Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General A Plea for DOS3 or Fallen Heroes [Spoilers]

To any Larian member or writer staff, please consider -

Whenever you do your new game, please don't completely blank all the relationships we had in DOS2. In other games with story elements, sometimes they opt for a small comic book strip or slideshows to allow you to tell the game some of your previous decisions in other games. Like who you romanced, who you were friends with, who died potentially. Mass Effect 2 and 3 did this, (I know some people find the ME series to be quite linear anyways but that was it's own fault).

I am very new to the Divine series and have read around that this series is quite flimsy with it's canon, often leaving the stories to be a little fuzzy on details relating to another title. But the dialogue and companion characters we got in DOS2 were very compelling and it would be a shame to blank all of it. While you can have a main ending, the nuances of Sealing the Veil could still be retained.

I found myself really attached to Sebille and her romance story path, her story as a slave, and her new path which in my mind was custom MC and her settling down somewhere, leaving, as Sebille said, godhood to others, because I ended up making the Seal the Veil choice anyways, I wanted a humble life away from the burdens of the world. While I am not a fan of the way the endings were done -

https://www.reddit.com/r/DivinityOriginalSin/comments/iw7vus/more_ending_talk/

and wrote a long text about some ideas and reasons why I felt it was so underwhelming, I would love for Fallen Heroes or whatever comes next to expand on relationships, instead of starting them new, I'd love to see what trials and tribulations a relationship that you fostered from a previous game has to endure instead of the generic, falling in love with someone new. It'd be a new take of the romance path by making it possible to even have a break up in your story, or speak of what developed between your relationships with Sebille, Loshe, Ifan, or even the Red Prince and etc.

I really enjoy the story in DOS2 ( to a point), while I originally played it for the XCOM 2 style gameplay, I ended up loving Ifan, Red Prince, Loshe, Beast, and Sebille.

From what I have seen and Larian's track record with it's Divinity series, some have said it treats each game as this insular thing that exists in it's own world. I really hope Larian decides to change that, and instead take a definitive stance on it's canon, but also give a little leeway for people who fostered hours into these characters and would like to see their dynamics return from what we saw last time.

I really wanted to see a definitive ending for my Sebille and MC, see where they ended up, what happened to them. I know some people will say it's open ended, but I would prefer some more decisive story telling.
My favourite part of these games was the moments I had with my companions, it honestly had nothing to do with the godwoken plot or anything other than my party.

I just can't imagine a OS3 or Fallen Heroes where Sebille doesn't call the MC "Darling".

I'm a sucker for sweet stories and I guess what I'm saying is DOS2 had me wanting more, but not in the gameplay department, which was fine, but not what shined to me.


I am really unsure of turning DOS into a pure tactics game, using old characters as templates and archetypes instead of real deep characters, and having adventures with them. If Fallen Heroes is it's own standalone, and we get a DOS3 that does expand on the actual RPG world with these same characters, I'd be okay with that. But somehow I don't think that's how it'll turn out.

Anyways, it's your IP, it's your story to tell, but you set a great standard by giving us so much freedom and choice... I hope you give us these characters again with that same philosophy.

I don't know if there are any plans for the D:OS 2 origin characters beyond Fallen Heroes, but the number of writers was significantly increased for D:OS 2, and an effort was made to start being more methodical with the world and lore.

Thanks for the reply!

I read somewhere you guys said you're making the player character the new commander of the Lady Vengeance, I just thought how it'd be nice for that person to be the custom hero from DOS2, instead of someone new so that players can feel as if their continuity could matter is some way. I have no idea how integral a new hero might be to your narrative so I can't be sure if it'd work. Although I can't remember if it was a credible source, and it has been a long time since, so things may have changed even if it was.

