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Some requests about immersion and animations.
I do like much of what we've seen so far in the demos. My main concerns though are these:

All Actions look and sound like magic for some reason:
Even doing a simple sword swing attack such as the attack called "Pushing Attack", or shooting an arrow, or Dash, or jumping, has light effects and sounds that makes it sound like you are casting a magic spell. This is very immersion-breaking. Please please please make it so that the only Actions that feels and looks and sounds like magic, are actual magic spells and mystic abilities like psionics and so on.
Having all Actions look and sound like magic, makes the magic in the game feel that much more trivial in the feel of the animation. It makes everything just feel like "just another Ability like everything else", rather than magic and mystical abilities feeling like something special in comparrison to ordinary Skills and ordinary Actions.

Spellbook:
In pen and paper D&D and in Baldur's Gate 1-2, the spellbook is an actual book rather than a list or a table. A big part of roleplaying a Wizard is that they have an actual book with their spells in, that they memorize from. I noticed that you have implimented that books can be read like an actual book, where an actual book pops up on the screen. Which is awesome. It will be awesome if you would make it so that this also is the case with the spellbook please, rather than it being an unimmersive list or table, like we've so far seen it be in the demo? You can do the same as Baldur's Gate 1-2 did with regards to there being a spellbook for all arcane spells, and a scroll for all divine spells.

Casting from a scroll:
In Neverwinter Nights, there was finally a difference in animation between casting from a scroll or casting with a spellslot. Casting from a scroll made your character read from a scroll as casting animation. I noticed that in the last demo, when your character cast from a scroll, there was no difference in animation, nor in feeling. This would also really be nice to get changed.

Thank you.

Last edited by Morcar; 20/06/20 01:03 AM.
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+1

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I also agree with all that up

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Gotta be the voice of NO in this thread.

NO.

Stop demanding weaksauce animations, this is a good case of : peopl edont know what they want.
This realism circlejerk will only make the game look worse. and no ammount of realism will save that.

Look at kingdom come, or hell, skyrim. Westen games have for too long clung to a false sense of realism when it coems to meele attack animations.
But when you strike something, it doesnt FEEL like it looks.

it feels impactufll. and thats why in a game the animations should adher to the FEELING of striking something yourself, rather than how it looks when recorded on a camera.

the wording of your post aggrevates me eve more. I dont want any of that wizard wank. Magic should be impactfull and cool but yeah no, muggles dont get to feel powerfull.
Absoluteley not.

So no, i disagree. Fundamentally.
the animations are fine like the are. In fact. They should probably add even more screenshake and hitstop.
Make combat feel satisfying

Last edited by Sordak; 20/06/20 07:54 PM.
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i agree with everything that you said minus the sword swing.

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It's very debatable.

I really don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this. there is just different way that will please different people.

As for realism and immersion, first of : we're in a fantasy world with magic, differents races, planes of existences, dragons, magical beast and so on. You also have to take into account that an adventurer is not just a normal human being.
If you want to feel like your character is a normal joe, well, he should have 10 in all his stats, which is the commoner stats block.

When a character with 18 strenght is breaking a door, it should NOT look normal, IMO. It should look impressive and inhuman because that's what 18 str is.


It would be hard to make a game where every animation goes with the stats, races and class of a character.

Personaly, I was so happy to notice fall damage from one of those "epic" jump in the underdark. They already made so much in so little time, I'm just very impressed.



In a perfect world where they would have infinite time to make everything, I would agree that it would be cool if you could see a wizard using his material component when casting spells and everything like that. But, I mean, you realise how much work that is ?

It would already be amazing if all the spells in the books makes it into the games. We can't ask for too much.


