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Originally Posted by Dingor
Originally Posted by CrestOfArtorias
Baldurs Gate is a DnD story. Larian made clear the mechanics are based on the 5e ruleset, the most popular version of the rulesets that exist.
Isn't 3.5e still more popular than 5e?


Maybe to the 3.5e fanboys it is, but in reality no

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Originally Posted by Silent Cetra

I mean the game is designed for fans of DnD, that is why they got the rights to make BG3 and call it DnD. If they change the DnD 5e ruleset for one, it will piss off the very fanbase the game is designed for. For two, it could potentially piss off WotC who own DnD and could yank any future DnD titles.

This game is designed for a specific audience.


Why you even think something so selfish? Every developer tries to sell their game for as many people as possible. Especially with big and expensive title. Not for some specific community.

Last edited by Dingor; 09/10/20 03:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dingor
Originally Posted by Silent Cetra

I mean the game is designed for fans of DnD, that is why they got the rights to make BG3 and call it DnD. If they change the DnD 5e ruleset for one, it will piss off the very fanbase the game is designed for. For two, it could potentially piss off WotC who own DnD and could yank any future DnD titles.

This game is designed for a specific audience.


Why you even think something so selfish? Every developer tries to sell their game for as many people as possible. Especially with big and expensive title. Not for some specific community.


How is that selfish? Every game has a target audience. FPS games are obviously aimed (haha pun intended) at those who enjoy FPS games. Do you go play COD and whine about there being guns in the game or having to shoot people?

Fighting games are aimed at competitive gamers primarily; they balance and design their games for those gamers.

Sim style games are aimed at those who enjoy simulations--ie, flight sim. You wouldn't go to flight sim and whine because it's too realistic, would you?

Historical games are aimed at history buffs. Would you go to the Kingdom Come: Deliverance website and cry that the combat is too realistic?

Racing games are aimed at those who enjoy racing. Would you go play Grand Turismo and cry about the fact that there are cars in the game?


And yet, when I point out that BG3 is aimed towards those that enjoy DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS, I am the selfish one? How about those crying about the core mechanics are the selfish ones, demanding the game studio change core mechanics that theydon't like, when the majority of the playerbase the game was DESIGNED FOR, like the mechanic they are whining about?

Tell me again how it is selfish to want to keep the game mechanics what A, was advertised, and B, is what the target audience enjoys?

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Originally Posted by Silent Cetra
Originally Posted by Dingor
Originally Posted by CrestOfArtorias
Baldurs Gate is a DnD story. Larian made clear the mechanics are based on the 5e ruleset, the most popular version of the rulesets that exist.
Isn't 3.5e still more popular than 5e?


Maybe to the 3.5e fanboys it is, but in reality no

That not the answer that I wanted. Maybe some statistics or like that. Not "it's true, believe me!" I stopped following DnD after 4e, so it's interesting.

Last edited by Dingor; 09/10/20 04:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dingor
Originally Posted by CrestOfArtorias
Baldurs Gate is a DnD story. Larian made clear the mechanics are based on the 5e ruleset, the most popular version of the rulesets that exist.
Isn't 3.5e still more popular than 5e?


No, not by a longshot. 5E is the most popular edition since the red box based on sales.

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Originally Posted by Dingor
Originally Posted by Silent Cetra
Originally Posted by Dingor
Originally Posted by CrestOfArtorias
Baldurs Gate is a DnD story. Larian made clear the mechanics are based on the 5e ruleset, the most popular version of the rulesets that exist.
Isn't 3.5e still more popular than 5e?


Maybe to the 3.5e fanboys it is, but in reality no

That not the answer that I wanted. Maybe some statistics or like that. Not "it's true, believe me!" I stopped following DnD after 4e, so it's interesting.

3.5 was designed for people who love spreadsheets more than role playing. Better tally up those 52 stacking bonuses that make the die roll irrelevant. Don't forget to multiply the result by 1.07 for eating a balanced breakfast! /barf.

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Originally Posted by fixxer
Just one thing i wanted to say that i hope Larian and others here are aware of regarding the massive influx of new voices here (mine included).

All it takes is a quick read through the forums, steam discussions, etc, to see there's clearly a massive pool of people that don't get the game, don't understand the concepts, don't understand what Early Access is, and don't understand Larians' vision for BG3.


I wrote a massive entry and then just decided to TLDR and keep it short and to-the-point.



TLDR:

Don't be so quick to make changes or take on feedback and make decisions on it this early on. Wait until the initial hype dies-down and the people that truly care about the game are able to not be drowned-out by the influx of new voices and streamer-clusters and people that don't really fully understand what's going on and feel like somehow just because they bought the game that they are owed changes based on how THEY want the game to be.





The downside of Larian taking this advice as the influx of voices may be legitimate criticism or input. Just because people might not come back to the forums does not make their voices any less important.

" there's clearly a massive pool of people that don't get the game, don't understand the concepts, "

Could that not mean that its not explained well enough in game? without examples im not sure what you referring to. If its people complaining about real 5e mechanics its one thing. But if they are generally confused its worth looking at. The who Early Access confusion tho is on them and not Larian.


"Don't be so quick to make changes or take on feedback and make decisions on it this early on"
First impressions are most important, and i can imagine if people are feeling like their voices are not being heard, even if its for Larian to say they wont change something, these people will leave. That doesn't make the latter comments made weeks from now any more valid then these peoples imo.

that being said their is nothing wrong with showing your verbal support like you have here. I get what your saying but we shouldn't be ignored just because its just came out recently.

