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Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Skallewag] #675605
23/09/20 11:58 AM
23/09/20 11:58 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,071
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Offline

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Originally Posted by Skallewag
As for the legality of trolling vs making racist statements it ofc differes a bit from country to country. I live in a contry that accepts the UN declaration of human rights so this probably influences my thinking on the matter. Free speech is a human right, and imo should also be a legal right. Being shielded from someone behaving like an asshole is not a human right. I do ofc not think its good when people treat eachother in such a way (whatever their motivations for doing so are) but I do not view it as a matter for the law. At most it can be a matter of breaking some form of ToS for a game/service the people involved are using to talk to eachother.

At risk of getting off the point (which I think was clarified quite neatly by Gray Ghost) and of repeating myself, placing the focus on what is legally permissible is setting the bar pretty low; plus the concept of "free speech" is often misunderstood to mean "I can say what I want where I want" which isn't actually true, and private spaces such as most online venues will set their own codes of conduct to define a minimum acceptable standard of behaviour. In an ideal world, "just because you can it doesn't mean you should" and "don't be a dick" should suffice, but it's not an ideal world. Things are very permissive on the Larian forums IMHO but it's still not a complete free-for-all and people can be uninvited at the moderators' discretion for e.g. being excessively disruptive and so on.

But that is slightly missing the point and actually Mr/s/x Ghost's explanation of what sensitivity readers actually do was quite enlightening to me: I think the term comes with the risk of a misperception developing, which I admit happened with me, but I can see what they do as being actually very useful. I've seen a number of authors making comments about "if only..." because of stuff they hadn't realised at the time. It's not about being over-earnest (which is IMHO counter-productive), if done well it should make something better without it being at the cost of something else. After all, it isn't a zero sum whatsit.

Edit: and since I managed to push the reply in question to the previous page with my waffling, I shall quote it here in its entirety.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
People seem to have a wildly innacurate view of what sensitivity readers are and what they do. But they also seem to have a bizarre view of the creative process. No idea is perfect from the very beginning and it's rarely perfect throughout the process. Writers send books to editors and alpha readers and beta readers to get other people's impressions of their work, to see if they're getting across what they want to get across the way they want to get it across, sensitivity readers are just another version of that. I even have an excellent example.

Brandon Sanderson in his book Mistborn: The Final Empire wanted to write a well-rounded, interesting female protagonist for the book. He succeeded in doing that. But he didn't realize until after things were too far along that all the other main and supporting characters in that book were guys. He as expressed his regret about that fact and wishes he'd noticed sooner so that he could have changed that. Sensitivity readers might have caught that out and thus led to a book more in keeping with his vision and ideals.

Obviously no one wants a creators creative vision to be stamped out, but sensitivity readers job isn't to overrule, it's to point out where a creator's lack of certain lived experiences are causing them to include details that would make their potential audience feel excluded or hurt. They can also point out to creators where their depictions of people unlike them are falling into unintentional cliches and pitfalls, which can lead to those characters being changed in ways that make them more true to life and interesting. And if a creator *wants* to keep those aspects in their work, then in most cases they can, it's not like there's some sort of wide practice of sensitivity readers being able to just demand a change be made or the book won't be printed.

Last edited by vometia; 23/09/20 12:00 PM.

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Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Warlocke] #675729
24/09/20 06:05 AM
24/09/20 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Iamblitzwing
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Raze

Were there any qualifications required to join the forum? Has anyone challenged anything you've posted on the basis of any inalienable characteristic?
In high school in your experience were gamers the exclusive clique and anyone could join the jocks and cool kids? That wasn't the case back when parents were being warned that playing D&D probably meant their kids had joined a satanic cult.


My experience with lots of gamers online has been a lot of casual racism and misogyny, and I don’t think I’m alone in that.

Are you a gamer? Then you're the problem.


How so?

Because you play games. You said you are a gamer. You also said lots of gamers online'' practice ''casual racism and misogyny''. So put 1 and 2 together.


