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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Have they changed it? I haven't played EA, but iirc in the gameplay demos XP seemed to be the same regardless of party size.

No, they didn't change it yet, but that's precisely ONE area where they could easily address the problem as a whole.
I'm fine with companions auto-leveling to keep even with you, but they could at least make that the number of party members decides how much exp each one gets.
You know, precisely like in the old Baldur's Gate games.



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Currently game present us that option:
1 Thief
1 Cleric
1 Fighter
1 Mage
1 Warlock

We have lack of options in Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 there was more space in party and mroe characters to chose. In Divinity Original Sin and BG 3 we are limited to 4 character but in DO we got option to change every of character in our party from scrach almost everywhere. So if Larian want stay with 4 characters we shoud get a lot more avaible characters in later game. Baldur's Gate 2 for example allow player to join 5 from 17 avaible characters to his party. This was enought to make really ncie setups for every kind of player.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by jonn
Personally I'd trust that if Larian want to make & balance the game around a 4 person group, then that is the optimal way to go. In fact I'd be concerned that if enough people keep clamouring for a 6 man group then they will end up using time & resources to cater to them, to the detriment of other aspects of the overall experience.

Sounds like the marrying of a baseless assumption and a pointless concern.
Tweaking the UI to adjust for six characters wouldn't be that much work (especially if they also take the chances to improve party control, which is sorely needed regardless of party expansion) and encounters are still in the middle of balancing/tweaking, so better address the idea of a bigger party now rather than later down in production.




It's not just tweaking the UI though is it, entire maps are designed around encounters and battles. They would have to add quite a few more companions into the game too, otherwise you'd just end up taking the same ones every time. Which means designing, writing, coding, voice acting. I think there were 16 potential companions in BG 2 so if you're looking for this level of variability then that means tripling the amount of work they've done so far in terms of the above.

Just for the record, if this is something that Larian already have in the pipeline, then great, I'm all for it. As long as they can achieve it while still having enough time and resources to do everything else properly.

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Originally Posted by Rouoko
Currently game present us that option:
1 Thief
1 Cleric
1 Fighter
1 Mage
1 Warlock

We have lack of options in Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 there was more space in party and mroe characters to chose. In Divinity Original Sin and BG 3 we are limited to 4 character but in DO we got option to change every of character in our party from scrach almost everywhere. So if Larian want stay with 4 characters we shoud get a lot more avaible characters in later game. Baldur's Gate 2 for example allow player to join 5 from 17 avaible characters to his party. This was enought to make really ncie setups for every kind of player.


I believe it will be the case in the future. Swen talked about it in an interview, and they definitely intend to allow the change of classes for companions.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko

I believe it will be the case in the future. Swen talked about it in an interview, and they definitely intend to allow the change of classes for companions.

Absolutely not a fan of "changing classes for companions", by the way.
Not in D&D, for sure.

I feel like their class and eventually their special abilities should be an integral part of their identity, not some accessory dressing that could be changed on a whim.
I'd obviously prefer just having more companions to select from. Then again Larian is making this exceptionally hard for itself with this terrible idea of making "every companion also a possible Origin story", which inflates the cost of creating each one considerably. Something that I hope they'll reconsider.

I'd take having a large selection of interesting characters over "having just few of them and being able to replay the game in their role" any day, frankly.





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I agree completely. The 4 members big party feels too limiting and essentially doesn't allow for creativity or experimentation.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Alon Binyamin
I actually like the 4 party member limit. Bigger parties will slowdown combat .

We already addressed this: in short, that's not true at all.
First, because if anything more party members would "clean up" the enemies quicker.
Second, because making room for 6 party members doesn't mean you CAN'T still play wioth 4, 2, or even solo if you want (surprise surprise, that's exactly what some people did with the past two Baldur's Gate games).
The mere fact you are splitting exp among less party members automatically address party scalability making smaller parties level up faster.



Fair point.
But I have a feeling that if we have a party of 6, they'll just add more enemies to encounters slowing it down again.

