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R&D + Sensitivity Readers #675466
22/09/20 12:27 AM
22/09/20 12:27 AM
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MCPolecat Offline OP
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As one who lost their community of D&D playing nerds with WotC's Adventurer's League, I am incredibly eager to experience D&D 5th Edition through the digital experience of PC gaming. There is a part of me that is worried about the state of game development as an industry and the role of qualitative research within the development process given the number of creatives working hard in a collaborative setting. The tabletop RPG has long been the most queer friendly gaming experience as the rules came down to whatever best serves the group. Dragon Heist and the upcoming Tasha's Cauldron of Everything represent WotC responding to research and criticism into the state of D&D today. With Beamdog's Enhanced Edition of BG, Dorn was a reasonable shot at opening up the world to frames of desire beyond the normative experience of the original.

On the level of narrative development, I was wondering how Larian handles the sheer multiplicity of experiences required in gaming. The fiction literature community makes use of professional sensitivity readers to provide development criticism of how a narrative responds to the representation of marginalized communities. There is also a sizable community of game studies scholars researching games and communities focused on gender, race, and sexuality. With a game as big as BGIII with a property as big as D&D, my concerns are primarily circulating around diverse voices and experiences that are particularly paramount for me. A part of me is worried that such research and editorial work is not standard practice in game development and with everything else involved in development, such concerns do not get addressed because it is not a developmental priority.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675474
22/09/20 04:23 AM
22/09/20 04:23 AM
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Raze Offline

Larian Studios
Raze  Offline

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The gaming community has generally been very open and inclusive, since before that phrase became a buzzword.
There are people working at Larian from all over the world, with many different backgrounds and experiences.
Early Access should provide better feedback than any special interest focus group.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Raze] #675481
22/09/20 05:00 AM
22/09/20 05:00 AM
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Warlocke Offline
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Originally Posted by Raze

The gaming community has generally been very open and inclusive


I want to live in your timeline.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Warlocke] #675484
22/09/20 05:15 AM
22/09/20 05:15 AM
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Raze Offline

Larian Studios
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Were there any qualifications required to join the forum? Has anyone challenged anything you've posted on the basis of any inalienable characteristic, or even cared about that?
In high school in your experience were gamers the exclusive clique and anyone could join the jocks and cool kids? That wasn't the case back when parents were being warned that playing D&D probably meant their children had joined a satanic cult.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Raze] #675487
22/09/20 05:19 AM
22/09/20 05:19 AM
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Warlocke Offline
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Originally Posted by Raze

Were there any qualifications required to join the forum? Has anyone challenged anything you've posted on the basis of any inalienable characteristic?
In high school in your experience were gamers the exclusive clique and anyone could join the jocks and cool kids? That wasn't the case back when parents were being warned that playing D&D probably meant their kids had joined a satanic cult.


My experience with lots of gamers online has been a lot of casual racism and misogyny, and I don’t think I’m alone in that.

Edit: I’m going to expand this to include unwarranted hostility and immaturity.

This forum generally isn’t so bad for the most part, but we weren’t talking about this forum but the broader gaming community in aggregate. And I wouldn’t even go so far as to say most gamers engage in puerile behavior. Buuut, too often have I seen somebody start to say terrible things and then most everyone else just let’s it happen and pretends not to hear or pretends that it doesn’t matter, and I don’t call that an inclusive community. Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by Warlocke; 22/09/20 06:12 AM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Warlocke] #675488
22/09/20 05:23 AM
22/09/20 05:23 AM
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Iamblitzwing Offline
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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Raze

Were there any qualifications required to join the forum? Has anyone challenged anything you've posted on the basis of any inalienable characteristic?
In high school in your experience were gamers the exclusive clique and anyone could join the jocks and cool kids? That wasn't the case back when parents were being warned that playing D&D probably meant their kids had joined a satanic cult.


My experience with lots of gamers online has been a lot of casual racism and misogyny, and I don’t think I’m alone in that.

Are you a gamer? Then you're the problem.


Wilson the Bear: http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=671944&page=1
Ending EA: http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=87131&Number=674187#Post674187

''Sometimes it's better to be known for one's enemies''

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Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Iamblitzwing] #675489
22/09/20 05:28 AM
22/09/20 05:28 AM
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Warlocke Offline
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Originally Posted by Iamblitzwing
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Raze

Were there any qualifications required to join the forum? Has anyone challenged anything you've posted on the basis of any inalienable characteristic?
In high school in your experience were gamers the exclusive clique and anyone could join the jocks and cool kids? That wasn't the case back when parents were being warned that playing D&D probably meant their kids had joined a satanic cult.


My experience with lots of gamers online has been a lot of casual racism and misogyny, and I don’t think I’m alone in that.

Are you a gamer? Then you're the problem.


How so?

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Warlocke] #675493
22/09/20 06:06 AM
22/09/20 06:06 AM
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Raze Offline

Larian Studios
Raze  Offline

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
My experience with lots of gamers online has been a lot of casual racism and misogyny

How many is 'lots'? Online gaming is still a small fraction of the gaming community, and if you are referring to trash talk in competitive games, I would discount that anyway.
Literally everything is racist or misogynistic (air conditioners, weather, etc), and those terms have been thrown around so much that they are practically meaningless.

