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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by vometia
I'm not from a D&D background, so I may not "get" it, but modifying the target score beforehand and then comparing the result of the dice-roll seems more straightforward to me...


I'm not particularly invested either way. I don't mind the reduction in target number as a way of dealing it, but I wouldn't care if they left the DC the same and added the modifiers after, either.

That's probably better, because there actually is a difference in effect, though. If a check has enough modifiers to it, the "target" could be be reduced as far down as 1, in which case you could pass it even with a natural 1, which by the rules is an automatic failure.

I actually encountered one check with a target of 1, and that was where I rolled my first natural 1 (in dialogue), and passed the check. It was the tutorial for using the Illithid tadpole, so the check was easy on purpose, but it still exposed a potential weakness.

Ah, that would explain it. Now I see. As much as I kinda like the way it's presented, I can now understand some people's dissatisfaction and that it's more than a subjective matter.

I really need to start compiling a list of all this stuff before I forget.


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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by vometia
I'm not from a D&D background, so I may not "get" it, but modifying the target score beforehand and then comparing the result of the dice-roll seems more straightforward to me...


I'm not particularly invested either way. I don't mind the reduction in target number as a way of dealing it, but I wouldn't care if they left the DC the same and added the modifiers after, either.

That's probably better, because there actually is a difference in effect, though. If a check has enough modifiers to it, the "target" could be be reduced as far down as 1, in which case you could pass it even with a natural 1, which by the rules is an automatic failure.

I actually encountered one check with a target of 1, and that was where I rolled my first natural 1 (in dialogue), and passed the check. It was the tutorial for using the Illithid tadpole, so the check was easy on purpose, but it still exposed a potential weakness.



Natural 1's are only automatic failures for attack rolls. Just as rolling a 20 doesn't mean automatic success, rolling a 1 doesn't mean automatic failure, if your score is high enough an easy task is still an easy task and no matter how high you roll, you can't swim (athletics) up a waterfall.

This is a common misconception for people who don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of everything 5e (some of us have issues).

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I think Larian is using loaded dice obtained from a Vegas casino in the game. Can't tell you how many times my 17 dex ranger has rolled a 1 on dex checks so far...I ran out of fingers and toes to count on.

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Originally Posted by Anfindel
I think Larian is using loaded dice obtained from a Vegas casino in the game. Can't tell you how many times my 17 dex ranger has rolled a 1 on dex checks so far...I ran out of fingers and toes to count on.

Hah, I was feeling the same way, though I don't have a great history of great dice rolls.


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It seems to me that the bonus from Guidance doesn't always apply even if it shows it doing so on the DC

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I totally understand the sentiment of wanting to see the actual roll and DC, and then see the modifiers.

But! At this point I feel like I prefer the immediate effect of "did I roll high enough" without seeing a bunch of mathematics.

The only thing I would like to be included is the two dice of advantage/disadvantage to be shown in some form or fashion. To me that would increase the immediate effect of "omg look at my dice".

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Originally Posted by Khorvale
Other than it being needlessly annoying and using a different form than it's source material, it technically also changes the mechanic:

D20 + modifier vs. DC is "open-ended", you roll your dice and add your number to it. It could theoretically go to +1.000.000 if that was the scope of the game.

D20 vs DC - modifier is "closed off", in the sense that you can never, ever roll higher than 20 on a skill check since the modifier is added to the DC instead, and DCs can presumably go no lower than 1.

It seems like a unneeded change that has the potential to actually complicate things down the line as well.

Probably the reason why there is no expertise in this game.

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Somwhat related to this, I love all the talk about the general RNG involved with the virtual dice rolling already. The human brain is notoriously bad with randomness (it's just the way it is), there is so much perception bias (enemies always hit, my character despite a 75% chance misses four times in a row, broken, it's delightful if you're interested in randomness, like me. hehe

Tim Cain really explained it all best in 2017. https://youtu.be/MEewLWDpscA?t=1498

Last edited by Sven_; 09/10/20 09:15 AM.
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Just from an emotional standpoint, I think I'd prefer to see the base DC and then have my bonuses added to my roll. Either seperately after the roll or maybe by changing the numbers on the die? Just because, I think it would be clearer that my character succeeded in doing something difficult because they are an expert (or have help, magical or otherwise), rather than my character doing something that looks easy without any instant indication that other people would have found it much harder to do.

That would give me validation that the choices I made in picking skills had a concrete effect and clearly show me when that lets me do soemthing I would have failed at otherwise.

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This! +1

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Originally Posted by Dr Darkspeed
Just from an emotional standpoint, I think I'd prefer to see the base DC and then have my bonuses added to my roll. Either seperately after the roll or maybe by changing the numbers on the die? Just because, I think it would be clearer that my character succeeded in doing something difficult because they are an expert (or have help, magical or otherwise), rather than my character doing something that looks easy without any instant indication that other people would have found it much harder to do.

That would give me validation that the choices I made in picking skills had a concrete effect and clearly show me when that lets me do soemthing I would have failed at otherwise.