Wilson the Bear: http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=671944&page=1
Ending EA: http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=87131&Number=674187#Post674187

''Sometimes it's better to be known for one's enemies''

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Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Iamblitzwing] #675738
24/09/20 07:01 AM
24/09/20 07:01 AM
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vometia Offline

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Originally Posted by Iamblitzwing
Because you play games. You said you are a gamer. You also said lots of gamers online'' practice ''casual racism and misogyny''. So put 1 and 2 together.

...and get 63, apparently.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675741
24/09/20 08:04 AM
24/09/20 08:04 AM
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Skallewag Offline
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@vometia

I agree, people shouldnt be dicks to eachother. The reason I bother pointing out stuff like the UN declaration of human rights is that a lot of people these days are very fond of calling anything and everything racism. Thats a very iffy move since a lot of countries that have legal provisions for free speech also have some of their exceptions to that freedom built around racism.
I genuinely do think its a bad thing to be a dick to people, but I also recognize that things tend to get bad quickly when the state takes upon itself to prevent things that are "grossly offence".

As for sensetivity readers I suspect people are very weary about such terms based on what they have seen happening in pop culture as of late. There might be a very benine model for what a sensetivity reader is supposed to do, but then there is the thing about humans being flawed beings who do not always do what they are supposed to with the power/influence given to them.
There are for example numerous examples of popular marvel characters that have been given to someone who doesnt have the track record traditionally required to get that kind of job but do tick certain inclusivity boxes, who the proceed to do write the character in such a way that tanks the sales and insulting their readers on twitter.

People dont mind diversity in fantasy, DnD has been a diverse space for decades before it became a popular buzzword. What they mind is hamfisted diversity at the expense of story shoved into the books, movies and games they love.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675750
24/09/20 09:34 AM
24/09/20 09:34 AM
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I think I have finally found a satisfactory term to adequately capture Raze's Wisdom. Raze is wise. To say he has horse sense doesn't begin to describe it. He has soul talent. To try and express his astounding sense in D&D Baldur's Gate III terms, we would could only say he is "Abnormis Sapiens".

Thank you, Raze, for your contributions to the game and this forum!

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Skallewag] #675764
24/09/20 12:28 PM
24/09/20 12:28 PM
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Gray Ghost Offline
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Originally Posted by Skallewag
@vometia

I agree, people shouldnt be dicks to eachother. The reason I bother pointing out stuff like the UN declaration of human rights is that a lot of people these days are very fond of calling anything and everything racism. Thats a very iffy move since a lot of countries that have legal provisions for free speech also have some of their exceptions to that freedom built around racism.
I genuinely do think its a bad thing to be a dick to people, but I also recognize that things tend to get bad quickly when the state takes upon itself to prevent things that are "grossly offence".


I do broadly agree that letting governments decide what is and isn't "grossly offensive" can go bad if the government in question is allowed too much discretion on the issue, but it has to be said that if we don't want governments to be making that call, then private industries and private citizens need to do so. I refuse to accept that "doing nothing" is an adequate response. So if private bodies aren't going to address the issue (and bear in mind that sensitivity readers are an attempt to do this) then the government will ultimately have no choice but to step in.

Originally Posted by Skallewag
As for sensetivity readers I suspect people are very weary about such terms based on what they have seen happening in pop culture as of late. There might be a very benine model for what a sensetivity reader is supposed to do, but then there is the thing about humans being flawed beings who do not always do what they are supposed to with the power/influence given to them.
There are for example numerous examples of popular marvel characters that have been given to someone who doesnt have the track record traditionally required to get that kind of job but do tick certain inclusivity boxes, who the proceed to do write the character in such a way that tanks the sales and insulting their readers on twitter.

People dont mind diversity in fantasy, DnD has been a diverse space for decades before it became a popular buzzword. What they mind is hamfisted diversity at the expense of story shoved into the books, movies and games they love.


You make a decent point here but I have to point out that there are even more examples of straight white men without the required track record being given those characters to work on and also ultimately tanking sales in various ways. What we're seeing now is women and people of colour and other diverse voices being given chances and inevitably some of them are failing, but their failures routinely get used as excuses to demonstrate that the attempt to integrate diversity is a flawed project from the start, whereas when a white man does it, it's just considered a failure on their own personal part. If it's considered a failure at all, given how often white men in any industry get to fail and fail over and over yet still continue to be relevant and be given more responsibility.

