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As a huge BG fan, I'm not gonna say they stole the name just yet. I'm willing to wait until release at least! Shouldn't we wait until we've seen the rest of the game (and after Larian's actually finished it) until we render that kind of judgement? laugh

Having said that, my first impression was mixed. So.. Here's to hoping they can turn all the skeptics around. Let's give them a fair chance at least.

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It's gonna be too late if we wait till the release.
That's why it's important to say things now.

Of course there is a way to say things and there are still many things to see.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by kanisatha
D:OS fans are the core target audience the game is being made for and not for anyone who is not a D:OS fan.

The DOS fanbase and those who are not fans of DOS are not mutually exclusive. Larian can be making the game for both the huge (and current) crowd of DOS fans as well as those who never played DOS1&2 (i.e those who are not DOS fans).

Yes all fanbases are to one extent or another cross-cutting.

I was just saying that they can certainly hit two birds with one stone. They can simultaneously be targeting both DOS fans and people who never played DOS1 or 2

Originally Posted by kanisatha
But don't you think it is telling that the only fanbase that is near-universally thrilled with this game is the D:OS fanbase, whereas the BG and D&D fanbases are at a minimum divided and at most only lukewarm in their reactions to this game?

I don't know that you should go so far as to include the D&D crowd in there, of which the BG crowd is a subset. I was and am a D&D fan long before a DOS fan. I'm sure they are scores of thousands like me.

Originally Posted by kanisatha
I mean if, as Swen and other Larian people have been saying, this game is not a D:OS game and is truly a BG and D&D game, then shouldn't at least some portion of the D:OS fanbase feel like this is NOT their game?

Maybe some portion does. But I would say that most fans of DOS have faith in Larian to deliver a great game because of what they did in with DOS2 (and 1). I don't think DOS fans are hung up on the particulars of DOS games. And what "is not a DOS game" or "is truly a BG and D&D game" means can vary greatly from person to person.

Originally Posted by kanisatha
I love the PoE games. But I don't care at all for The Outer Worlds. So just because I love some games of a certain developer does not mean I will or should love all their games, right? But I cannot find any D:OS fans who intend to pass on BG3. That says something to me. It says a whole heck of a lot, actually, that the D:OS fanbase itself fully expects BG3 to be a D:OS game but just with D&D rules and set in the Realms.

Similar to what I said above, all it says to me is that DOS fans expect another spectacular experience. I know I don't expect a lot of what is in DOS2 to be in BG3, but I also expect a similar experience. I think it will be an improvement.

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Originally Posted by korotama
Yes, sales will probably help them break even and then some but reputation takes long to build and not nearly as long to be ruined. Calling it anything other than BG3 would have prevented most negative feedback.

Originally Posted by kanisatha

Yes all fanbases are to one extent or another cross-cutting. But don't you think it is telling that the only fanbase that is near-universally thrilled with this game is the D:OS fanbase, whereas the BG and D&D fanbases are at a minimum divided and at most only lukewarm in their reactions to this game? I mean if, as Swen and other Larian people have been saying, this game is not a D:OS game and is truly a BG and D&D game, then shouldn't at least some portion of the D:OS fanbase feel like this is NOT their game? I love the PoE games. But I don't care at all for The Outer Worlds. So just because I love some games of a certain developer does not mean I will or should love all their games, right? But I cannot find any D:OS fans who intend to pass on BG3. That says something to me. It says a whole heck of a lot, actually, that the D:OS fanbase itself fully expects BG3 to be a D:OS game but just with D&D rules and set in the Realms.

The game looks and plays quite a bit like DOS, so that game's fans would NATURALLY be more satisfied. Relative to that, others would OBVIOUSLY be less excited as they have no/less hands-on experience with that type of gameplay or with Larian in general. Simply stating something that obvious is superfluous, let alone making an innuendo out of it. That says something to me. It says a whole heck of a lot, actually, that you have in your possession a tinfoil-hat +5! I'm absolutely convinced that a the large majority of the negative feedback is almost exclusively over the turn-based combat issue. I never saw any thread where that matter wasn't the crux of the grievance, with accusations of the title being a shameless money grab, and "looks too little like muh BG" (while failing to explain why that is) or alternatively "looks too much like bleh DOS" seemingly tacked on to add weight to their entitlement.

On what grounds rooted in D&D would pure-D&D fans have to dislike BG3? Nothing obvious, and certainly not the turn-based combat that is a must for 5e. On what grounds rooted in BG would pure BG-fans have to dislike BG3? Turn-based combat? As for the money grab issue, Larian has stated that there will be significant tie-ins to the original, but there is indubitably aspects of that for sure. This is a business after all. But is it a money grab of the proportions of Fallout 3, 3NV, 4, let alone 76, though? Is BG3 any less of a BG game than Bethesda's/Obsidian's newer Fallout games are Fallout games? The latter are hugely more dissimilar to their origin than BG3 is to it's origin after all.

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I have to point out that the game looks like Dos2...in pictures.

