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Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? #666636
19/04/20 04:02 PM
19/04/20 04:02 PM
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Beeber Offline OP
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Level scaling or challenge scaling or enemy scaling, whatever you wanna call it. The one that Oblivion was hated for, basically.

If you don't know yet what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the enemies automatically adjusting their strength to your own strength.

So will BG3 have it?

Skyrim is a great game, but of all the RPGs I've played, it's really only my third favorite. A huge part of why it's not number one is it's level scaling. I like RPGs where you get rewarded for putting in the effort to level up.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #666638
19/04/20 04:23 PM
19/04/20 04:23 PM
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SorcererVictor Offline
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The game is chapter based. So i hope that no.

BG1/BG2 din't had it.

And Oblivion level scaling lead to bullet sponge enemies to a insane level. Everyone hates it.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #666639
19/04/20 05:26 PM
19/04/20 05:26 PM
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Between Madness & Insanity
Eguzky Offline
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I loved when a bandit was mugging you for 50 gold while wearing Glass Armor worth thousands, in TES. :P

Level scaling was a lazy way to do difficulty and lead to immersion breaking moments like the one I just mentioned.
It also meant you never FELT stronger, because as you got stronger, so did every single enemy.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Eguzky] #666640
19/04/20 05:37 PM
19/04/20 05:37 PM
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qhristoff Offline
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Originally Posted by Eguzky
I loved when a bandit was mugging you for 50 gold while wearing Glass Armor worth thousands, in TES. :P

Level scaling was a lazy way to do difficulty and lead to immersion breaking moments like the one I just mentioned.
It also meant you never FELT stronger, because as you got stronger, so did every single enemy.


lol I think it was someone else on this forum that posted this video: your comment about TES reminded me of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPN0qhSyWy8

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #666641
19/04/20 05:53 PM
19/04/20 05:53 PM
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I think it is unlikely, considering the game is to have only 10 lvl, and D:OSs give insight into what structure Larian favours.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667014
03/05/20 03:33 PM
03/05/20 03:33 PM
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Eli Offline
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If there is any level scaling, for enemies or items, I hope it'll be entirely optional (via gameplay settings).

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667027
04/05/20 08:28 AM
04/05/20 08:28 AM
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right behind you
Madscientist Offline

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Please no level scaling.
It is the reason why I never finished Oblivion.
After killing tons of demons I was unable to beat 2 goblins at once.
Looks like Oblivion had the motto: "The weaker the original enemy, the stronger it has to scale with level."
This completely ruined any fun and immersion.
Why do bandits hide in caves and attack travellers when they have deadric equipment that allows them to conquer the whole city or just buy a palace.

Larian had exp scaling in DD and D2, (exp gain depended on your lv vs enemy level), but I do not expect this in a DnD game with 10 levels.


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Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667036
04/05/20 02:41 PM
04/05/20 02:41 PM
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Danielbda Offline
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I rellay hope not. Higher difficulties should change encounters by adding more enemies or higher CR enemies. A reward for playing in higher difficulties would be nice as well, such as ganing more xp like in IWD.

Last edited by Danielbda; 04/05/20 02:45 PM.
Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Madscientist] #667037
04/05/20 02:45 PM
04/05/20 02:45 PM
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Danielbda Offline
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Originally Posted by Madscientist
Please no level scaling.
It is the reason why I never finished Oblivion.
After killing tons of demons I was unable to beat 2 goblins at once.
Looks like Oblivion had the motto: "The weaker the original enemy, the stronger it has to scale with level."
This completely ruined any fun and immersion.
Why do bandits hide in caves and attack travellers when they have deadric equipment that allows them to conquer the whole city or just buy a palace.

Larian had exp scaling in DD and D2, (exp gain depended on your lv vs enemy level), but I do not expect this in a DnD game with 10 levels.

Have you played Skyrim? Scalling in Oblivion is not as nearly as bad, because you have OP gear that gives you almost immunity to damage types, life steal, status effects against enemies etc.
In Skyrim playing on higher difficulties is only viable if you master the triumvirate of Alchemy, Smithing and Enchanting and craft your own gear, because quest rerwards almost 100% suck.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667038
04/05/20 02:56 PM
04/05/20 02:56 PM
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Emrikol Offline
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Level scaling might just be my most hated feature. Glad this game will not have it.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667120
07/05/20 07:26 PM
07/05/20 07:26 PM
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Nola Offline
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I really hope they don't add it in.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667153
09/05/20 12:42 AM
09/05/20 12:42 AM
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Razorback Offline
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I hope BG3 does not have challenge scaling.


Thanks for reading...

Razorback aka Daevin Aruth
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Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants, and debt is the money of slaves...
https://discord.gg/jxA5AvA
Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667163
09/05/20 02:26 PM
09/05/20 02:26 PM
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Gel214th Offline
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I hope the game adds this as an option. I would love to have a consistent challenge regardless of my character level across all zones and chapters. Also, I'd love to replay it in a New Game + style where I keep my level and powers and can move through the game with them.

