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MasterServo #666156 11/04/20 11:56 AM
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> In ToB some classes or abilities are gods while others feel totally useless in comparison.


The games who changed P&P rules for "balance sake" din't changed that. Only made some beloved classes useless; i rather NOT having warlocks on nwn2 than having it with invocations that lasts 3 rounds contrary to one round / level(P&P), only one summon with the dead walk, tentacles that won't grapple, a eldritch blast that has his DC bugged and thus deals far less damage than my archer companion...

Note that on P&P, is expected that you and the DM will make/allow characters that makes sense story and theme wise. So a MP server banning multiclass(Except prestige class) will not be a huge problem. But on SP, let people have fun with their pun-pun builds if is what they like.

Keep in mind that this weapon masters would't be a problem if i disjunction was like P&P and could suppress his gear enchantments

MasterServo #666161 11/04/20 02:46 PM
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If the wizards have disjunction or baleful polymorph and the warlocks could cast infinitely 5d6, 10d6, 15d6 eldrich blasts, targeting touch armor with your ranged attacks from 600 ft away (using eldrich spear and spell sniper), leisurely sitting on a chair 2 blocks away as in PNP.... instead of having servers full of weapon masters we will have servers full of warlocks and wizards. The thing is making all classes playable and fun, and the wizards are very good even without those spells so I do not think that´s a priority. Rangers are, for example.

But, the butchery they did with the warlocks in NWN2, I absolutely agree...

Anyway, to balance things you do not have to mandatorily cripple classes or change most rules. You need to work with loot, setting and enemies too.
In the BG, you only have 2-3 decent slings in the entire trilogy even tho it is the only ranged weapon allowed to all the divine classes besides the shaman, So making a slinger halfling cleric of Yondalla could be fun but you will not be as effective as a melee cleric because slings in those games are not very good in comparison and there are plenty of characters whose only ranged option are the slings (All divine and pure arcane casters besides bards) and you will be competing for the same weapon.

Or in the OC NWN2 campaign, where 60-70% of the time you are fighting undead creatures ( immune to crits, SA and enchanting spells) so your bards and thieves will pass the time looking pretty while the others are busy destroying the living dead. (which is another good reason to let Grobnar stay in the camp all the time, but that´s not the point).



Last edited by _Vic_; 11/04/20 03:02 PM.
MasterServo #666162 11/04/20 03:23 PM
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__Vic__, Warlocks on 3.5e are limited to 250 feet. And that fighters with a longbow can hit far away and they have better BAB. And you are saying that "wizards are fine" but are NOT. Mainly necromancer specialized wizards and Pale masters. On Both NWN games; on NWN1, lose stop time and disjunction(even disjunction being far worst than on P&P since it can't dispel GEAR enchantments, it is the best SR lowering spell). And pale masters doesn't even give +caster level. Meaning that one level in wizard is better than 10 levels of pale master. On NWN2, undeads are immune to OHK spells like finger of death and only one summon limit removes the two best things from necromancers on P&P. OHK capability and multiple summons.

Imagine taking out all non fire based evocation spells in a campaign in the plane of fire with tons of fire immune enemies. That would kill a evoker wizard. Look to Pathfinder Kingmaker. Spawn of Rovagug is a nightmare for sorcerers/wizards, not because they nerfed their spells BUT because the Spawn of Rovagug has 36 pts of spell resistance.

That means that my lv cap sorcerer with great spell penetration(24 spell penetration) has like 40% of chance of hitting him(roll 12 or more) with any spell who allow SR. And since is a massive creature with good saves, even if i made him inside my Ice Prison spell, he will break the ice. My sorcerer was only attacking his minions while my martial classes was nuking him.

Jabberwocks also has like 31 SR and you fight a lot of then on end game.

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TL;DR - We have 95%+ weapon masters on servers and 5% of divine casters due the butchery that they did with arcane casters and ludicrous OP weapons who deals 666d6 elemental attack per round and can't be dispelled by disjunction

MasterServo #666164 11/04/20 03:36 PM
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Yeah, sadly the thing about weapon masters is the same in all NWN servers I know of, even in non-pvp servers.

