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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: May 2020
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I find it odd that people say a game does or does not look like Baldur's Gate. Any game, no matter who the developer is, would be using modern graphics and technology so there won't be hand-drawn, 2-D, 8-bit Infinity Engine graphics or UI.
If it wasn't Larian, it would be Obsidion, Owlcat, or maybe none of them and we would't be getting a sequel because Wizards of the Coast would say no to each and every one of them. If it was one of them, it would still be following D&D 5E rules because that's what Wizards of the Coast want.
I honestly feel if another company was making BG3 the complaints wouldn't be "they're just remaking Divinity" but instead would be "They're trying to copy Divinity!" Obsidian and Owlcat games (whatever they're TB or not, or both) are way closer to what BG1/2 feels and looked like and they also use more modern graphics and technology. I don't think lot of people asked for 2-D and 8-bit infinity engine graphics or UI, even if that's something lots of you seems to think. I guess if one of them was chosen by WoTC, whatever the rules, no one would even think about DoS. But they're NOT D&D 5E, which Wizards of the Coast wanted BG3 to be. D&D 5E has class features that are reliant on a TB combat system. The entire system would have to be reworked from the ground up for practically every single class to move away from a TB combat system. Which means that it would no longer be D&D 5E. Maybe someone could have made it amazing, maybe not, but as of right now Divinity: Original Sin 2 is the current king of the crpgs, Obsidion and Owlcat have acknowledged that they relied too much on the nostalgia train. Pillars of Eternity 2 had a lot of kickstarter support but flopped in sales. Pathfinder: Kingmaker sales went up AFTER a TB mod was made, then they patched in TB mode because of its popularity. I honestly think if Wizards had gone with either of them, it would still be TB, because DOS2 did so much better than either P:K or PoE2.
"I used my last magic poo to check in on my daughter." Scanlan Shorthalt.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2013
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Again.
no.
Im not gonna let this slide.
Pathfinder Kingmaker looks less like an infinity engine game than BG3 does.
Im not letting this slide on principle.
you people need to stop repeating untrue nonsense.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2020
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I find it odd that people say a game does or does not look like Baldur's Gate. Any game, no matter who the developer is, would be using modern graphics and technology so there won't be hand-drawn, 2-D, 8-bit Infinity Engine graphics or UI.
If it wasn't Larian, it would be Obsidion, Owlcat, or maybe none of them and we would't be getting a sequel because Wizards of the Coast would say no to each and every one of them. If it was one of them, it would still be following D&D 5E rules because that's what Wizards of the Coast want.
I honestly feel if another company was making BG3 the complaints wouldn't be "they're just remaking Divinity" but instead would be "They're trying to copy Divinity!" Obsidian and Owlcat games (whatever they're TB or not, or both) are way closer to what BG1/2 feels and looked like and they also use more modern graphics and technology. I don't think lot of people asked for 2-D and 8-bit infinity engine graphics or UI, even if that's something lots of you seems to think. I guess if one of them was chosen by WoTC, whatever the rules, no one would even think about DoS. But they're NOT D&D 5E, which Wizards of the Coast wanted BG3 to be. D&D 5E has class features that are reliant on a TB combat system. The entire system would have to be reworked from the ground up for practically every single class to move away from a TB combat system. Which means that it would no longer be D&D 5E. Maybe someone could have made it amazing, maybe not, but as of right now Divinity: Original Sin 2 is the current king of the crpgs, Obsidion and Owlcat have acknowledged that they relied too much on the nostalgia train. Pillars of Eternity 2 had a lot of kickstarter support but flopped in sales. Pathfinder: Kingmaker sales went up AFTER a TB mod was made, then they patched in TB mode because of its popularity. I honestly think if Wizards had gone with either of them, it would still be TB, because DOS2 did so much better than either P:K or PoE2. Yes - Larian had the experience and the success with an already working TB game. I think WotC is very careful about wanting BG3 and other D&D games to reflect back on the tabletop experience. Larian also has the sales history and now a larger fanbase. Though I really enjoyed P:K more than DOS, I don't think there was any chance of WotC going with Owlcat or Obsidian.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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Pathfinder: Kingmaker sales went up AFTER a TB mod was made, then they patched in TB mode because of its popularity. This is blatantly false. To the contrary, the general consensus is that P:Km demonstrated that there still remains a strong market for RTwP cRPGs. DOS2 did so much better than either P:K or PoE2. And DA:I did even more better than D:OS2. In fact, the sales gap between D:OS2 and P:Km is small compared with the sales gap between DA:I and D:OS2. And don't even think to try and tell me DA:I doesn't count for blah blah reasons. It absolutely does count as a cRPG in the same genre.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2020
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DOS2 did so much better than either P:K or PoE2. And DA:I did even more better than D:OS2. In fact, the sales gap between D:OS2 and P:Km is small compared with the sales gap between DA:I and D:OS2. And don't even think to try and tell me DA:I doesn't count for blah blah reasons. It absolutely does count as a cRPG in the same genre. Sorry to interrupt but this is the third time someone mentioned the sales of DoS2 in two days(the other two not from this forum) From where did you guys get the sales of DoS2? Did they mention it? Because I can it find anything about it
Last edited by Human; 10/09/20 03:01 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
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I find it odd that people say a game does or does not look like Baldur's Gate. Any game, no matter who the developer is, would be using modern graphics and technology so there won't be hand-drawn, 2-D, 8-bit Infinity Engine graphics or UI.
