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veteran
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Joined: Mar 2013
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not saying its the only eaosn inquisition failed.
but its the reason it never had a chance to begin with.
and well yes.
aciton oriented games sell.
Specifically strategy oriented games as a rule of thumb dont.
hence why RTS is dead outside of total war.
RTWP doenst appeal to the action RPG market, because realy, it isnt.
the closest you can get to a broad appeal party focused RPG is dragons dogma
Last edited by Sordak; 13/04/20 08:53 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Mar 2020
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I think Inquisitions problems (frostbyte the source of most of them) have been well documented. Inquisition couldn't compete with the success of Skyrims and Witchers? Well yeah, Skyrim is a bit of a flash in the pan, isn't it. Not a whole lot that can compete with it. Regarding The Witcher 3, the reason why Inquisition flops miserably in comparison is that it's simply a worse game. It plays worse, it looks worse, it's just worse in most regards. The Witcher 3 is a masterpiece. Inquisition sure isn't. I believe this correlates directly to mainstream success / appeal (and lack thereof) regarding these two established franchises & developers. I don't think party based / RTwP is the reason why Inquisition didn't have a chance to begin with (although their choice of engine might very well be).
3rd person action or RTwP, solo or party based.. It's all in the implementation, the execution. The finished product. This is where Witcher 3 (and Skyrim, over contemporary games such as DA 2 and Witcher 2) shines.
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addict
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I hate JRPG's, but the new FF remake will gonna be real time with a tactical pause
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Mar 2020
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FF7 Remake is amazing. There is so much content. The combat is fluid, and it is more strategic than first glance. You really have to get good at swapping between characters to build up their ATB meter, which is what lets you pause in combat. the AI is solid for when you are not in direct control, no one derps around, but it really shines when you swap frequently.
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Duchess of Gorgombert
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Duchess of Gorgombert
Joined: May 2010
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im more talking about 2 and Inqusition.
Id say DAO was still a bit niche.
It didnt try to compete with the Open World RPGs of its time like Oblivion Maybe it's just the people I associate with, but most people I know who played Oblivion also played Oranges too. In terms of overall accessibility, I'm one of those people who takes a while to get the hang of any sufficiently complicated rule set and can't say I found either to be more complex than the other. I liked the other Dragon Ages too, though I do think the introduction of The Awesome Buttonâ„¢ saw them lose something (I forget the exact comment, but something like "...and when you press a button, something awesome happens!") but still preferred them to Skyrim. Not so much because of gameplay, just that Skyrim felt soulless to me, which counted against it more than the game mechanics, "awesome" or otherwise.
J'aime le fromage.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2015
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As far as I know, the world of the CRPG developers is a small one. The guys and gals of DCRed Project, Owlcat games, Larian, Inxile, obsidian, Tactical adventures know each other.
You can see them posting photos together in media. They publicly congratulate each other on Twitter. Larian is one of the usual crowdfunders in kickstarter CRPG games like the ones of Tactical adventures 5e game "Solasta" The Beamdog studio, that initially made a request to do BG3, congratulates them when they got to make the game,
You can see David Gaider, Josh sawyer, Tim Cain, Avellone, joking in twitter about each others games. They congratulate the others when they finally get to made games because they know how hard it is. When they asked the Owlcat studio devs about BG3 they give then their regards because they were also flamed due to their decision to include a TB option in their RPWP game PF: WoTR and they simply stated "Let Larian do BG3 whatever they want"
All this controversy always come from a (usually) toxic portion of (self-)called fans that only made a somewhat niche game types, the CRPG, even more niche. The devs get along with each other end doesn´t really care about those artificially-made wars between fans of games, never supported it, never gave their opinion about them besides to try to calm things down, never cared. They just made the best games they can and support the effort of the others that try to made CRPG games in the era of Call of Duty, FIFA's and the like.
Personally I played BG games, DoS games, PoE games, ToEE games, Divinity games, Pathfinder games, and also Fallout games, Last of us, Mass effect games, etc... and I liked them for different reasons and I always find pointless to try to convice other people that you should dislike another game because you play one of the "others" that you like. You can like both, or neither, who cares?
Fantastic post, thank you  
 Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist World leading expert of artificial stupidity. Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already 
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veteran
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Joined: Sep 2015
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I am a hardcore RPG fan even though I am not a very good player.
I like complex rules even if they give me problems sometimes and I think D:OS1+2 was a bit too simple for my taste (not game difficulty, I mean character creation complexity.)
As a fan of complex games I do not know what the average player thinks and how much complexity they want or at least accept.
But with the huge success of the original BG games, I think they can accept quite a lot.
BG1+2 were the first very complex games I have ever played and they made me a "hardcore fan". (Yes, one person is not representative for all players.)
RPGs are a niche genre, but I think that DnD is the mainstrem within this niche (or Pathfinder for those who still think that 3E was the best).
Personally I like the changes from 5E, but I can understand when extreme hardcore fans call it "dumped down" ( a term that I do not like at all, some people use it on everything they do not like) while "casual players" (whatever that is) call it too complicated.
Only time can tell who is right, but I think Larian did some market research before working on a new game.
Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist World leading expert of artificial stupidity. Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Apr 2020
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Can't wait for this game. Hopefully early access will be this year despite Covid-19.
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veteran
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Joined: Mar 2013
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complexity is a term most people struggle with.
i personally dont think most editions of DnD are very complex.
They are bloated.
Trap options arent complexity, tons of different (trap) options arent complexity.
having many stats to invest in isnt complexity if most of those stats are basically irrelevant for the class you play.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2015
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complexity is a term most people struggle with.
i personally dont think most editions of DnD are very complex.