Anyone that played DoS games even for a few hours and watched the gameplay could clearly see that mechanically those are very different: BG3 uses D&D mechanics, spells and classes and those are nothing like DoS games.

DoS games do not have party initiative like X-com, for starters; no cooldowns for spells; check rolls for skills, and the actions are limited by action points not by one-movement, one bonus-one action, not every class can evade attacks of opportunity, you do not have damage bonuses for high ground in BG3, spells are nothing alike, you can avoid fall damage, sneak requires a check, the animations are different, The shove action does not exist in DoS games, etc, etc... I could be here all day stating the differences.

It was like the first witcher and Neverwinter nights 2. Both use the Aurora game engine so the models look similar in pictures, but when you play you soon forget that because the gameplay is too different.

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You choose the most minor, superficial things to say it looks nothing like DOS.

If you took away all marketing and intros from the gameplay, and put that video side by side with DOS on one side and BG on the other, and showed those videos to someone who has never played EITHER game ...

can you honestly sit here and say that they would think it was BG?

"D&D" isn't enough of a differentiator.

They are party based RPGs, setting is kind of irrelevant to the mechanical "game" part of the title, as you can have a D&D setting in ANY kind of game, and likewise an RPG could have ANY setting.

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>the most minor, most superficial things

So... the gameplay mechanics? The combat mechanics (aka 90% of the dnd ruleset and 98% of the OS2 ruleset) are different.
TOTALY THE SAME GAME BRO.

I cant even tell whats a parody account anymore.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
You choose the most minor, superficial things to say it looks nothing like DOS.

If you took away all marketing and intros from the gameplay, and put that video side by side with DOS on one side and BG on the other, and showed those videos to someone who has never played EITHER game ...

can you honestly sit here and say that they would think it was BG?

"D&D" isn't enough of a differentiator.

They are party-based RPGs, the setting is kind of irrelevant to the mechanical "game" part of the title, as you can have a D&D setting in ANY kind of game, and likewise an RPG could have ANY setting.


For once I have to agree with Sordak.
So, now the setting and the combat mechanics are minor, superficial things when you try to define an RPG and compare games. That´s a first.

But putting gameplay video (I mean, not playing the game, you have to only watch the video) of a videogame of 2002 from another company and another from a videogame of 2018 of the same company, using the same engine and compare it with a videogame of 2020 to compare the similarities and you found out that the game of 2020 it´s more similar to the modern game... That´s the ultimate way of comparing games, It seems.

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Ravenloft: Strahd's Possession, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands and Spelljammer: Pirates of Realmspace are completely different games only by being on different settings. Has similar graphics and almost the same game mechanics but the setting makes playing then completely different

Same with mechanics. Diablo 2 and 3 has a similar setting but are completely different games not just by the wow arstyle of D3, but also by WoW mechanics on D3 and mechanics(which ruins the game as someone who hates things like cooldowns)

Mechanics and setting is what DEFINE a RPG. Putting DOS2 mechanics into Dark Sun would make it a completely different game but a Dark Sun on DOS2 engine with AD&D mechanics and Dark Sun setting can feel like dark Sun.

That said, the unique big depart from Original BG is the turn based. And i an probably one of the few people here who is neutral between RtWP and TB. Both can be good and both can be bad.

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playing a very semantic game to avoid the the point of the comparison.

BG3 irrefutably LOOKS like DOS. No one would look at footage of BG 3 and think "oh hey, an new BG game!" if it wasn't pre-labelled. You know that was my point, but you choose instead to pick at semantics.

- character and environment models have the same proportions
- environmental interactivity is 100% carry over from DOS
- lighting and tone are the same as DOS
- they took GREAT lengths to hide the D&D mechanics so that you have combat that looks like DOS
- they are making just as many changes to core 5e as Bioware did back with 2e - so it's not even the "faithful" D&D game that people think it will be.

You also have Swen Vincke on video saying that he thinks BG name has wider reach than Divinity so he think it will be a good way to bring people to Larian-style RPGs.

There never was and there never will be an intent by Larian to make this game anything like Baldur's Gate that people are familiar with.


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No one said anything about that BG3 does not look like a DoS game. I mean, both are made by the same company and use the same engine.

What the previous posts said is that the LOOKS of a videogame does not define a game. The setting, the game mechanics, combat rules, etc... yes.

Personally do not care if bg3 is made in 8bit graphics and looks like the Tetris game or Castlevania as long as it´s playable.

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The look of a game does matter, and matters a great deal. Regardless of the underlying mechanics or lore, a video game by its very nature is something visual. Everything about the game happens through what you see on your display, and that visual gateway for the game is what you are going to be spending hundreds of hours being engaged with. Even Swen himself recognizes this and has said they are very aware that the game should not come across as a game with a D:OS skin. So it matters that the game should not look like a D:OS game, and it matters that it does (for now) look like a D:OS game.

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>hide the Dnd elements
what?
how?
>Muh lighter tone
bullshit.