I feel under the impression that the custom heroes don't actually exist in the world/canon. Which would be odd to me. Meaning a player would have to play as an origin character, meaning an origin character would be able to solve their own personal story themselves? Granted they could. But it feels off to me because the friendship they could have made with another origin or custom hero and the dialogue that went with it is somewhat lost? I played as a custom MC because I thought that was the best way to experience the story, by hearing the voices of these 6 origin characters done by talented voice actors and learning from them. In my mind the custom MC, you, me, us, the heroes that want to live in this world, are just as integral to the game as they are to the individual companions growth. I don't think it'd be wise to cast them aside as a mere vessel to tell the story.

If the custom heroes don't come back you might even consider how Dragon Age and it's installments after the original call the Dragon Age Origins character "the Hero of Ferelden" or simply "The Warden". It may not be the same as seeing that same character, but it was an effort to connect the past experiences, in fact the character of Morrigan has a son, and mentions her romance with the Warden in various ways depending on players save data or the pre-game lore selection thing that allows players to tell the game their past decisions.

However, this is Divinity, not Dragon Age, so I defer to your judgement, again, I don't want to stymie anyone's creativity, but I'm a sucker for these characters, a testament to your writing teams prowess, and will continue to hope my humble little DOS2 hero gets another adventure with Sebille and company.

Thanks again.

It'd be a shame to me if we never saw these origin characters again after Fallen Heroes. Especially if Fallen Heroes is the last time we'd see them, and we never got to continue our adventures with them, or there was no mention of the past relationships they made with the hero you played as, origin or otherwise.

TL;DR at the bottom. I hope we can discuss story together however.

This is mostly a repost of my post on Reddit, with edits for Larian Forums, but I just wanted to make sure this feedback gets to the right place.

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Having done some research on Divinity, I found out that this game is very... flimsy. To the point where it's melting my brain. In regards of story telling and it's relationship to you, either you play an Origin character, or a Custom Hero, but something is a little off when you start calling things "Canon".

Note that a poll was done by Larian in 2016 - https://www.strawpoll.me/11084333/r

Now this poll, if retaken and reworded might yield different results today, knowing what we know, but overall I am comfortable thinking most people make themselves in these worlds, even without COOP in mind. Aggregate might say it's about half and half. But consider that each of those Origin characters speak to people individually and they gravitate towards them, exactly what a custom Character does by letting you be you.

Now with that in mind, I wanted to discuss how I find each of these Origin characters lesser than themselves when you play as one of them.

For example, every single companion IF you play as one of the Origin character can solve their own personal story on their own.
However, playing as one of them (Co-op doesn't count) the other companions turn to you to solve their quest. Not that they need you to hand hold them, but there is a plus when they involve you in their tale as their support.

Ifan forgives Lucian if you play as Ifan, yet calls you the betrayer for forgiving Lucian if not

Sebille tells you a song that can counter the Master, or resists the Master on her own with no mention of any song.
etc. etc. for each companion.

You know those moments the characters pull you aside and have a chat with you regarding their own personal issues?

You lose those moments don't you? They don't exist anymore and there is no opportunity to get to further know them.

It's partly why I knew to play as a custom hero because firstly, you barely get the Origin voice actor, and secondly, you get the same overarching outcome towards the end of the game and their own personal quest, but miss out on rather significant tales. Sebille having a song that she MUST share with someone or else she can't break free, but somehow can because the narrator say's you're a Godwoken so here's your plot resist, well what about Lohse? That's a major hand wave, and you get to see Sebille become so vulnerable in the hands of her Master and even you to a degree by trusting you, but that kind of emotional moment is gone if you play as her.

Instead of interacting with these characters as people, you have the narrator tell you the story in their heads. It may be an attempt to see their perspective, but with the narrator having his voice as it is, I don't feel as though I'm really getting anything more from their inner thoughts that I could than by interacting with them as a new separate hero. Nor their personal reactions in dialogue, seeing as I can engage in dialogue with them even if they aren't the MC, and they can interrupt me to take the lead in conversation with full VO work.

But the parts they don't tell, when they hesitate to tell or flat out say no to you are just so much better than them monologuing their own thoughts. There's that mystery, that anxiety for the next conversation.