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I want epic sounding & looking magic spells, screen shakes and body parts flying when a crit lands
Yes i want ritual scroll and memorized casting to all look different I want spells with out somatic components to look different than ones that do.
and I want the effects to scale with level and abilities
yes someone with 18+ str should be capable of impressive feats and look cool doing anything but i do want some realism I don't want effects animation coming off my a base attacks save those for crits or for action surge.
I'm thinking of a strong man competitions everyone one of the guys is doing something physical impossible for anyone else to even attempt its amazing to witness and mind boggling how they can move, lift, pull and carry the things that they do. They don't need to add any special graphics or highlights to make a 6 foot 6 tall man pulling 3 tanker cars impressive. It just is. Why can't the same be said for cutting a man in half with a sword? it happened because the character is strong and chooses to fight with a sword, no extra effect needed just a guy in two parts and maybe some gore. (if the sword is a flame tongue it will look pretty cool maybe even have cinders still on the body).
I think audio feedback the crunch of a weapon hitting the swish of a miss is fine for the base attack unless hasted then blur away
I think we all want feedback from the game that makes our actions even auto attack (cause we know fighters don't get much else in 5e) feel like they matter. but i don't want to see spell like effects on melee attacks in the game unless you are a paladin smiting or etc...
I think instead of having effects just because a character is strong might be the wrong way to go about more of these event x trigger cosmetic y like rolling to break down a door and beating the dc by 5 equals cool physical effect there by strong or smart or wise or dexterous characters are more likely to get the cool extra animations..

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Ideally, different actions should have different animations, preferably strongly indicative of the action, preferably with quite a short preamble. I'm sure that any animations that are generally annoying will be weeded out in EA.

The outcome of the animation should perhaps also indicate the outcome of the action. For example, a critical success with a melee weapon would result in a louder, more effective looking connection with the target, through to a critical miss that would result in no connection at all.

Camera shaking on hits is more of a first-person APRG expectation, that makes less sense in third-person, unless you are really affecting the whole environment, not just the attack target. There is no reason it couldn't be an option for each player to turn on if they want a more JRPG REALLY-BIG-SWORDS experience, as it has a no effect on the rendering, just jitters the camera position.

Real medieval combat was probably a lot more like a mass brawl than any game depiction. From what I've read, if you were armoured, the main priority was to stay on your feet ( or even better, your horse ), and if you were unarmoured, your main priority was to stay away from those who were armoured ( and still on their feet / horse ).

But that wouldn't make a particularly satisfying game experience for anyone.

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I don't think this should be a broad debate about fantasy, magic and medieval cultures.

In practice, Dash is an Action we might do very often and it is just your character running/sprinting instead of doing other Actions. I prefer the animation for that move be more streamlined (faster) and not look like the character is emanating a burst of light. It is not one of the various movement spells nor spell-like abilities. And I find it would be more immersive for Dash to be a sprinting body-language type of animation that goes faster than the current animation.

nb : you do not need to respond. The dev will judge what is best for what they want.

Last edited by Baraz; 20/06/20 10:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sordak

Stop demanding weaksauce animations, this is a good case of : peopl edont know what they want.
This realism circlejerk will only make the game look worse. and no ammount of realism will save that.

Look at kingdom come, or hell, skyrim. Westen games have for too long clung to a false sense of realism when it coems to meele attack animations.
But when you strike something, it doesnt FEEL like it looks.

it feels impactufll. and thats why in a game the animations should adher to the FEELING of striking something yourself, rather than how it looks when recorded on a camera.

the wording of your post aggrevates me eve more. I dont want any of that wizard wank. Magic should be impactfull and cool but yeah no, muggles dont get to feel powerfull.
Absoluteley not.

So no, i disagree. Fundamentally.
the animations are fine like the are. In fact. They should probably add even more screenshake and hitstop.
Make combat feel satisfying


If you want to see realism in western games that makes melee more impressive than the magic in the same game, look at Dragon Age Origins. Sure a Mage could cast Firestorm or whatever it was called, but besides that the magic effects were overall not as impressivelooking as the animations of the Melee abilities. And the melee execution animations were absolutely epic and cinematic. Like crawling up an Ogre to impale it while it tumbles over. Just because something looks realistic, doesn't mean that it isn't every bit as epic to watch as a magic effect can be. It's just a different sort of epic feel. You could also look at the melee animations of Shogun Total War 2, eventhough that's not an RPG of course.

And the non-Wizards can also have magic abilities and magic effects. In 5E there is a magic-oriented subclass of each class. You can have a Fighter or a Barbarian that uses magic if you want. And if you choose a purly physical damage oriented class, there will still be magic weapons like a flaming or talking sword, and magic items and artefacts, aswell as other magical/mystical/psionic abilities like certain racial abilities, certain divine or magical gifts, and certain class abilities.
That's not what I'm suggesting against.
What I'm saying is a normal ability like a normal weapon attack with a normal Longsword for example, or the very ordinary thing of dashing/sprinting foward, shouldn't look like magic, because that will make the feel of that magic weapon that you found, feel that much less special. Like there will be a nearly unnoticeable difference in feel if both feel magical. If everything looks and feels like a similar thing, then the feel of the differences and the atmosphere of it, will be trivialised.
And you can still feel equally as epic with an ordinary Longsword with zero magical particle effects happening while you swing your sword in different combos, and have different "fatality"-like moments, as a Wizard can have by casting a Fireball. It's just a very different feel to the epicness, which creates a diverse amounts of ways to feel being awesome.