Again, has anyone here required your race or gender, etc, to determine how to interact with you, or referenced that at all?
A statement can be generally true even if there are exceptions (which is why I wrote 'generally' rather than 'universally'). Compared to other real groups, gamers are among the most open and inclusive.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Raze] #675494
22/09/20 06:23 AM
22/09/20 06:23 AM
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Warlocke Offline
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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Warlocke
My experience with lots of gamers online has been a lot of casual racism and misogyny

How many is 'lots'? Online gaming is still a small fraction of the gaming community, and if you are referring to trash talk in competitive games, I would discount that anyway.
Literally everything is racist or misogynistic (air conditioners, weather, etc), and those terms have been thrown around so much that they are practically meaningless.

Again, has anyone here required your race or gender, etc, to determine how to interact with you, or referenced that at all?
A statement can be generally true even if there are exceptions (which is why I wrote 'generally' rather than 'universally'). Compared to other real groups, gamers are among the most open and inclusive.


I edited my first post to clarify “lots.”

I don’t see why somebody calling me n***** or f** in a competitive game should be discounted. At what point did we decide there is ever a time or place when that is an okay way to treat a stranger?

I’m not going to argue on whether racist and misogynist are over-applied labels because I don’t need to. I’ve seen enough unequivocally bad behavior that I don’t need to reach for dubious examples. Calling somebody n***** is racist, so the term hasn’t lost its meaning.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675496
22/09/20 06:52 AM
22/09/20 06:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 27,958
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Raze Offline

Larian Studios
Raze  Offline

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If someone in a competitive game knew calling you a scholar and a gentleman would throw you off your game, there is a very good chance you would be called a scholar and a gentleman.

There are still things that are racist and misogynist. As descriptive terms, they can not be used to impart any meaningful information without specific context, since they are very frequently used when they are not applicable, or as generic insults.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675498
22/09/20 07:09 AM
22/09/20 07:09 AM
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Nyanko Offline
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I personally don't care about these issues. My only concern is if the game is fun and has a compelling story.

And as a writer, I usually detach myself from my readers concerns because it is generally the best way to compromise, and compromise is a creativity killer.

Last edited by Nyanko; 22/09/20 07:11 AM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Raze] #675512
22/09/20 01:16 PM
22/09/20 01:16 PM
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Warlocke Offline
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Originally Posted by Raze

If someone in a competitive game knew calling you a scholar and a gentleman would throw you off your game, there is a very good chance you would be called a scholar and a gentleman.

There are still things that are racist and misogynist. As descriptive terms, they can not be used to impart any meaningful information without specific context, since they are very frequently used when they are not applicable, or as generic insults.


Just because calling someone n***** or f** is likely to throw them off their game in no way makes it okay. Ends don’t justify means when the stakes are that low. It’s not okay to use racism and bigotry as a tool just because it works. What a terrible sentiment.

And being called those things never threw me off my game. But the effectiveness or not of the casual bigotry doesn’t dictate its propriety.

AND it’s not as if I only encountered this in competitive games, either.

Before I was somewhat ambivalent on the OP’s point, but you’ve convinced me that maybe Larian should hire sensitivity readers. You are doing a terrible job representing them. 😂

Last edited by Warlocke; 22/09/20 01:29 PM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675516
22/09/20 01:57 PM
22/09/20 01:57 PM
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LoneSky Offline
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I'm still sure the majority is fine, and the vocal minority of haters shouldn't define a "community" of any kind, they will always be there, just like the dirt in the house; both needs continuously cleaned up, fought back and ignored until the time is right.
Life is both a heaven & hell, it's up to us to not let bad things get inside.

Let's not forget the "nameless heroes" who still kept the light on, and thanks to them, those negatives couldn't stop us having fun. My friend lists are always far larger than the temporary block lists, even in the darkest PvP games. Hope is still there, it's worth fighting for and every new day is a gift that will be spent making only friends.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675517
22/09/20 02:23 PM
22/09/20 02:23 PM
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Sordak Offline
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And this is why i dont want Tashas cauldron of everything to be in BG3.

If you cannot feel included without a product that has been pandering to your demographic for ages now (ToEE had one of the first gay romances in video games for games. BG3 specifically features a gay vampire, bisexuality and cuckoldry which are all progressive favorites. And then holy shit all the fucking stuff Crawford put into 5e, if you say the product doesnt specifically try to include youthen you win gold medal in mental gymnastics) beeing changed fundamnetally then maybe the problem is not with the product but with your expectations.

Youre a crybully.
Thats what you are
You are demanding that everyone else change their Product to placate your demands. Demands that are so poorly defined that they can never be met.

Goalposts specifically set so they can be easily moved.