It's just I'm afraid that if the game would be designed for a party of 6, playing with 4 would require me to cheese some aspects. But it really is a matter of design. For example, if the fact that I can pick locks will drive me to a point where I have use Knock and rest every 10 minutes that would't be fun. But, if it means I can advance in the game reasonably but have to pass on some tasty loot or shortcuts because I couldn't pick the lock - great. It means my next playthrough, with a rouge, will be different.

As I said, I'm ok with it if it's important to people - I'll work around it.

On a side note, I personally find it hard not to "do everything", open every chest, visit every room, etc.. when I can do it (due to having all options available) - but it does kill the enjoyment from future playthroughs. I like it when the game forces me to choose.

Last edited by Alon Binyamin; 09/10/20 12:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nyanko
I believe it will be the case in the future. Swen talked about it in an interview, and they definitely intend to allow the change of classes for companions.



This will make game worst. What If I change Gale class to paladin or Wyll to thief? This will mess character design.

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Yeah, allowing some limited multi-classing where it makes sense for companions would be okay probably, but fully changing classes would actually break the story, especially since for some of them their class is tied directly into their stories. Shadowheart being a cleric of Shar is her big thing, as is Gale being a wizard and Wyll a Warlock. Astarion probably has a bit more wiggle room since "rogue" has always been kind of vague out of world, but even then you can only change him so far before the story breaks completely.

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I hope everyone that advocates for an increased party size also understands the implications on basically every single aspect of the entire game regarding balance.

This would in-effect basically cake-walk significant majority, if not the entire game.

Go play DOS2 with the standard 4 characters on the hardest difficulty (Tactician) then get a mod that adds only even ONE extra character and realise how trivial the game instantly becomes.


There's something to be said for challenge and less-is-more. If they've made/making the game around a party of 4, something like two extra characters, on top of being hugely imbalanced to the entire game, also becomes a massive micro-management of the party. Not to mention the various compounded-effects on the dialogue and story.

Going from 4 to 6 is where you get to that point when you keep folding a paper to the point you can't fold it any more. I honestly just cannot see this happening. As much as people want this to be DND, it's just not.


There are so many variables with even just a party of 4, basically adding 2 more you'd effectively be quadrupling the work required in the game to facilitate this. Entire re-balancing, entire interactions and a whole complex myriad of sequences, dialogue, events, triggers.

I have a belief that they would have come to a decision of 4 by purpose, by choice and with good reason. We may not know it, and maybe it's not set in stone, but i'm almost certain the discussion came up of Party-size at some point and i guarantee you the size of 4 was selected for a lot of reasons. To go back on that, i just can't see it happening. Not this far along...

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Originally Posted by fixxer
I hope everyone that advocates for an increased party size also understands the implications on basically every single aspect of the entire game regarding balance.

This would in-effect basically cake-walk significant majority, if not the entire game.

Go play DOS2 with the standard 4 characters on the hardest difficulty (Tactician) then get a mod that adds only even ONE extra character and realise how trivial the game instantly becomes.


There's something to be said for challenge and less-is-more. If they've made/making the game around a party of 4, something like two extra characters, on top of being hugely imbalanced to the entire game, also becomes a massive micro-management of the party. Not to mention the various compounded-effects on the dialogue and story.

Going from 4 to 6 is where you get to that point when you keep folding a paper to the point you can't fold it any more. I honestly just cannot see this happening. As much as people want this to be DND, it's just not.


The game is actually called Baldur's Gate instead of Divinity Original Sin so yeah IT IS D&D and that's how they should focus it. About challenges of course right now on low levels there aren't many hard encounters (even the goblin part is ok) but do remember unlike any game made by them D&D has a lot of monters, a LOT to choose and design encounters. With some very epic and legendary ones specially on the late game, ones that actually need you to have a variety of characters like bard to support using Countercharm or Hypnotic Pattern, or a Paladin with their auras, A Wizard to cast powerfull spells and control, as well as a Cleric to Control/Damage/Heal and of course a Rougue to Search for traps/disarm and lockpick, and should I mention a Barbarian or Fighter as well to Wreck Havoc at the enemy lines, and a Ranger to shooting things down and dealing tons of damage?