Go back to RPG codex.
Im beyond giving a shit. Fucking few post accounts spouting the same nonsense every sngle thread.

And bruh, its not gonna look like baldurs gate.
Nobody makes 2d RPgs anymore. get over yourself, it was gonna be 3d one way or another.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
No one would look at footage of BG 3 and think "oh hey, an new BG game!" if it wasn't pre-labelled.

Make new posts, or chime in on ones already created, about each specific feature that you think Larian should do to make the game more BG and less DOS.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by qhristoff
No one would look at footage of BG 3 and think "oh hey, an new BG game!" if it wasn't pre-labelled.

Make new posts, or chime in on ones already created, about each specific feature that you think Larian should do to make the game more BG and less DOS.

"not make DOS reskin"

which is exactly what's happening, and it isn't going to change, which is why new threads aren't productive, because pedants like you come along and obfuscate differing opinions under a litany of superfluous, surface level rhetoric. hook like and sinker you've eaten up the marketing spin.

this game will be financially successful, but it isn't and never will be "Baldur's Gate" because it is 100% a modified DOS game. They took DOS, and modified the engine. I don't care how much it was modified, it's still just a glorified user mod to adapt DOS2 into D&D 5e.

It will never capture the same magic that BG did because it isn't innovating anything, it isn't introducing anything new, it isn't creating a whole new genre that will capture people's imaginations for 3 decades like BG did. Bioware did this because it made something new and never seen before.

Larian is incapable of doing this. It is, in Swen's own words, using the reach of the BG name to bring more players to Divinity style games.

you want to respect the spirit of BG? don't just rely on the tricks you already know.

Ooops ... too late.

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The game doesn't look like Baldur's Gate BUT at the same way is NOTHING like dos2. Only by not having item fever, Zimbabwe number inflation and cooldowns, already made it a solid RPG experience.

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^ if you put DOS2 and BG3 side by side with no branding and showed them to a new gamer, they'd think they were watching different areas of the same game.

i get that a lot of people are looking forward to Divinity: Baldur's Gate, but please stop pretending like BG3 looks nothing like DOS. It is disingenuous, and frankly almost gaslighting towards people who don't know the difference.

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Again, no one refutes that the BG3 gameplay and DOS2 do LOOK alike, what all the people here besides you are saying is that a game is not all about looks, there are plenty of other things like combat mechanics, setting, character creation, etc... and I think its a pipedream that you think a game made in 2020 by a different company is going to look like a game of 2002, no matter how incredible is the game.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by qhristoff
No one would look at footage of BG 3 and think "oh hey, an new BG game!" if it wasn't pre-labelled.

Make new posts, or chime in on ones already created, about each specific feature that you think Larian should do to make the game more BG and less DOS.

"not make DOS reskin"

which is exactly what's happening, and it isn't going to change, which is why new threads aren't productive, because pedants like you come along and obfuscate differing opinions under a litany of superfluous, surface level rhetoric. hook like and sinker you've eaten up the marketing spin.

this game will be financially successful, but it isn't and never will be "Baldur's Gate" because it is 100% a modified DOS game. They took DOS, and modified the engine. I don't care how much it was modified, it's still just a glorified user mod to adapt DOS2 into D&D 5e.

It will never capture the same magic that BG did because it isn't innovating anything, it isn't introducing anything new, it isn't creating a whole new genre that will capture people's imaginations for 3 decades like BG did. Bioware did this because it made something new and never seen before.

Larian is incapable of doing this. It is, in Swen's own words, using the reach of the BG name to bring more players to Divinity style games.

you want to respect the spirit of BG? don't just rely on the tricks you already know.

Ooops ... too late.


You aren't the first around here to share opinions (again, opinions) like this. Blanket statements, complaints, criticisms, etc. are of no constructive purpose or use. Now, if by "I don't care how much it was modified, it's still just a glorified user mod to adapt DOS2 into D&D 5e" you think that no changes short of a complete overhaul of what Larian is doing will be satisfactory, what is your point here? To vent? If so, congratulations. You've done so. We're very all impressed. Now move along.

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I had a hate towards larian too on past. Thanks to Shadiversity i purchased dos2 but honestly din't liked. Cooldowns, item fever, Zimbabwe currency number inflation, archers limited to 13m(...) and some people mentioning dos2 as "modern baldur's gate" when dos2 has everything that i hate on modern games.

Even created some rage threads when Vincke mentioned that "misses obvious not work", that "leveling is too slow" and other things ( http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=85196&Number=652816#Post652816 )

But after thinking a little more, my hate was just a irrational feeling due not liking most modern games and some comments generating high expectations.

I admit. Some things on the BAldur's Gate gameplay i din't liked like the fact that level 1 characters can deal with intellect devourers and the toy range of spells/bows will KILL the ranger class(that is already one of the weakest classes ever), but i confess that i was expecting a Sword Coast Legends feat Divinity Original Sin 2 and got a decent adaptation. Not a amazing adaptation like ToEE, but a decent one.

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