Professional fucking sensitivity

Just fucking write a video game. You dont need a gender studies degree to write people sucking each other off. The Over intellectualization of victim narratives are the death of creativity.


also

>People trashtalking you in competetive video games
Hmmmmmm i wonder...
ever heard of mindgames?
People will find your weaknesses and exploit them. You think these people stalk you and find out your specific identity? they call you names and they keep taunting you with what sticks. because it makes you play worse.
If that didnt work theyd have said theyd fucked your mom. Whatever worked to get under your skin.


And even so.
Even if the gaming community was full of casual racists. How does this impact you playing a single player RPG? Or playing with your friends?
If youve got a problem with casual racism in your single player games maybe the problem is the people you surround yourself with.
but lets not kid ourselves.

This entire argument is constructed specifically as to not require any proof. its just assumed that people on the internet are mean.

You know what?
How about you make a sales pitch why a game should be fundamentally changed to pander to someone who signed up to a forum soley to make bad faith arguments.


EDIT:
And now: To everyone else monitoring this thread:
YOU CANNOT WIN

Do you understand this? You cannot win in a race of moving goalposts.
You can never placate these people. You can never satisfy their demands.
You make every single character bisexual.
Why aren thtey also transsexual? You make half of your characters ethnic minorities. Why is the other half still white?
You specifically make create an entire supplement because some people on twitter cry about racism (and equate black people to orcs, for some progressive reason) - Still not good enaugh.
It will never stop.
You cannot win.

And if youve got a horse in this game: doy ou want this to represent you? This attitude? Do you want to be associated with constant demands?
I wouldnt want that.
I wouldnt want to be associated with crybullying. With showing up and demandign that everything about a product is changed to suit ME.

Last edited by Sordak; 22/09/20 02:28 PM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675518
22/09/20 02:26 PM
22/09/20 02:26 PM
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deathidge Offline
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It is 100% everyone's own personal choice to be offended by words. There are some horribly despicable words out there, yes, but they are still words and if you place any importance on other people opinions, especially people who mean nothing to you, you are going to live a very offended, insulted, and unhappy life.

For the life of me I can't fathom why Larian would need to hire "sensitivity readers". What do they do? Make sure to represent a certain 'group' correctly? That's not possible as there is no norm, right? Isn't that the thing today? anyone can be anything they want? There is no 'normal' queer behavior, voice, or belief system. I know just as many gay men that don't push their feminine qualities to the edge and you would never know they were gay. There are too many people of any 'walk of life' to generalize in a specific fashion. So lets just let Larian make their game, offer whatever feedback you want during EA if you buy it, and calm down on the sensitivity talk. If you want to choose to be offended that's on you.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675519
22/09/20 02:29 PM
22/09/20 02:29 PM
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Sordak Offline
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They would require to be paid.
Thats the entire point of "Senstivity trainers" and such.

They are a ploy to create jobs for gender studies majors that have no marketable skills.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Sordak] #675520
22/09/20 02:34 PM
22/09/20 02:34 PM
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Warlocke Offline
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Originally Posted by Sordak

And even so.
Even if the gaming community was full of casual racists. How does this impact you playing a single player RPG?


It doesn’t. That was a side conversation about the nature of the gaming community and had nothing to do with BG3 or single player games.

Quote

I wouldnt want to be associated with crybullying


Irony.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675522
22/09/20 02:49 PM
22/09/20 02:49 PM
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Sordak Offline
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>N-no you
try harder.
Im not the one making demands here.
What i am is sick of this.

If youre such a victim. Why do you even show up? arent you afraid to get dogpiled for your stunnign and brave opinions? By nature of the gaming community?
Or do you know that you have the force fo the Zeitgeist behind you and disagreeing with you can get you banned in plenty of places.
Im thinking what youre doing here is testing the waters and looking how far you can push this.
How far you can go till you meet resistance.
How much backing youve got from the moderators.

Becuase ultimatley this is a power play.


its actually very interresting. Youve got the force of the implied moral outrage on your side. As long as nobody voices their opinion, the spiral of silence will entrench what you say further.
Obviously the gaming community is mean and racist. Thats a truism. From that we can infer that video games are influenced by said mean community.

thats the logic were supposed to follow here and its all based on everyone agreeing on a premise thats not true.




Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675523
22/09/20 03:11 PM
22/09/20 03:11 PM
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Warlocke Offline
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What?! 😂

I haven’t made any demands of anyone or asked anybody to change their behavior. I’m pretty much resigned to people on the internet being mean and stupid.

But I just remembered who you are. You are the first person I spoke to on this forum.

Got angry at me about engaging in an argument you started.
Got really worked up for being “bullied” when I civilly pointed out a logical fallacy.
Repeatedly demonstrated a deficit in reading comprehension.
Didn’t know what metaphors were.

Sorry, but I still don’t think that you are worth talking to.
You win the debate. Here is another gold star participation trophy.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Sordak] #675525
22/09/20 03:23 PM
22/09/20 03:23 PM
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The Frog & Hounds
vometia Offline

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Originally Posted by Sordak
>N-no you
try harder.
Im not the one making demands here.
What i am is sick of this.

Actually you kinda are. Which is fine if everybody is having their say, but y'know, call it what it is.


J'aime le fromage.
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