Stop thinking like DOS cause it might be Larian but it ain't DOS. This is D&D and every class brings something to the table and being restricted to 4 is actually damaging in the aspect of supporting each other in the mid and late game.

Last edited by HeavensBells; 09/10/20 01:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by fixxer
I hope everyone that advocates for an increased party size also understands the implications on basically every single aspect of the entire game regarding balance.

Yes, we absolutely do.
Thanks for your concern.

And "balance" at the current state of development is such a bogus thing to worry about.
Encounters will still need to be fine tuned for more than a year to come, regardless of any change to the party size.

Last edited by Tuco; 09/10/20 01:23 PM.

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A party of six would feel much more in inline with D&D on pen and paper. I can't help but feel the 4 party limit is kind of a Divinity carryover.

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Originally Posted by TheWhiteRabbit
Imma add my 2 cents to this conversation and say no, stick with 4. MAYBE 5, but thats absolutely it.

All this nonsense that players are saying about conversations should be with everyone involved, huge parties, and what have you. This is 2020, games are no longer easy, or handed to you. You have to actually -PLAY- them, and that means making, (everyone duck!), decisions!

Everyone can talk in one conversation? Offering their rolls to conversational choices? Why have choices at all then? You are loading the dice. How is this even fun when you "win" every conversation? Why. Roll. The. Dice. At. All.

6 member party? Why choose what classes you want to bring that would be best for whatever situation? You aren't making any decisions at this point, you are just freerolling and claiming a win for something you didn't Actually win in the first place because you started a combat with a loaded out squad.

To be completely fair to the OP, whom for the record is the exact same age as I am, down to the month, which is creepy and cool, their suggestion is essentially the creating of a different mode, which also includes a warning that this makes the game easier (I would use the word 'free', but I digress), I don't hate having more options, nor will I ever, but this distinction MUST be made.

Your argument about been able to have everything and leave nothing behind removing any choices is very valid in EA where we have 5 companions and 6 classes to choose from meaning if you was a ranger you would have everything, which is one of the reasons I said focus on the game as is for now and add it at launch. And we already know there are another 6 classes planned for launch Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin & Sorcerer. If they make 12 companions you'd be leaving half of them behind and two thirds if the make 18, I don't think they have said exactly how many companions there will be so I have pulled those numbers out of thin air. I'm not opposed to the four player party and I'm glad that the people who like it can pay the way they want, and people who like solo challenge runs are catered for since you don't have to recruit anyone if you don't want to, but those of us who like six player parties have no real choice implemented but Larian themselves, we have to rely on modders and risk it breaking the game in unexpected ways beyond balance. To me it is immersion breaking to leave highly capable adventurers behind at camp while I face all the danger myself so I will only be recruiting as many people fit into my party, leaving plenty to discover on subsequent playthroughs.
Oh and I'm July 3rd if that makes any difference to you.

Originally Posted by jayn23
Just to add my point of view to the discussion, while like most of you guys I would preferer a party of 6 for multiple reasons most were mentioned before so no point in going over them again.
Larian has already acknowledged that many fans want a 6 player party and they still decided to go for a 4 party build because they felt it was the "sweet spot" so asking them to change to 6 party and rebalance the whole game in very unlikely, I think we should be more realistic with our requests and go with what the OP suggested - they continue to follow there vision and create the game for a 4 man party, add a option in menus to unlock a 6 man party with a pop up notifying you that the game was balanced for 4 man party and difficulty level is untested for this build.
this has a much higher chance of happening if they see the demand for it.

and for those thinking that what's the point of a 6 man party if combat is balanced for 4 - well i can give you at least one laugh
after act 1 we need to choose who moves on with us to act2 and who is left behind, this way we get to take more companions with us - more companions quests to do, better RP and banter etc..

I normally play games for story and not challenge so I usually pick an easier difficulty, and if a 6 man mode is not balanced I would probably play it on hard difficulty instead of normal to get the base level challenge. Yes a six man party might not be as challenging as four a man but there will be a fair bit we can do to offset that with difficulty settings ourselves without Larian having to do anything other than implement a setting to be able to increase party size. People who like challenge and limitations are catered for already since they can do self imposed challenges, that's why nuzlock is a thing, people like to be challenged, but someone who wants a larger party to take a less cookie cutter and more divers party has no options, and no I don't believe "let the modders fix it" is a valid response. Larian is big enough with enough staff that it is something they should be able to implement themselves without relying on their customers to fix their game or add features that large portions of their fan base want since it is a feature of the two previous games this is a sequel to.