And as a final note, I get annoyed at how people talk about "diversity" like it's some singular thing when what it really is is acknowledging the stories and experiences of people who aren't considered societies default. Is some of that gonna be bad? Obviously, because a decent chunk of everything is bad. But people need to stop using the fact that there are bad examples of diversity being introduced into popular properties as justification that it shouldn't be there.


Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Gray Ghost] #675770
24/09/20 01:05 PM
24/09/20 01:05 PM
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vometia Offline

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
And as a final note, I get annoyed at how people talk about "diversity" like it's some singular thing when what it really is is acknowledging the stories and experiences of people who aren't considered societies default. Is some of that gonna be bad? Obviously, because a decent chunk of everything is bad. But people need to stop using the fact that there are bad examples of diversity being introduced into popular properties as justification that it shouldn't be there.

I think from my perspective it's the often misguided attempts to address diversity that are as much a part of the problem: e.g. the BBC's approach is to supplement the almost entirely white male Oxbridge-educated upper-middle-class types with people who may look visibly different in whatever regard but are still elite university PPE graduates from upper-middle-class wealth. Contrasted to a century ago when it was realised that in putting that class of person into officer roles and writing off the nasty smelly common poor people as cannon fodder was both leading by incompetence and a massive waste of talent. But it seems to have been un-realised in recent decades.

I digress slightly, but my point is that it's hard to get right and easy to get wrong; and that the attempts to seem earnest while actually changing nothing are a bit part of why it's viewed slightly suspiciously. And that suspicion is wrong when it comes to this thing being done properly, but I think a degree of wariness is understandable.

Also the subject of "I do broadly agree that letting governments decide what is and isn't "grossly offensive" can go bad if the government in question is allowed too much discretion on the issue": er, yes, I recall a certain porcine prime minister doing that sort of thing and being rather vague on the detail but determined that it should be the law anyway. And then unwittingly (because he was good at being a lackwit) demonstrating that he considered it something that didn't apply to him.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Iamblitzwing] #675793
24/09/20 03:27 PM
24/09/20 03:27 PM
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Warlocke Offline
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Originally Posted by Iamblitzwing

Because you play games. You said you are a gamer. You also said lots of gamers online'' practice ''casual racism and misogyny''. So put 1 and 2 together.


Lots doesn’t mean all. Lots doesn’t even mean most. Check your math.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Languid Lizard] #675794
24/09/20 03:31 PM
24/09/20 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Languid Lizard
I think I have finally found a satisfactory term to adequately capture Raze's Wisdom. Raze is wise. To say he has horse sense doesn't begin to describe it. He has soul talent. To try and express his astounding sense in D&D Baldur's Gate III terms, we would could only say he is "Abnormis Sapiens".

Thank you, Raze, for your contributions to the game and this forum!


There is nothing wise about insinuating it is permissible to use hate speech to throw off strangers in online games because it is effective. It is intellectually lazy.

Last edited by Warlocke; 24/09/20 04:32 PM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Warlocke] #675803
24/09/20 04:01 PM
24/09/20 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by LoneSky
OP quote "how a narrative responds to the representation of marginalized communities" - that's why we have more and more low quality products, like the Star Wars and Dragon Age among others, because instead focusing on artistic freedom, the inclusion of "variety" must be forced into the narrative, doesn't matter if fits or not, just because sheer political pressure.

As long as my character(s) can answer properly, I won't mind any lines, insults included. That's realistic depiction of a situation. Including everyone everywhere, just dilutes a narrative, and what's the point when soon all are just carbon copies of each other?

Sensitivity is fine, we all have that to a point... In the real world we don't live in a bubble, abuse happens at every step, sometimes is a way of life, sometimes it's just misdirected anger, but we always have to be ready to react properly. There are no safe spaces out there, and turning a game into one, just downgrades it to a plastic feel. Unless it's something made for little kids, which isn't the case here.