I have done this with Pillars of Eternity 2 mod and it is fantastic fun. I don't miss actually leveling up at all, and it presents new and interesting ways to approach all the battles, even some of the earlier ones. Great stuff. At any rate, once the game is Moddable I'm sure level scaling would be one of the first mods created if it isn't included at launch. Which is a good tip that it should be hehe

https://www.nexusmods.com/divinityoriginalsin2definitiveedition/mods/132

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667164
09/05/20 02:35 PM
09/05/20 02:35 PM
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deathidge Offline
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Monster scaling really doesn't mesh well with D&D without being super immersion breaking, IMO. Would really enjoy being level 5-10 and a mere goblin is actually a challenge still? A kobold? D&D has a massive enough repertoire of monsters at every CR to avoid having to go the level-scaling route. I can't stand level scaling...you can never feel powerful even to the smallest weakest of monsters just because they scale with your level. To me, that's taken all the fun out of the game. I would much rather then substitute in higher CR monsters than scale low-level fodder.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: deathidge] #667167
09/05/20 04:13 PM
09/05/20 04:13 PM
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Gel214th Offline
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There is fun in playing quests you missed and finishing all the battles in five seconds because they pose no challenge due to you being over-levelled? A GM can deal with this easily by adjusting the monsters that make up the encounters. A game like BG3, not so much I'm thinking. Like I said, I'd like the option. Or for the game to be mod-friendly enough that it can be easily added.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667168
09/05/20 04:47 PM
09/05/20 04:47 PM
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_Vic_ Offline
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As @Gel214 said, challenge scaling exist in PNP 5e too, the DM is constantly adapting the CR of the enemies to match the power of the party, or the game will lose interest for the players, and combat became too one-sided.

That said if it´s made like in Bethesda videogames It can be frustrating, just as the others in this thread said. In most story-driven RPG you have the scaling because they calculate the max level you will have when reaching certain point in the story and plan the encounters accordingly, something that is not feasible in sandbox-y games like Skyrim or RDR. I assume that would not be the case in BG3

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667171
09/05/20 05:29 PM
09/05/20 05:29 PM
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Torque Offline
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Initially I was for a EL balance system that scale with the party level but after giving it some thought I dont think it would be great for a computer game. Some places should be off-limits simply by the fact that you cant get past the monsters, not invisible walls. If you scale everything with level you cant create an open world where the player is free to explore if you also want the player to progress through a story.

Also it doesnt make sense if you are level 3 and you meet the elite guard of the king and they're also level 3.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667173
09/05/20 08:48 PM
09/05/20 08:48 PM
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Bercon Offline

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Baldur's Gate 2 did have challenge scaling. You encountered different enemies in De'Arnise Keep and Firkraag's dungeons for example depending on your level.

If the game isn't very linear, then adjusting the enemies to match roughly your party might make sense. For example if you have 2 big quests to complete in order of your choosing, you might be over leveled for the other one after doing the first.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: _Vic_] #667176
09/05/20 09:14 PM
09/05/20 09:14 PM
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deathidge Offline
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
As @Gel214 said, challenge scaling exist in PNP 5e too, the DM is constantly adapting the CR of the enemies to match the power of the party, or the game will lose interest for the players, and combat became too one-sided.

That said if it´s made like in Bethesda videogames It can be frustrating, just as the others in this thread said. In most story-driven RPG you have the scaling because they calculate the max level you will have when reaching certain point in the story and plan the encounters accordingly, something that is not feasible in sandbox-y games like Skyrim or RDR. I assume that would not be the case in BG3


I've never played in a PnP campaign where the DM scaled a monsters CR. If the party is too high of a level for goblins, for example, they don't make standard goblins stronger, they add in higher CR monsters like ogres, worgs, hill giants, etc. That isn't the same challenge scaling we are talking about here. We're talking about the system like in Skyrim where ALL enemies are you level, whether they are elite guard or lowly peasants. The level scaling that BG3 SHOULD have is where, depending on the difficulty you choose when you start your game, they give you monsters of the CR that you picked. I don't want to see normal goblins at level 5 that are CR 5. If there is a goblin boss, or goblin shaman, that is stronger than a standard goblin that's cool-beans...they are. but not the scaling we are talking about here.

Re: Is this game gonna have "challenge scaling"? [Re: Beeber] #667178
09/05/20 09:27 PM
09/05/20 09:27 PM
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_Vic_ Offline
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Sometimes you have story-related fixed encounters with some creatures where you cannot change the creature type. If needed because the encounter would be too low/high for your party you buff the challenge rating of the encounter, not the creature type. Pretty sure you already found that in some PNP campaign you already played, you just don´t know it because it´s something that only the DM knows.

I mean, if you are supposed to raid a greenskin fortress to kill the goblin king you cannot change it and create a fortress full of lizardfolk and make the goblin king a beholder just because...

Last edited by _Vic_; 09/05/20 09:46 PM.
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