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Originally Posted by Sir Sparhawk

and no I don't believe "let the modders fix it" is a valid response. Larian is big enough with enough staff that it is something they should be able to implement themselves without relying on their customers to fix their game or add features that large portions of their fan base want since it is a feature of the two previous games this is a sequel to.


Yeah exactly what I said earlier, this approach is just really lazy. As a developer myself (altough not in the gaming industry) I can't imagine leaving solutions my costumer is actually asking for them to develop. We are on sprint 1 of the open beta/ Early Acess in which new requisites might be added so yeah they should listen to the base instead and try to adapt.

One could argument gamers as costumers are a multitude of players so there'll always be two sides, but IF you actually made a poll or used Sentiment analysis with machine learning you're most certain to get the most you need from the steam/larian/GOG foruns to really make it so the fans of Baldur's Gate actually see this as another game of the franchise instead of another DOS.

Last edited by HeavensBells; 09/10/20 02:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kal Spiro
Four party members is classic DnD video game size. Considering how cake fights have been so far with just four, I can't imagine how broken six might be.

All the classic D&D games I remeber where six party members, the Eye of the Beholder games was four player created and two NPCs, the Baldur's Gate games where one player created and six NPCs, the Icewind Dale games where six player created, I never played Temple of Elemental Evil but I believe that was six characters as well and most of these have been held up as the gold standard for various people over the decades.

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Originally Posted by Sir Sparhawk

All the classic D&D games I remeber where six party members, the Eye of the Beholder games was four player created and two NPCs, the Baldur's Gate games where one player created and six NPCs, the Icewind Dale games where six player created, I never played Temple of Elemental Evil but I believe that was six characters as well and most of these have been held up as the gold standard for various people over the decades.

Temple of Elemental Evil allowed parties to baloon up to EIGHT members, if charisma/reputation allowed it.
Ironically, in contrast to people saying "six men wouldn't work with turns", that was made manageable precisely by the game being turn-based.

Last edited by Tuco; 09/10/20 02:17 PM.

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+1

A 4-people party is extremely limited and forces you into boring compositions. 6 people would be ideal.

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Originally Posted by HeavensBells
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by jonn
Personally I'd trust that if Larian want to make & balance the game around a 4 person group, then that is the optimal way to go. In fact I'd be concerned that if enough people keep clamouring for a 6 man group then they will end up using time & resources to cater to them, to the detriment of other aspects of the overall experience.

Sounds like the marrying of a baseless assumption and a pointless concern.
Tweaking the UI to adjust for six characters wouldn't be that much work (especially if they also take the chances to improve party control, which is sorely needed regardless of party expansion) and encounters are still in the middle of balancing/tweaking, so better address the idea of a bigger party now rather than later down in production.



Exactly , great point and summarize what needs to be done and planned right now before even a biger update on EA.

By the way people saying they can just wait for modders, I feel this is a really lazy approach on Larian if they rely on community and third parties to help them on their own game, as well as if they do that the game can't be balanced well for those who wish to experience a true D&D experience with a party.

Originally Posted by Tuco
More than anything, "modding" shoudl be reserved for fringe little ideas that are a matter of taste.
When the overwhelming majority of your community seems to be in favor of a solution over an other and the full release is still possibly even more than a year away, maybe it's time to start reconsidering what should be part of the core design.

Agreed, Larian Is big enough now with enough staff that they should not have to rely on modders to implement features that large portions of their fan base want, and it's something that was in both previous titles this is a sequel to. Restricting to four people in a party restricts what you can do with party members as well. You can't do couples like in the originals, that means you can't do stuff like they did with Khalid and Jaheira, no Eldoth and Skie and no Minsc and Dynaheir.

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For me 4 members is just fine.

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