If it wasn't Larian, it would be Obsidion, Owlcat, or maybe none of them and we would't be getting a sequel because Wizards of the Coast would say no to each and every one of them. If it was one of them, it would still be following D&D 5E rules because that's what Wizards of the Coast want.
I honestly feel if another company was making BG3 the complaints wouldn't be "they're just remaking Divinity" but instead would be "They're trying to copy Divinity!" Obsidian and Owlcat games (whatever they're TB or not, or both) are way closer to what BG1/2 feels and looked like and they also use more modern graphics and technology. I don't think lot of people asked for 2-D and 8-bit infinity engine graphics or UI, even if that's something lots of you seems to think. I guess if one of them was chosen by WoTC, whatever the rules, no one would even think about DoS. But they're NOT D&D 5E, which Wizards of the Coast wanted BG3 to be. D&D 5E has class features that are reliant on a TB combat system. The entire system would have to be reworked from the ground up for practically every single class to move away from a TB combat system. Which means that it would no longer be D&D 5E. Maybe someone could have made it amazing, maybe not, but as of right now Divinity: Original Sin 2 is the current king of the crpgs, Obsidion and Owlcat have acknowledged that they relied too much on the nostalgia train. Pillars of Eternity 2 had a lot of kickstarter support but flopped in sales. Pathfinder: Kingmaker sales went up AFTER a TB mod was made, then they patched in TB mode because of its popularity. I honestly think if Wizards had gone with either of them, it would still be TB, because DOS2 did so much better than either P:K or PoE2. Can you please explain me how you think the sales of a game is defined by it's graphics and UI ? Because that's what we (you) were talking about and what you were answering to. Stay focus.
Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/09/20 03:29 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2020
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I'll play the EA.
I absolutely don't want a "copy" of the older BG.
I really love many fresh and interresting mecanics of DoS1/2 but when I hear about BG3/Larian, I really hoped the game will meet their awesome mecanics with the experience Baldur's Gate was.
Amen!
Last edited by Gt27mustang; 10/09/20 03:36 PM.
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veteran
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DOS2 did so much better than either P:K or PoE2. And DA:I did even more better than D:OS2. In fact, the sales gap between D:OS2 and P:Km is small compared with the sales gap between DA:I and D:OS2. And don't even think to try and tell me DA:I doesn't count for blah blah reasons. It absolutely does count as a cRPG in the same genre. Sorry to interrupt but this is the third time someone mentioned the sales of DoS2 in two days(the other two not from this forum) From where did you guys get the sales of DoS2? Did they mention it? Because I can it find anything about it I do not know the exact sales, but DoS2 is over a million copies worldwide, with a revenue of more than 85 million. https://wccftech.com/divinity-original-sin-2-85m-revenue-2017/
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DOS2 did so much better than either P:K or PoE2. And DA:I did even more better than D:OS2. In fact, the sales gap between D:OS2 and P:Km is small compared with the sales gap between DA:I and D:OS2. And don't even think to try and tell me DA:I doesn't count for blah blah reasons. It absolutely does count as a cRPG in the same genre. Sorry to interrupt but this is the third time someone mentioned the sales of DoS2 in two days(the other two not from this forum) From where did you guys get the sales of DoS2? Did they mention it? Because I can it find anything about it I do not know the exact sales, but DoS2 is over a million copies worldwide, with a revenue of more than 85 million. https://wccftech.com/divinity-original-sin-2-85m-revenue-2017/That article states the 85 million was the revenue for 2017, at least as far as the title says ("Divinity: Original Sin 2 Generated $85M in Revenue Last Year According To SuperData Research." The article is dated Jan 30th 2018).