Last edited by _Vic_; 11/04/20 03:37 PM.
MasterServo #666336 13/04/20 07:55 PM
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Larian could consider raising the lv cap at least to 11/12. Because many iconic cantrips only get a upgrade on lv 11(eldritch blast and fire bolt) and getting at least one slot of a 6th tier spell... Imagine the warlock getting to lv 5 and then, never getting a eldritch blast upgrade forever...

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 13/04/20 07:56 PM.
MasterServo #666362 14/04/20 03:12 AM
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One more thing about high level magic.

Fireball deals up to 10d6 damage(cl = 10 - tier 3). Cone of cold, deals 15d6(cl = 15, tier 5) and Meteor Swarm deals 20d6 damage and is a 9th tier spell. Going from tier 3 to 5 gives +5d6 damage. From 5 to 9, +5d6 damage. Is a huge bonus but is not game breaking like some people portrait.

And on 5e, they reduced the difference between high tier and mid tier spells by far Cone of cold deals 8d8 damage and fireball, 8d6. Also limited the usage of high tier magic, so a lv 20 sorcerer can no longer cast 6 reality shaping wishes in a row. Increasing the lv cap to 11/12 will not going to be a problem.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 14/04/20 03:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
One more thing about high level magic.

Fireball deals up to 10d6 damage(cl = 10 - tier 3). Cone of cold, deals 15d6(cl = 15, tier 5) and Meteor Swarm deals 20d6 damage and is a 9th tier spell. Going from tier 3 to 5 gives +5d6 damage. From 5 to 9, +5d6 damage. Is a huge bonus but is not game breaking like some people portrait.

And on 5e, they reduced the difference between high tier and mid tier spells by far Cone of cold deals 8d8 damage and fireball, 8d6. Also limited the usage of high tier magic, so a lv 20 sorcerer can no longer cast 6 reality shaping wishes in a row. Increasing the lv cap to 11/12 will not going to be a problem.

There is no spell scalling also. Low level spells lose their usefullness unless you cast them using higher spell slots, which creates a tradeoff since doing that you can't cast more high level spells.

MasterServo #666516 17/04/20 04:23 AM
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I don't mind the level cap, though I would have preferred it to offer the full 1-20 experience.

MasterServo #666535 17/04/20 04:53 PM
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Seriously though, name a single D&D campaign .. EVER .. where you level up from 1 through 20 in a single story arc.

I thought you guys wanted authentic D&D?

qhristoff #666537 17/04/20 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Seriously though, name a single D&D campaign .. EVER .. where you level up from 1 through 20 in a single story arc.

I thought you guys wanted authentic D&D?


One to 20 IDK BUT.

Most Dark Sun adventures recommend starting at lv 3 because lv 1 PC's has ZERO chance of surviving outside of cities
Descend to Arvenus is a lv 1 to 13 adventure. And if there is a continuation, it would be probably lv 14-18 or even 20.

MasterServo #666538 17/04/20 05:16 PM
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so, none.

almost as if D&D isn't meant to be a power trip from level 1 to 20.

almost as if y'all only want "authentic" D&D when it tickles your fancy.

qhristoff #666540 17/04/20 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
so, none.

almost as if D&D isn't meant to be a power trip from level 1 to 20.

almost as if y'all only want "authentic" D&D when it tickles your fancy.

Dude, please chill with the passive-aggressive stuff.

Gamers these days are used to a game being self-contained. So if D&D goes to level 20, they automatically expect a D&D game to go to level 20. Many people aren't really even thinking about it; it just makes sense with how large games can be these days.

Larian, however, is telling a story and, as the DM (so to speak) has decided that level 10 is the strongest level the players will need. Maybe they already have ideas for BG4, which will go from levels 10 to 20, and BG 3 & 4 will be it's own full story arc.
Maybe they'll bring back importing for BG4, so you can bring your dude straight from 3.