I’m all about inclusivity and diversity and I hated the new Stars Wars films and Dragon Age each for being poorly crafted. Do you have any evidence that they “failed” (neither has failed commercially, even though Episodes 8 and 9 underperformed they still made over a billion dollars each) for diversity and not for just being generally a bit crap?

I don’t remember any diversity narrative in the new Star Wars movies, though I blocked a lot of it out my mind. There was diversity in casting, sure, but where in the narrative?

And asking for a game to have mindful representation isn’t the same as asking for it to be a safe space.


To help people escape from the Feminism indoctrination in the new Star Wars, some wag created an edited version of it which removed any scenes with women in them. It was quite an interesting notion.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Sordak] #675807
24/09/20 04:10 PM
24/09/20 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
And this is why i dont want Tashas cauldron of everything to be in BG3.

If you cannot feel included without a product that has been pandering to your demographic for ages now (ToEE had one of the first gay romances in video games for games. BG3 specifically features a gay vampire, bisexuality and cuckoldry which are all progressive favorites. And then holy shit all the fucking stuff Crawford put into 5e, if you say the product doesnt specifically try to include youthen you win gold medal in mental gymnastics) beeing changed fundamnetally then maybe the problem is not with the product but with your expectations.

Youre a crybully.
Thats what you are
You are demanding that everyone else change their Product to placate your demands. Demands that are so poorly defined that they can never be met.

Goalposts specifically set so they can be easily moved.


Professional fucking sensitivity

Just fucking write a video game. You dont need a gender studies degree to write people sucking each other off. The Over intellectualization of victim narratives are the death of creativity.


also

>People trashtalking you in competetive video games
Hmmmmmm i wonder...
ever heard of mindgames?
People will find your weaknesses and exploit them. You think these people stalk you and find out your specific identity? they call you names and they keep taunting you with what sticks. because it makes you play worse.
If that didnt work theyd have said theyd fucked your mom. Whatever worked to get under your skin.


And even so.
Even if the gaming community was full of casual racists. How does this impact you playing a single player RPG? Or playing with your friends?
If youve got a problem with casual racism in your single player games maybe the problem is the people you surround yourself with.
but lets not kid ourselves.

This entire argument is constructed specifically as to not require any proof. its just assumed that people on the internet are mean.

You know what?
How about you make a sales pitch why a game should be fundamentally changed to pander to someone who signed up to a forum soley to make bad faith arguments.


EDIT:
And now: To everyone else monitoring this thread:
YOU CANNOT WIN

Do you understand this? You cannot win in a race of moving goalposts.
You can never placate these people. You can never satisfy their demands.
You make every single character bisexual.
Why aren thtey also transsexual? You make half of your characters ethnic minorities. Why is the other half still white?
You specifically make create an entire supplement because some people on twitter cry about racism (and equate black people to orcs, for some progressive reason) - Still not good enaugh.
It will never stop.
You cannot win.

And if youve got a horse in this game: doy ou want this to represent you? This attitude? Do you want to be associated with constant demands?
I wouldnt want that.
I wouldnt want to be associated with crybullying. With showing up and demandign that everything about a product is changed to suit ME.



I think I will start referring to Sordak as Sordak the Wise.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675808
24/09/20 04:23 PM
24/09/20 04:23 PM
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Hopefully, it will not be to much to hope that in this game there will be feminine females and masculine males.

If we are obliged by some to take trans-sexual vampires absolutely seriously, then to be even handed, we ought to accept that some will oblige us to receive them with derision. For every seriously gay vampire, there ought to be a hilarious gay vamp. Without this, the full potential of the story to examine issues will be lacking. Who wants to be shoehorned into mocking something they respect? Who wants to be forced to admire something they despise?

Will characters be pulling down statues of funny gay vampires in the game, to replace them with utterly serious gay vampire effigies?


Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Skallewag] #675823
24/09/20 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Skallewag
@vometia

I genuinely do think its a bad thing to be a dick to people, but I also recognize that things tend to get bad quickly when the state takes upon itself to prevent things that are "grossly offence".


Could you give some examples of these failed states?

