within the same company, where the makers of the original games looked to change things up, because they don't just want to make the same thing again.

Polygons have no soul. We the people, we make things beautiful, and we make them ugly. It is us human beeings who keep memories. The can't be transfered. The same can't get more. There can be new ones, others. Which end up beeing what we were looking for.

I keep certain things, because they remind me of something. It would be possible to copy that thing. But then it is an other thing, that looks the same, but it has no value for me and the the attemp to recreate the memory by recreating the thing, was meant to fail.

But I can seek another adventure (without expecting it to be crap), because that was what I did when something became special for the first time.


The fact that you feel like that doesn't mean every other person is as ''emotional'' about games, if the next...let's say witcher (again) game looks like fallout or vice versa I won't be pleased,not because I don't like witcher or fallout,it will be because they're simply not.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post,the page doesn't allow too many quotes xD

Last edited by Adgaroth; 10/03/20 03:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Adgaroth

I know what you mean and it pains me more than you know to call it dishonest marketing but the only things I've seen so far are Swen saying he took BG3 because he thought it could reach more people than DOS2 ever did and that could make more people to play Larian's older games and the demo not showing anything that could remotely resemble BG. Based on that I'm only adding 1+1 (If I'm wrong I'll be the happiest boi in town)

When I heard Larian was making BG3 I was as happy as I could get because I had HUGE respect for Larian and their games (not only DOS and DOS2) I knew they had character,and they were passionate about their trade so the game was in good hands. Now I'm just disappointed but like I said,if things change I'll be the first to acknowledge it and be happy about it

Fair enough! Let's hope so hehe

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I agree that BG 1 and 2 aren't reproducible, the spirit is tied up in the people who made it and played it, people pour meaning into these things. So, the best you can do is make a homage of sorts, like a party-based D&D game set in the Forgotten Realms. Which, unsurprisingly, is what Larian is making.

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Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Thq question is not why they would expect so many others to want it, the question is why would you be against it.


Because without the rose tinted glasses, you see the game for what it is: out-dated.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Again,you claim is a reasonable explanation just because you choose to ignore all the extensive explanations people have offered already, you're just proving my point here.


I have not ignored the excuses that have been given; I see nostalgia as the reason these excuses exist.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
So,long story short ... this situation would never had happened


What has happened? 5-10 upset people are making hundreds of posts in opposition to what was seen in the pre-alpha release? Hardly a calamity.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
yes I don't think we're a minority


Okay, let's try a different approach. I suspect none, or at most an insignificant number of the hardcore BG1&2 fans would want BG3 to have TB instead of RTwP. If that's the case, the PC Gamer poll showing 53.5% want TB indicates that the BG1&2 camp are a minority. Of the 46.5% who want RTwP, it is reasonable to expect that not all of them are BG1&2 fans, but just RTwP fans (Dragon Age fans, for example), probably even a good amount. So, no matter how you slice, you seem to be the minority.

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Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
[quote=Riandor][quote=Adgaroth][quote=LaserOstrich][quote=Riandor][...]

I can't say for the first 2 because I've never played them, and I'm not saying all the witcher games are the same, but I can recognise them at a glance on the first 5 minutes as being part of the same series,I've played them and enjoyed all without ANY issue (and I player witcher 1 when it came out,not after playing 3,so you could tag me as a purist in that regard)
I'm not against change in videogames,I'm against dishonest marketing.


And I'm against hyperbole.
Can we perhaps agree that for now it isn't looking good enough for you and we all wait a little until we see some more before reaching for the pitchforks?


I've said it multiple times,I can only give my opinion based on what I've seen and a few interviews,and I don't have any problem on changing my opinion if or when I'm proved wrong,maybe one year from now the game screams BG everywhere but divination is not my school of magic so until then this is what it is. And I think is better to give feedback now that things can easily change and not when the game releases, if ''wait and see'' worked they wouldn't be undergoing an EA period.