Anyways, you seem to prefer when games become Manga-like or Anime-like, whereas I prefer when things become western-like. I imagine you probably prefer the animations of Dragon Age Inquisition over Dragon Age Origins. And that's fine, we're fundamentally different in what we find awesome then.


Originally Posted by Scrubbydoo

As for realism and immersion, first of : we're in a fantasy world with magic, differents races, planes of existences, dragons, magical beast and so on. You also have to take into account that an adventurer is not just a normal human being.
If you want to feel like your character is a normal joe, well, he should have 10 in all his stats, which is the commoner stats block.

When a character with 18 strenght is breaking a door, it should NOT look normal, IMO. It should look impressive and inhuman because that's what 18 str is.

In a perfect world where they would have infinite time to make everything, I would agree that it would be cool if you could see a wizard using his material component when casting spells and everything like that. But, I mean, you realise how much work that is ?

It would already be amazing if all the spells in the books makes it into the games. We can't ask for too much.



18 is the genius level of Human capacity. 19 and above is the levels beyond human natural capability, which is why Elves can start with Dexterity 19. Or that's atleast how it was in AD&D. So a fighter with 18 Strength would still be at the human level of strength. He would be at the level of strength of someone like Arnold Swartzenegger in his prime. Sure he can break down a door in a super impressive way, but there wouldn't be magical particle effects and beams of Light happening around him while he did it. And that's also how it is in Dungeons and Dragons Pen and Paper. Just because you are extremely strong at 18 Strength, doesn't mean that when you lift something heavy that some heavenly Halluja sound effect with Light beams happen. Not unless there is a supernatural reason for such effect to happen, like such as a divinely bestowed favor, gift or blessing, or a racial Ability or an actual magical ability, or something from a magic item.
But it's still very impressive-looking of someone to break down a door with relative ease, particle effects or not!

And I completely agree that it would be amazing to see material components animated in while casting spells. And I really do hope that they do this with those spells that they have said will have material component requirements.
I don't think it's too much to be asking for a simple scroll-reading animation to be added to the game when it's already been done in Neverwinter Nights. But it's not a gamebreaker of course. But I'm still suggesting it because now is the time to give suggestions in order to help the devs make the game as good as it can get.

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Dash is the only thign where you people actually have a point since dash is literaly not doign anyhting other than running fast.

>Muh anime
Opinion discarded.
Youre just another salty caster only player that wants martials to have floaty animations for reasons that are beyond me.

Right now, the melee animations feel a bit like Dragons Dogma. which is exactly what they SHOULD feel like.

its funny that everyone prasies Dragons Dogma and Dark Souls for its melee animations but at the same time screeches that this looks like "Magic".
no. its not magic. its an artisitc renditin of the feeling of impact.

Last edited by Sordak; 21/06/20 08:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Dash is the only thign where you people actually have a point since dash is literaly not doign anyhting other than running fast.

>Muh anime
Opinion discarded.
Youre just another salty caster only player that wants martials to have floaty animations for reasons that are beyond me.

Right now, the melee animations feel a bit like Dragons Dogma. which is exactly what they SHOULD feel like.

its funny that everyone prasies Dragons Dogma and Dark Souls for its melee animations but at the same time screeches that this looks like "Magic".
no. its not magic. its an artisitc renditin of the feeling of impact.


That argument you made against Dash just now fits just as much with abilities like Pushing Attack. It's not doing anything other than swinging a weapon.
If you think I am being salty or angry here, then you haven't read my posts right. If I wrote it in an angry way, then my posts would look more like yours.
I actually like how Dragon's Dogma looks in animations. I would prefer less screenshake and hitstop. But besides that, I think the melee animations in Dragon's Dogma was great. And unlike some modern RPGs, twohanded weapons actually had weight to them during swings in Dragon's Dogma (I really don't like seeing a twohanded weapon be swung around as if it weighed the same as a feather, which I why I couldn't enjoy playing a twohanded melee character in Dragon Age 2). I don't see any magical Light effects during the normal weapon abilities in Dragon's Dogma, unlike what we've seen so far from Baldur's Gate 3.
The empact feeling wasn't my main point about that however. It was the magical light and colour effects happening around the character while charging up the ability. It's fair that you like that, but to me that makes me want to play melee characters less.