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veteran
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Back on track
the Infinity engine UI is awfull. Blatantly.
It's dated. Takes too much space and covers too much of the screen. U shape isn't necessary with higher resolution screens. Still, there is some functionality I wish Larian would borrow - or even better, from updated PoE2 design. I doesn't need to look the same. Just let me play the game, without having to spend 10 minutes sorting and assigning skills and items to the hot bar. The old IE UI was beautiful but does not cut it for modern videogame standards (unless for mobile apps). Not only that, three clicks to cast a spell? the space for multiclass habs was a mess ( cleric-thieves, everyone?), etc. I think a retro skin would be salvageable, but a game with (somewhat) complex rules needs an UI that handles lot of interact and combat options and also offers info without cover too much screen. About customization, I prefer just the opposite: I want to be able to customize the bar to my liking for easy access to the skills/spells/items I want. In games that handle that automatically, like Dragon Age or DoS, my action bar is usually a mess and I like to keep it tidy and functional if possible.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2020
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Yes, and this is the only thing I know DoS2 sold over 1 million copies in six weeks and generated $85M in revenue That is it and that is all from the first month of 2018! which is like 3-4 months from the release of DoS2 But now we are in Sept 2020 So I thought with all the mention of DoS2 sales, maybe there was another source(recently) that I have overlooked
Last edited by Human; 10/09/20 05:13 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2020
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When I went digging recently, I found this site....while it doesn't delve into any sales revenue figures, it estimates the total number of people who've purchased/played DOS2 at 2.7 mill as it relates to Steam tracking (which doesn't include GoG/other PC sources, nor console sales on the 3 platforms there): https://playtracker.net/insight/game/1067
“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self control to be understanding and forgiving.â€---Dale Carnegie.
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member
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Joined: Aug 2014
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I find it odd that people say a game does or does not look like Baldur's Gate. Any game, no matter who the developer is, would be using modern graphics and technology so there won't be hand-drawn, 2-D, 8-bit Infinity Engine graphics or UI.
If it wasn't Larian, it would be Obsidion, Owlcat, or maybe none of them and we would't be getting a sequel because Wizards of the Coast would say no to each and every one of them. If it was one of them, it would still be following D&D 5E rules because that's what Wizards of the Coast want.
I honestly feel if another company was making BG3 the complaints wouldn't be "they're just remaking Divinity" but instead would be "They're trying to copy Divinity!" Obsidian and Owlcat games (whatever they're TB or not, or both) are way closer to what BG1/2 feels and looked like and they also use more modern graphics and technology. I don't think lot of people asked for 2-D and 8-bit infinity engine graphics or UI, even if that's something lots of you seems to think. I guess if one of them was chosen by WoTC, whatever the rules, no one would even think about DoS. But they're NOT D&D 5E, which Wizards of the Coast wanted BG3 to be. D&D 5E has class features that are reliant on a TB combat system. The entire system would have to be reworked from the ground up for practically every single class to move away from a TB combat system. Which means that it would no longer be D&D 5E. Maybe someone could have made it amazing, maybe not, but as of right now Divinity: Original Sin 2 is the current king of the crpgs, Obsidion and Owlcat have acknowledged that they relied too much on the nostalgia train. Pillars of Eternity 2 had a lot of kickstarter support but flopped in sales. Pathfinder: Kingmaker sales went up AFTER a TB mod was made, then they patched in TB mode because of its popularity. I honestly think if Wizards had gone with either of them, it would still be TB, because DOS2 did so much better than either P:K or PoE2. I dont understand what version of D&D has to do what the game looks like. If PF:K ran 5E it would look identical except for some minor UI adjustments.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2020
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I would pick the Divinity Engine over Unity engine used in Pathfinder:Kingmaker, Tyranny and Pillars of Eternity 100% of the time.