Yes, this is a very real thing. The current design basically hides your character's level skill and makes skill checks look like it's just an arbitrary dice roll. It's kinda preventing you from feeling awesome or seeing your character development.

Last edited by Khorvale; 09/10/20 01:09 PM.
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The dice rolling is confusing. They should show the details and follow the 5e calculation transparently.

This game and 5e rules are already very complicated, no sense simplifying dice rolls.

Last edited by vel; 09/10/20 01:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by Khorvale
Originally Posted by Dr Darkspeed
Just from an emotional standpoint, I think I'd prefer to see the base DC and then have my bonuses added to my roll. Either seperately after the roll or maybe by changing the numbers on the die? Just because, I think it would be clearer that my character succeeded in doing something difficult because they are an expert (or have help, magical or otherwise), rather than my character doing something that looks easy without any instant indication that other people would have found it much harder to do.

That would give me validation that the choices I made in picking skills had a concrete effect and clearly show me when that lets me do soemthing I would have failed at otherwise.


Yes, this is a very real thing. The current design basically hides your character's level skill and makes skill checks look like it's just an arbitrary dice roll. It's kinda preventing you from feeling awesome or seeing your character development.


You can see how much you skill affects the target before you roll by hovering over it. To me, that gets the point across well enough.

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Originally Posted by Dagless
Originally Posted by Khorvale
Originally Posted by Dr Darkspeed
Just from an emotional standpoint, I think I'd prefer to see the base DC and then have my bonuses added to my roll. Either seperately after the roll or maybe by changing the numbers on the die? Just because, I think it would be clearer that my character succeeded in doing something difficult because they are an expert (or have help, magical or otherwise), rather than my character doing something that looks easy without any instant indication that other people would have found it much harder to do.

That would give me validation that the choices I made in picking skills had a concrete effect and clearly show me when that lets me do soemthing I would have failed at otherwise.


Yes, this is a very real thing. The current design basically hides your character's level skill and makes skill checks look like it's just an arbitrary dice roll. It's kinda preventing you from feeling awesome or seeing your character development.


You can see how much you skill affects the target before you roll by hovering over it. To me, that gets the point across well enough.


Yes I know you can mouse-over to see a breakdown of the roll. The breakdown is technically incorrect because it tells you that you roll a D20 + X and it also states that the target number is DC - X, but that would mean that you apply your modifier twice, which you don't. That's just bad layout though, the mechanics are doing what they're supposed to do except that for no apparent or explained reason they've taken one of the core dice rolls of the D&D system and turned it inside out. In practice it does (almost) the same thing but I'm betting that for most people who has played D&D since 3rd edition and on, it's a weird annoying that they implemented skill checks backwards. In the end though, it's probably like discussing which way to hang your toiletpaper laugh

Last edited by Khorvale; 09/10/20 02:03 PM.
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It makes sense to me - it shows what you need to roll to pass, rather then actual numerical difficulty. I think it is th more important and enjoyable information. I think that if we have actual DC rolling would be less impactful with post roll modification.

All it does - it calculated the roll beforehand and says: "Yo, you need to roll "X" to succeed".

Turn based system in Pathfinder does something similar - while it is not the most informative, I think it is the most immediately useful presentation - you need to roll "X" to hit, where is "DC is "X" adds additional steps like "what is my "Y" modifier" and "so what do I need to roll and what are my chances?".

Last edited by Wormerine; 09/10/20 03:39 PM.
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Are the bonus to skill checks applied in the background? For example I needed to make a Int skill check on a DC of 7 and I have a +1 to Int. My roll showed a 6 but I still failed. So are bonuses not being applied correctly or is the game in this instance rolling a 5 and then adding the +1?

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Originally Posted by Artenteri
Are the bonus to skill checks applied in the background? For example I needed to make a Int skill check on a DC of 7 and I have a +1 to Int. My roll showed a 6 but I still failed. So are bonuses not being applied correctly or is the game in this instance rolling a 5 and then adding the +1?


The game mechanic is subtracting your skill modifier from the DC you need to hit and then just rolling a straight D20 against the modified DC, rather than the D&D version where you roll D20 + modifier against a set DC.

So in your example, the initial DC was 8, and the engine modified that down to 7, and then rolled a D20 with no modifiers on it against that number.

Last edited by Khorvale; 09/10/20 04:00 PM.
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Thanks

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Originally Posted by dreambled
I really wish they just kept the DC the same, allowed us to roll, then show an animation of our proficiency affecting what we rolled.

+1

This would be really rewarding and it would benefit the roleplay aspects and getting to know your characters' strengths and weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by Alrik
Originally Posted by dreambled
I really wish they just kept the DC the same, allowed us to roll, then show an animation of our proficiency affecting what we rolled.

+1

This would be really rewarding and it would benefit the roleplay aspects and getting to know your characters' strengths and weaknesses.


Yeah I really don't understand how the current design was deemed better than depicting it how the rules actually do it, since there's no real mechanical difference anyway. Kinda seems like a "because we could" design choice but what do I know? laugh

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