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My problem with dash is that the character plays an animation before dashing. that implies that the character casts a spell. You dont wave your arms around when you prepare to sprint.
if they changed the animation to crouching down and preparing to sprint, thatd be much beter.

However, with the pushing attack, the animation plays during the attack, thus it accentuates the attack.
If the dash action had some swirly lins when running to represent you running fast doesnt bother me.

>Magic light effects
no, there arent any magical light effects in dragoms dogma, there are however effects playng.
Its swing effects, play the game again and look at any of the Warrior special abilities. The swings blurr, theres an impact animation.
Theres also the charging animation for arc of deliverence.

BG3 basically does the same only slightly turned up. Meanwhile compared to games like Guild Wars 2, BG3 is pretty tame.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
its not magic. its an artisitc renditin of the feeling of impact.


You can easily create an impactful hit with sound, animation and blood (and maybe at times a very minor effect), without making it look like a magical spell. Source: I'm a game designer.

Floaty melee animations can really take away from the overall feel of combat. I good example of how not to do it is Dragon Age: Origins, which while a fantastic game, had surprisingly unsatisfying melee impacts. Personally, I want hits to be a bit forceful, but adding generic over the top particle effects to every melee skill does little in terms of achieving that. Instead, it tends to blur everything together, satiate the player's overall effect-tolerance, and hurt the wonder of actual magic in the game.

I urge Larian not to underestimate the impact this can have on the longtime enjoyment of combat for a lot of us. Let magic be magic.

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Originally Posted by Exclusif
You can easily create an impactful hit with sound, animation and blood (and maybe at times a very minor effect), without making it look like a magical spell. Source: I'm a game designer.

Floaty melee animations can really take away from the overall feel of combat. I good example of how not to do it is Dragon Age: Origins, which while a fantastic game, had surprisingly unsatisfying melee impacts. Personally, I want hits to be a bit forceful, but adding generic over the top particle effects to every melee skill does little in terms of achieving that. Instead, it tends to blur everything together, satiate the player's overall effect-tolerance, and hurt the wonder of actual magic in the game.

I urge Larian not to underestimate the impact this can have on the longtime enjoyment of combat for a lot of us. Let magic be magic.


All of this is a very good point. It's a terrible idea to make everything flashy and exciting, because in the end it results in NOTHING being flashy and exciting.

That's especially important if you roll a 1 for damage. Oh boy that super-awesome flashy hit did a whole 3 damage! If you want to make actions and attacks more exciting, save if for when it actually IS special. If you land a critical hit, or you get a very high damage roll, like say, 70%+ of the maximum possible damage, then do the flashy thing. If it's a critical hit which does more than 70%+ of the normal base damage, make it even flashier, because that's rarer.

But don't make every attack and every action special and flashy.

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you say that but somehow im having my doubts.
hence why games like Dark Souls, For Honor and Dragons Dogma, aka those games known for their impactfull melee combat, seem to do it the way i suggest rather than the way you say works just as well

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When you write a story and your main character behaves exactly like the guy next door, the story grows stale quickly. Stories about heroes need characters who do more than you or I could do. The point of realism in the game is: to much can take the soul out of the fighting. A special move of a matial character doesn't need to look like the average anime superhero, but it doesn't hurt either if this special move looks way cooler like a common slash with a sword.

A martial attack should not look like magic or psionics, I agree, but too much realism hurts the combat feeling of a game as well. A little bling-bling might help. I liked, what I saw so far.

But: it is all a matter of taste anyway. Perhaps there should be a poll for this after some time of early access, so we learn which way is enjoyed most.

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+1 I concur with the OP

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I can deal with a slight lessening on some things, but I very much disagree that they should look as mundane as simply running or making standard weapon attacks. Visual feedback is super important. Dash is something, especially, that I see some people suggesting that they completely remove all effects for, but I think its really important that players are able to tell that another creature dashed without inferring it from general 5e knowledge or reading logs.

Things like weapon trails, impact effects, and air distortions can successfully convey a physicality to the move compared to magic, while still allowing the special actions to be easily discernible from standard attacks or movement.

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which is a rather obvious lession game developers learned for a while now

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