There’s been a lot of nasty regimes past and present, doing nasty things to it’s own population and other populations, but I can’t think of any that got that way by telling it’s subjects to be nice to each other.

The closest I can come up with is the LA of the future in Demolition Man.


Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675824
24/09/20 05:57 PM
24/09/20 05:57 PM
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Good lord, there was some serious dumbassery in this thread.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675830
24/09/20 06:30 PM
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There is no need to discuss politics here.
Thank you.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675841
24/09/20 08:28 PM
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Seems like a pretty political topic to me, particularly when the old freedom of speech argument comes out, but fine.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Dark_Ansem] #675902
25/09/20 10:33 AM
25/09/20 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Iamblitzwing
Because you play games. You said you are a gamer. You also said lots of gamers online'' practice ''casual racism and misogyny''. So put 1 and 2 together.

...and get 63, apparently.

69 actually.

Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Good lord, there was some serious dumbassery in this thread.

Yeah. From yourself.


Wilson the Bear: http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=671944&page=1
Ending EA: http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=87131&Number=674187#Post674187

''Sometimes it's better to be known for one's enemies''

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A G1 Transformer
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: DrunkPunk] #676069
26/09/20 08:38 PM
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One of the many reasons why I just don't play games in recent times anymore is that all male game characters are using a stereotype/cliché of manliness I cannot comply.
I simply don't feel as if the bulky Warforged One with his statue is representing me.




Originally Posted by DrunkPunk
Star Wars is in a sorry state because of poor creative direction focusing on nostalgia instead of a cohesive story to pull in fans, despite that not being what star wars fans want at all.


I agree to that.

The last 3 movies of that ssaga - I don't mean the spin-offs - didn't show any long-term story. In my eyes they were merely action movies to please extrovert people ( see ? even I have my prejudices ! ) .


Originally Posted by Languid Lizard
To help people escape from the Feminism indoctrination in the new Star Wars, some wag created an edited version of it which removed any scenes with women in them. It was quite an interesting notion.


There was ? I never noticed. All I noticed was an overabundance of effects, eplosions and such.



Originally Posted by Iamblitzwing
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Iamblitzwing
Because you play games. You said you are a gamer. You also said lots of gamers online'' practice ''casual racism and misogyny''. So put 1 and 2 together.

...and get 63, apparently.

69 actually.


42 !

Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Good lord, there was some serious dumbassery in this thread.


No-one can beat me !


Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 26/09/20 08:47 PM.

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Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #690329
12/10/20 08:11 AM
12/10/20 08:11 AM
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It's almost like these things are increasingly prevalent in many aspects of popular culture because it allows more and more people to enjoy them via no longer feeling alienated and othered within escapist fantasy

And, with more people enjoying it, its therefore more popular

I'm sorry there are women and black people in, playing, and creating dnd now; eventually you'll get over it.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #700455
15/10/20 09:03 PM
15/10/20 09:03 PM
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People that preach tolerance sometimes have none themselves, and only use it to try to force others to tolerate their own beliefs and actions. Tolerance goes both ways, and should really be the theme all sides are trying to support.

I've seen this in a lot of arenas lately, not just video games. Sports for example. I'm a football fan, and a lot of my friends and family were football fans. We had a lot of fun watching football games together. Now, they don't want to watch sports anymore. They think they're making a political statement by not watching it because they don't like what the players are doing off the field, or before the games. Suddenly that thing that brought fun and enjoyment for us is gone, and I'm watching alone. They can't tolerate the player's expressing their personal beliefs or their support of movements or ideas. I think it's sad, that people would let the personal preferences of others ruin their own enjoyment of something they liked. I like football, and i like video games. I'm not going to let anything that a player, or a character, does or says take it away from me. I tolerate their beliefs and their right to say what they believe whether i agree with them or not, because at the end of the day, i'm still just watching football, or playing a video game, and their political or personal views have nothing to do with that.

So let's all try to be more tolerant, and expect others to be tolerant as well. Whatever side you are on of an issue, try to tolerate the other side as well. At the end of the day, this game unifies us, because we can all agree that we all love DnD, Baldur's Gate, and RPGs.


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