I'm not sure if it's the engine or the developers creating the games in them but every game I've played with the Unity engine had garbage optimization, controls felt clunky and God... the loading screens were horrendous.... Pillars of Eternity was an enjoyable game but the loading screens, especially in multi-floored buildings completely wrecked my immersion. I also felt the worlds were too small, combining that with the constant loading screens made me feel disconnected with the world whereas Divinity Original Sin 1/2 had a (semi) open world experience that not only felt bigger than the other games it also was an immersive experience.
I'd rather see the developers work together in the Divinity Engine, building a story and perfecting it, than having to deal with another poorly optimized buggy game created in Unity.
Last edited by Freekster; 10/09/20 10:32 PM.
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Duchess of Gorgombert
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Duchess of Gorgombert
Joined: May 2010
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The old IE UI was beautiful but does not cut it for modern videogame standards (unless for mobile apps). Not only that, three clicks to cast a spell? the space for multiclass habs was a mess ( cleric-thieves, everyone?), etc.
I think a retro skin would be salvageable, but a game with (somewhat) complex rules needs an UI that handles lot of interact and combat options and also offers info without cover too much screen.
Given the feedback about changing the UI in DOS2, I would hope that this time round it'll be fully moddable. I have no idea whether or not this will be the case, but it'd certainly be a nice-to-have.
J'aime le fromage.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: May 2020
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I find it odd that people say a game does or does not look like Baldur's Gate. Any game, no matter who the developer is, would be using modern graphics and technology so there won't be hand-drawn, 2-D, 8-bit Infinity Engine graphics or UI.
If it wasn't Larian, it would be Obsidion, Owlcat, or maybe none of them and we would't be getting a sequel because Wizards of the Coast would say no to each and every one of them. If it was one of them, it would still be following D&D 5E rules because that's what Wizards of the Coast want.
I honestly feel if another company was making BG3 the complaints wouldn't be "they're just remaking Divinity" but instead would be "They're trying to copy Divinity!" Obsidian and Owlcat games (whatever they're TB or not, or both) are way closer to what BG1/2 feels and looked like and they also use more modern graphics and technology. I don't think lot of people asked for 2-D and 8-bit infinity engine graphics or UI, even if that's something lots of you seems to think. I guess if one of them was chosen by WoTC, whatever the rules, no one would even think about DoS. But they're NOT D&D 5E, which Wizards of the Coast wanted BG3 to be. D&D 5E has class features that are reliant on a TB combat system. The entire system would have to be reworked from the ground up for practically every single class to move away from a TB combat system. Which means that it would no longer be D&D 5E. Maybe someone could have made it amazing, maybe not, but as of right now Divinity: Original Sin 2 is the current king of the crpgs, Obsidion and Owlcat have acknowledged that they relied too much on the nostalgia train. Pillars of Eternity 2 had a lot of kickstarter support but flopped in sales. Pathfinder: Kingmaker sales went up AFTER a TB mod was made, then they patched in TB mode because of its popularity. I honestly think if Wizards had gone with either of them, it would still be TB, because DOS2 did so much better than either P:K or PoE2. I dont understand what version of D&D has to do what the game looks like. If PF:K ran 5E it would look identical except for some minor UI adjustments. Aside from the character and monster models in the Monster Manual looking exactly like what has been shown off so far, not much, but BG3 is being made from the same engine as DOS2, which will likely be have enough changes at the time of final release so I fail to see the point of complaining about it now. Aside from aesthetics in a few graphics and assets, nothing about BG3 and DOS 2 are remotely similar. In UI, in-game mechanics, setting and lore or characters. I look at the mechanics and story of a game a lot more than I look at graphics or UI until it gets closer to final release. Any issues I may have in the early access, I can report to Larian and be done with it. I'm not expecting a finished product, or even the graphics as it stands now to be the final graphics. I can look at DOS2 footage on youtube from early access and boot it up and play it now and see huge differences in graphics, gameplay, UI and other features. If Owlcat were making it, and used the same engine for BG3 as they did for Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and it went into early access, I expect we'd have the same complaints. "It looks too much like Pathfinder Kingmaker. They are clearly using the Baldur's Gate name to do a quick cash-grab." Same is true for Obisidion and if they used Pillars of Eternity's engine. Let the finished product be the metric we base the game off of, not pre-release, beta footage and gameplay that will change as development continues. Remember, Pathfinder is an offshoot of D&D, based off of edition 3.5, so monster models in Pathfinder would be entirely reliant on its version of D&D, and different from earlier or later versions.