There could be a discussion to be had about how it could have been done better, but you're dealing with 6 origins. Lara Croft can have inner thoughts in her games but she's mostly the sole character that matters, if you want to talk about what's realistically feasible. Try that one, 6 whole stories where each voice actor is doing narration alongside regular VO work, not impossible, but difficult.







Now the only thing missing with a custom hero is that you don't get to define yourself to your companions. You don't get to tell them your own backstory, they don't really ask either. And you should be able to exist within the world, and have a backstory that the other characters find interesting as well and help you with your own personal quest potentially, even demand you solve it their way, the same way you influence them to do things too! That's the main issue here.

I know why they don't ask or even care really, because we partly don't exist essentially. Which is a shame. I feel that our characters, us, we players, humans, are the supreme constant in these types stories, as in, not the Witcher 3 or a more linear example. We are always there and I believe the story is stronger if we do exist as ourselves in canon if we can create custom heroes. Simply calling us "the other adventurer", the missing puzzle piece that is never filled until we start the tale. Not the chosen one or anything, but a distinct variable. Someone beyond a vessel for the companions to vent their problems to, and a real person.

Otherwise you may as well not have the custom hero and opt for a more, Geralt from the Witcher style of storytelling, where it isn't our story, but it is more concise and definitive. DOS2, however, does make it seem like it is about our own stories. We take 4 of the 6 companions making for unique compositions of parties, we can create our own avatars, we can romance who we wish, we can decide what to do towards each goal, even if there is an overarching canon, we can still fiddle with things and not disrupt that predetermined outcome, being "Seal the Veil".

*Witcher 3 Spoilers Potentially*

Like how Geralt can romance Triss or Yen, the game ends on that note, leaving it up to you to decide how he ends his journey, there is no "canon" love interest or ending for him in the Witcher 3, although some may Yennefer or the author of the book is of a mind, it won't matter in the future of the games because there are no future Geralt games in that trilogy. It's a satisfying open ended conclusion to an interpretation of the novels.

Not so in DOS2. There is a canon ending, and unlike Geralt, we have no constant being who sat upon the throne if any did, who was in the party if any were, and who solved their companions issues if they did. I wrote an ending discussion about it a few days ago, about why I was so deflated and dissatisfied after enjoying so much of the game up until the problems started to surface.

This excerpt is from the Divinity Wiki, I have no idea where the true codex is for Divinity or if it even exists, or if this is canon anymore with how much time has pass, but it reads as such -



"By 1244 AD Ifan rejoins the Order. With the Commander and Lohse, they embark on a mission to capture Malady, who stole magical weapons from Lucian."



That was the premise for Fallen Heroes I believe. It is on-hold at the moment, it could even be canceled but lets say it wasn't, this was after all in production and they had gotten that far with their plot, being the 6 Origins and Malady returning after two years to the Lady Vengeance, and starting a new journey.

Who's the Commander? In my mind it should just be the Custom Hero from DOS2. How would that work if Fallen Heroes had a narrative and you were suddenly having a dialogue with a character you already knew? But now the game tells you this person is a stranger to you? We already know the Red Prince, why am I learning about him again? And where is my hero? He won't sit idly by while the world is in need. Not when his friends are in peril.

That's pure speculation on how Fallen Heroes would go if it had a narrative, which it seems that it was going to to an extent, but mostly be a pure Tactics title rather than a traditional RPG. Which would be a very disconnected departure from what I think was DOS2's strong point, the storytelling. Or rather, a messy story with really good and interesting concepts in between that were not meshed together well enough.

If all 6 heroes from DOS2 survive, when we can only take 4, if all 6 heroes can potentially solve all their own quests, and forgo all the development, growth, and specific dialogue along the way they had with you, how can one really call anything other than an overarching ending canon? And how can you continue a story with these same characters without consistency? Each one of us had a different experience, if one of us played an Origin character, we define that character. The Red Prince can be far nicer if you play him, but play another character and he becomes his default canonical arrogant self.