Heck, if I'm at all close, it'd be cool if they had a 'Companion' system where you can share your character files, and be an NPC in someone else's game in BG4.

But that's way off in the future. As it stands, BG3 is levels 1 to 10. There may be little need to grind overmuch, and 10 may feel either a bit stronger than needed to win, or just strong enough. We will have wait and see.

Eguzky #666541 17/04/20 05:37 PM
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it's funny how differently you behave on various forums.

qhristoff #666542 17/04/20 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
it's funny how differently you behave on various forums.

You going to actually discuss on the forums? Or just attack people, like you did 'on various forums'?

MasterServo #666543 17/04/20 05:46 PM
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if you search my name on this forum you'll see plenty of discussion.

qhristoff #666544 17/04/20 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Seriously though, name a single D&D campaign .. EVER .. where you level up from 1 through 20 in a single story arc.

I thought you guys wanted authentic D&D?


If we're talking table top D&D, indeed, almost never. If we're talking video games, Neverwinter Nights 2's official campaign included progression from 1st through 20th (typically rarely hit the cap, usually tapered off between 15-20, but it was available and functional).

I'm fine with this game capping at 10, but it is fun to be able to go into those high levels with a video game since it's, as you say, pretty darn rare to table top.

qhristoff #666546 17/04/20 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Seriously though, name a single D&D campaign .. EVER .. where you level up from 1 through 20 in a single story arc.

I thought you guys wanted authentic D&D?

Dungeon of the Mad Mage. Besides that, a video game may not necessarily be based on any campaign, or be based on several.
Also in most modern games even those based on Pnp rules allow maximum level.

Last edited by Danielbda; 17/04/20 09:15 PM.
MasterServo #666547 17/04/20 09:15 PM
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i dont get the point.
Why would you want the game to go to level 20?

You wont more CONTENT that way.
it means that the levels will be cheaper and less content in each level bracket overall.

Having more focus on fewer levels means a lot more detail.
not to mention that low level is where dnd works ebst anyway

MasterServo #666548 17/04/20 09:16 PM
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On Video games :

- Dark Sun Shattered Lands was lv 1 to 9
- Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager was 7 to 15.
- ToEE was 1 to 10
- BG1 was 1 to 9
- BG2:SoA Was 8 to 17
- BG2:ToB was epic level
- NWN1 was 1 to 20 and HOTU was epic level with lv cap = 40 (considered the best expansion BTW)
- NWN2 was 1 to 20 and MotB was epic
- Pathfinder Kingmaker was 1 to 20 (adapting many books)
- Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous will gonna be Mythic level(similar to D&D epic but different)

Keep in mind that if a module has lv cap = 10 and there are less players than recommended, the DM generally allow PCs to reach higher level.

> not to mention that low level is where dnd works ebst anyway


I disagree. Look to the most popular mods for ToEE; all of then raises the level cap.

On 5e, the difference between low to high level is much smaller than 3.5e or 2e.

A lv 20 sorcerer on BG2 with spell sequencer and 3 skull traps, can dealt 60d6 damage in a instant. 5e has no OHK spells, high level spells has his usage far more limited and the most iconic 3rd tier evocation on 3.5e and 2e deals 10d6 damage at lv 10. The most iconic 5th tier magic deals up to 15d6(cone of cold), on 5e, the difference got reduced to 6d8(fireball) VS 8d8(cone of cold).

With warriors, a lv 1 ranger compared to a lv 20 has only 4 base attack bonus (or proficiency bonus) less than a level 20 ranger. 4! This is the difference between a mortal who has reached the pinnacle of mortal achievement and a baby faced newbie who can barely hold a weapon is just 20% more chance to hit...

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 17/04/20 09:21 PM.
Sordak #666550 17/04/20 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
i dont get the point.
Why would you want the game to go to level 20?


Because high level characters with high level gear are cooler.

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