"I used my last magic poo to check in on my daughter." Scanlan Shorthalt.
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The UI already changed from the video today and is looking little better
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2018
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The UI already changed from the video today and is looking little better I am deeply amused that for the entirety of this UI debate the UI being debated was already obsolete and changed. 😂 The new one is a big improvement.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2017
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ED: Yeah, the UI really changed. Seems the other one was a placeholder. [quote=Maximuuus][quote=Dragon_Master]I find it odd that people say a game does or does not look like Baldur's Gate. Any game, no matter who the developer is, would be using modern graphics and technology so there won't be hand-drawn, 2-D, 8-bit Infinity Engine graphics or UI.
If it wasn't Larian, it would be Obsidion, Owlcat, or maybe none of them and we would't be getting a sequel because Wizards of the Coast would say no to each and every one of them. If it was one of them, it would still be following D&D 5E rules because that's what Wizards of the Coast want.
I honestly feel if another company was making BG3 the complaints wouldn't be "they're just remaking Divinity" but instead would be "They're trying to copy Divinity!" I don't understand what version of D&D has to do what the game looks like. If PF:K ran 5E it would look identical except for some minor UI adjustments. I respectfully disagree. The Character and creature design, armour, weapon, etc and possibly the world would be different because Paizo´s pathfinder has a very (very, very, very very very) different style in the artwork than D&D, and, like in any edition, the artwork changes with every installment of the game. The setting would determine the looks of the world. It´s not the same playing in the lush forests with the proud knights of Lastwall in PF1e than in the dark, undead infested lands of Lastwall in PF2e, the same the game look very different if we´re playing in the Sword coast, the snowy mountains of Icewind Dale or in the plane city of Sigil or the gothic-oriented lands of Ravenloft. Also, different combat mechanics and rules need different UI. Not counting the fundamental differences there are with the way they do things in Owlcat and Larian, something @Sordak already exposed, that also would make a D&D game made by Owlcat look distinct
[quote=Sordak]
I love Pathfinder Kingmaker, i love it for one particular reason: Low(er)poly Models with Hand drawn textures.
You know what that DOESNT look like? Baldurs Gate.
Infinity engine games are the exact opposit of that, youd know that if youd be in any way interrested in the process of how this stuff gets made.
The infinity engines sprites were pre-rendered.
that means that they could use higher fidelity 3D than any PC at that time cold render in real-time and turn it into sprites. Some of the infinity engine stuff might be Handdrawn, im looking at IWD 1 here but i might be wrong.
Either way for readabilitys sake, The infinity engine games featured "high poly" base meshes with limited colour schemes to make them easier to read. So youd have relativeley big surfaces with the same "colour" , only variations in shading that was rendered.
Pathfinder Kingmaker is the exact opposit.
it uses Low poly (by todays standards) 3D models but hand paints the shadows on it. Lots of Kingmaker models look a bit like a beautifull mess when you look at em from a zoomed out perspective, when you zoom in you see the intricacies of the textures, some realy nice colour blending going on, realy neat hand painted shadows.
Not only is the process the opposit of one another, the stylistic choices are the opposite aswell.
Baldurs Gate and infinity Engine games go through readiability but high "fidelity" before baking it into sprites. Meanwhile Kingmaker is more like expertly painted warhammer miniatures.
Larian, with its appeal to photorealism, is much closer to the original Art direction of the infinity engine.
that is high fidelity 3D with easily readable colours and photorealistic palettes that leave the colour variation to the in engine shading.
etc etc So, If they want to make a faithful representation of the TT game the videogame is based to, the edition and the TT game would make the game look very different indeed.
Last edited by _Vic_; 11/09/20 05:56 AM.
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I am deeply amused that for the entirety of this UI debate the UI being debated was already obsolete and changed. 😂
The new one is a big improvement.
Yes, and it will more likely change even further. Still, if players express their worries then Larian can address those, if they find it appropriate. If D:OS2 UI was blameless I wouldn't worry, but I had quite a few issues with it, and I would like those to be addressed in BG3.
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