If Larian wants to retcon 2 of the 6 dying and having them all return in some way, that's fine. If Larian wants to choose a specific ending, that's reasonable too. If Larian want's to make definitive choices that ensure Lohse isn't a demon, Sebille isn't a tree or bound to any oath, if Ifan forgives Lucian, etc, that's totally within the characters agency to make those choices. But if these characters all can solve their own issues, what is the canon party composition that did that? There is no mention of a canon party composition, yet realistically, I'd find Ifan and Fane to be on their own. But if they never partied together? If they all set out by themselves?

You deflate the entire experience for people who do care about the story. And for me the story should be solid and decisive. But a game allows for that flexibility, so it's generous when the author says "This is what happens, but you're allowed to take different paths before you get to the end, and it's totally valid".
Notice in so much of Baldur's Gate 3's advertising they're constantly talking about how this is your story, that being a halfing or elf won't ruin your story or bar you from certain choices?

I think Larian needs to solidify that and there is no current bar better than that of Dragon Age and Mass Effect (with snarky replies considered, RGB and all, I know). Both of them take the entangled web of decisions and nuance and allow them to thrive in multiple different paths but all eventually leading to the same conclusion, the illusion of choice. All roads lead to Rome, and DOS2 is the exact same, and can benefit with future titles if they adopt that philosophy.







Considering at the time Larian was pretty small scale compared to how they've grown for Baldur's Gate 3, I think they weren't thinking long term. However look at where DOS2 has gone, from board games to comic books, to future titles and expansions, it's obvious that the characters from DOS2 have staying power, beyond the first DOS's cast.

We're seeing further content for the 6 Origin characters in a new series of comic books, so obviously there is a hunger for these 6 characters. Either within Larian or from without here on forums, I think we have come to see these characters as pretty interesting and their potential barely scratched. I can't see the need to head to the drawing board again and try to capture lightning in a bottle again. New characters can exist, but to hit the reset button everytime is so, destructive, throw-away. In an age of Marvel fatigue where I can't get away from Iron Man and Captain America, all the characters and stories I do love seem so fleeting to me. Maybe they're sweeter for it? I refuse.

If we do see these characters again, I really hope that there is space for a seventh hero. You. Me. All of us. I hope that in the future when we refer to "canon", while there aren't going to be any comic books about that 7th hero, the lore won't just dismiss us as not having any part in it. The player, you, shouldn't be a Command Shepard, or Chosen One, but just a variable that is present within the lore, some empty space that the world does recognize as being there and having a presence, and having a distinct impact on the world and her companions.

The ending of DOS2 feels like setting the stage for a new adventure, DOS2 feels like a Part One, and it ended in a way that by the time I felt close to my companions and romances, the game basically ends, being very vague to all of characters futures including yours. I'd love to revisit them in future games, and if we do, instead of learning about their pasts this time, have us all jump in with them, this time going into the unknown together rather than fixing loose ends for a good majority of the game.

I can't imagine my character sitting by while the 6 Origin characters muster to action, and just giving me control of some other person again, telling me these people are strangers.

If you are going to be more methodical, I hope that means you also start treating the player as a person in your world, we do after all willing step foot inside them and want to be apart of it in some way. Open the option to be our own person, our own constant in the universe, like the Hero of Ferelden, the Vault Dweller, the Dragonborn, even if you didn't play them, let the Hero of Fort Joy be that 7th companion. You.






TL;DR - The Custom Heroes should exist in canonical lore as the 7th Origin, a variable that impacts the world as vaguely as the Origin characters can, without being considered non-canon or all important. You, are that variable.

P.S. I only bring up examples in other games to simply put reference to what I'm talking about. I am not of the position to tell any creative person to copy other works or to stay within boundaries predefined. I just express that the current method of leaving the custom hero out of the world doesn't work specifically in DOS2 since the custom hero enables the companions to have agency and expression beyond what we would have them do if we played them ourselves. I believe the custom hero is integral to this game specifically as it stands, not as a cry for more of the same from other sources.