They are bloated.
Trap options arent complexity, tons of different (trap) options arent complexity.
having many stats to invest in isnt complexity if most of those stats are basically irrelevant for the class you play. Sorry, I am not a native english speaker. What would be a better term? The existence of trap choices is bad, I guess. Lets say a game has 100 options to build a char and 90 of them are bad. An expert will ignore 90% of the stuff the game offers and he will feel great when doing crazy stuff with his OP char. New players cannot see what is a trap choice, so they will consider most choices as being equal and they will probably end up with a bad char which will ruin their fun. Kingmaker was my first pathfinder game and I made a bad char even though I did lots of reading about the rules before. The game has so many classes, races, feats, skills and so on that its very easy to get lost even if you have played other RPGs before. I am a bit scared because the new pathfinder game will have even more classes, races and so on plus your chars will become mystic. At least in BG1+2 reading the manual was enough for me to understand the basics and make a useful char (after endless rerolling).
Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist World leading expert of artificial stupidity. Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jun 2019
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(...)
I am a bit scared because the new pathfinder game will have even more classes, races and so on plus your chars will become mystic.(...) Kingmaker isn't hard to make a VIABLE character. A solo unfair char, yes, it is hard to make. You will need to min/max to pun-pun levels, but normal is not that hard... About Mythic paths, that is good. I really miss some P&P classes on kingmaker like witch, arcanist, oracle, etc. Loved the kineticist class that they added via DLC. As for the mythic path, i an wanting a game with path to lichdoom. The unique game with a path to lichdoom that i've played is M&M VII/VIII. Dread necromancer(mod) on nwn2 doens't give fully undead template even on lv 20. In general, i prefer vampires over liches but a path to lichdoom is welcomed since there are decades since i saw it in any game. And no, i an not in favor of lichdoom on BG3. One thing is having a lv 18 PC Lich or Vampire. Which is fine. Other thing is having a low level PC Vampire(low level guys can't become a Lich). Almost every DM agrees that it disturbs the campaign. ![[Linked Image]](https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/45nefvyRmo7PshQSzbWxp6.jpg)
Last edited by SorcererVictor; 15/04/20 01:59 PM.
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veteran
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Joined: Sep 2017
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I concur, there are astonishing good builds in PF that you can use that are much more effective than others, and there are a lot of power-gaming guides and posts in the net about the game, but you can beat P: K with a party of 6 bards or a solo water-earth kineticist If you want to (well, if you do not play in insane mode, you need a min-max party builds to play in the highest difficulties, the game is hardcore).
RPGs are a niche genre, but I think that DnD is the mainstream within this niche (or Pathfinder for those who still think that 3E was the best).
I like the changes from 5E, but I can understand when extreme hardcore fans call it "dumbed down" ( a term that I do not like at all, some people use it on everything they do not like) while "casual players" (whatever that is) call it too complicated.
Only time can tell who is right, but I think Larian did some market research before working on a new game.
The word I usually hear about 5e is even stronger than "dumped down", Its "Dumbed down" haha... and I think 5e is, in fact, more simple in character creation and mechanic-wise, it's laxer about the rules but that gives you more space to roleplay for the players and to homebrew for the DMs. Some people like it, some don´t. Former D&D editions and PF1e are like Harrod´s where they give you a product polished for years and they take it to your home and assemble it for you. It´s ready to go but if it breaks you need a Ph.D. to repair it and 5e is like Ikea, they give you the simplest, basic setting and rules and you have to put it together yourself, but you can paint it pink and make a two-story sofa if you want to without a sweat, anyone can learn to do it in a few. Using the SRD you can easily create star wars 5e, Witcher 5e, Sword Art 5e , etc...and many more you can find in the net. Personally, my choice would be PF 2e: It has the middle term between roleplay and complexity, at least I found it very enjoyable in that regard. It would be nice if some studio could make a game using 2e.
Last edited by _Vic_; 15/04/20 06:04 PM.
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Duchess of Gorgombert
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Duchess of Gorgombert
Joined: May 2010
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Former D&D editions and PF1e are like Harrod´s
I've never been to Harrods. I suspect they probably wouldn't let the likes of me enter their store anyway. I have been in Ikea. I can recommend not putting lingonberry sauce on the meatballs in gravy: the result is exceedingly bizarre. It's not inedible but it's like a sort of savoury toffee sauce. tbf to them, I don't think you're actually meant to do that; it was just the usual misadventure that I seem to make a pastime.
J'aime le fromage.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Mar 2020
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Lingonberry sauce on meatballs with mashed potatoes is definetly a thing. I quite like it Wait what are we talking about again
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2017
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2020
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No you're not only one. When I saw the demo, nearly lost my &%*t. I haven't played a turn based D&D video game since Warriors of the Eternal Sun. The graphics are amazing. I had resigned myself that NWN2 was going to be my last D&D video game. But now...
I didn't know much about 5e, but I learn Basic, Expert, AD&D, 2e, 2.5e (what my group called the black covered option books), 3e, & 3.5. So how hard can it be. Wow this game has really changed of the last forty some years. So I started watching You-Tube videos on the rules. With everything that's going on, I had a lot of time. Bought the PHB, Death Domain from the DMG, and the Githyanki from D&D Beyond. I've working on builds ever since. So yeah, I'm obsessed at the moment.
Last edited by Merlex; 18/04/20 10:42 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2020
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I borrowed your Lich pic for my Necromancer build "LIch's Apprentice" on D&D Beyond.
Last edited by Merlex; 18/04/20 10:47 PM.
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