I can't agree on that because is looking good enough,I'm not saying the game is or will be bad,I'm saying it's not BG enough (or at all) to be called BG3,thus my dishonest marketing problem.


It's not dishonest marketing because they're not selling what we saw.
What we saw is meant to drum up interest. Get people thinking 'Hey! A new Baldur's Gate! Let's see how it looks on launch!'
Not 'Let's buy exactly what we see, right at this moment.'

They're not marketing, or selling, the pre-alpha. Save your criticisms for when the game actually releases. THAT is when Larian is saying 'We are happy with what we have done so far, and think you will be, as well.'

Once again; my analogy works:
You are complaining that milk, eggs, flour & sugar don't look like the $500 wedding cake you saw in the photo.
It has to be mixed & baked first. There's still a long way to go.

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Originally Posted by Madscientist
The seek to have the same impressive experience they had when playing BG for the first time ages ago.They are doomed to fail, because they are different people now.


This is it. The one group I would not try to satisfy are the hardcore BG1&2 fans because nothing will ever be good enough. The experience cannot be reproduced because of the missing crucial ingredient of them being who they were when they first experienced the games. The same goes for all of us, just with different games, but in all manner of things (music, movies, etc.). You can't get it back.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Thq question is not why they would expect so many others to want it, the question is why would you be against it.


Because without the rose tinted glasses, you see the game for what it is: out-dated.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
Again,you claim is a reasonable explanation just because you choose to ignore all the extensive explanations people have offered already, you're just proving my point here.


I have not ignored the excuses that have been given; I see nostalgia as the reason these excuses exist.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
So,long story short ... this situation would never had happened


What has happened? 5-10 upset people are making hundreds of posts in opposition to what was seen in the pre-alpha release? Hardly a calamity.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
yes I don't think we're a minority


Okay, let's try a different approach. I suspect none, or at most an insignificant number of the hardcore BG1&2 fans would want BG3 to have TB instead of RTwP. If that's the case, the PC Gamer poll showing 53.5% want TB indicates that the BG1&2 camp are a minority. Of the 46.5% who want RTwP, it is reasonable to expect that not all of them are BG1&2 fans, but just RTwP fans (Dragon Age fans, for example), probably even a good amount. So, no matter how you slice, you seem to be the minority.


Thank you for being the perfect example of what I said.

The game does not have to be done on the same engine or use any assets from the old ones,the game can look like BG without being updated,you are saying the same old excuses (you want RTwP you want old graphics me no like waaah)

You call those arguments excuses and nostalgia,I call them reasonable feedback,we agree to disagree.

Or 5-10 people adamantly defending the game and arguing with BG fan for no reason? It's not a calamity and it's not going to make the game ''fail'',but it wasn't a good decion.

I'm not going to even bother answering the last one,it's not only about RTwP or not,keep focusing on that if you want. I like both,TB and RTwP.
A poll on PC gamer...wow,Im sure the numbers are very accurate (I didn't even know about it)

Originally Posted by Eguzky
IOnce again; my analogy works:
You are complaining that milk, eggs, flour & sugar don't look like the $500 wedding cake you saw in the photo.
It has to be mixed & baked first. There's still a long way to go.


The photo was a strawberry cake and so far I've only seen chocolate,they may add the strawberies later but so far is what it is. We have seen the game working,not random pieces of it without context,wich is your ingredients. But I get what you mean I just don't agree with it.

Last edited by Adgaroth; 10/03/20 04:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by Adgaroth
the game can look like BG without being updated


What?

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
I'm not going to even bother answering the last one,it's not only about RTwP or not,keep focusing on that if you want. I like both,TB and RTwP.
A poll on PC gamer...wow,Im sure the numbers are very accurate (I didn't even know about it)


TB vs RTwP isn't directly the point; the poll is (which had over 33k responses on and was conducted on a neutral site, so yes, we can be confident it is accurate).

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