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I would be suprised if Larian blindly took all feedback to heart immediately since that's like game development principle #1: Players usually don't know what is best for them, so look at every piece of feedback through a lens.

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It does seem like many of the changes in the various editions since AD&D focused more on number crunching ... instead of the old way where 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, in the new version we are going to say (1 + 1) + 1 = 3! Then people could get into arguments over whether their 26th level fighter could dish more damage than a 22nd leve mage, etc. But the heart of the game is still there, whether you are playing 5E rules or even the old Basic Set with Keep on the Borderlands. It was still fun when all weapons did 1d6 damage. Fun and fairness do not come from the rules, they come from way the adventures are set up where the characters use their skills.

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3.0/3.5 have so many books, and so many copycats like PF, and so many people who loved it and still do, that whatever butthurting is irrelevant. Pathfinder Kingmaker is proof enough, there was so much thirst for it that it sold even while being broken and full of bugs. Also badly optimized.

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Originally Posted by Dingor
Originally Posted by CrestOfArtorias
Baldurs Gate is a DnD story. Larian made clear the mechanics are based on the 5e ruleset, the most popular version of the rulesets that exist.
Isn't 3.5e still more popular than 5e?


5E is massively popular, thanks in no small part to the huge boom in Actual Play podcasts and shows. Just take a look at the game listings on a site like Roll20.

Anyway, back to OP. This isn't Larian's first rodeo. I do hope they change their minds about a few design choices I personally disagree with, like party size, and I hope they take a few ideas from the feedback that they may not have considered. But they've definitely got an excellent game at its core, and I think they realize that--and they aren't going to radically change direction when that distinct Larian style is what got them this gig in the first place.

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5e is the most watched version of D&D, not the most played. "Popularity" is a slippery metric.

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I really REALLY hope they listen to all of the 5e fans about mechanics. Please adhere to 5e rules as much as possible. Especially in regards to how surfaces work in 5e. Please.

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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
3.5 was designed for people who love spreadsheets more than role playing. Better tally up those 52 stacking bonuses that make the die roll irrelevant. Don't forget to multiply the result by 1.07 for eating a balanced breakfast! /barf.

Yeah right. Haha. In moving to 5e, the one big thing WotC removed from D&D was an emphasis on role-playing. 5e tolerates role-playing, but it does not encourage it all (as 2e and 3.5e surely did). 5e's hallmark, and the main reason for its popularity, is oversimplification of everything to make combat -- and that too hack 'n' slash combat -- the heart and soul of the system. 5e D&D is a tactical combat game with some role-playing elements mixed in.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
3.5 was designed for people who love spreadsheets more than role playing. Better tally up those 52 stacking bonuses that make the die roll irrelevant. Don't forget to multiply the result by 1.07 for eating a balanced breakfast! /barf.

Yeah right. Haha. In moving to 5e, the one big thing WotC removed from D&D was an emphasis on role-playing. 5e tolerates role-playing, but it does not encourage it all (as 2e and 3.5e surely did). 5e's hallmark, and the main reason for its popularity, is oversimplification of everything to make combat -- and that too hack 'n' slash combat -- the heart and soul of the system. 5e D&D is a tactical combat game with some role-playing elements mixed in.


Oh bull. 1000000% bull. 5e is HUGELY encouraging of role-play, far more than I've seen skimming through the other editions rulebooks. I mean my god, the earlier editions are so bogged down with needless crap. Without 10 hours of number crunching to do every little thing, there is a lot more room for role-play and 5e offers a lot in terms of player and DM agency. So yes, yes it does heavily encourage role play.

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I dont think it will be an issue, like their own work team have personal opinions over the game so dont think will become a chaotic blob of feedback.

As for 3.5 and 5E discussion, as much I loved 3.5, what brought to mainstream is 5E, is a very simplified (not in a negative way to say) system to introduce new players and have their fun with. Of course the downside is the customization of your character in combat due to being a very constraint system in order to avoid people having confusion understanding it and at the same time having to avoid Rule Court like it was a common thing in 3.5 because players and DM had different interpretations of the ruleset of certain things.\


Last edited by Takamori; 09/10/20 06:26 PM. Reason: edit: weird sentence correction
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
3.5 was designed for people who love spreadsheets more than role playing. Better tally up those 52 stacking bonuses that make the die roll irrelevant. Don't forget to multiply the result by 1.07 for eating a balanced breakfast! /barf.

Yeah right. Haha. In moving to 5e, the one big thing WotC removed from D&D was an emphasis on role-playing. 5e tolerates role-playing, but it does not encourage it all (as 2e and 3.5e surely did). 5e's hallmark, and the main reason for its popularity, is oversimplification of everything to make combat -- and that too hack 'n' slash combat -- the heart and soul of the system. 5e D&D is a tactical combat game with some role-playing elements mixed in.


Lol. 3E broke me when I had to adjudicate a Mordenkainen's Disjunction. An hour of my life wasted because people confuse minutia with depth. F that system. Its all just math puke and overpowered casters.

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Originally Posted by tsundokugames
5e is the most watched version of D&D, not the most played. "Popularity" is a slippery metric.


Its also the most played on various tabletops and the highest selling. If you have other metrics, feel free to trot em out. I'll allow you to return to poring over endless splatbooks to stack your competence, insight, profane, sacred, morale, circumstance, etc bonuses.

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I agree, ignore every feedback, except mine!
Just kidding of course.

We all can be wrong, because we can see just from a limited perspective. Even if many of us saying the same, that still can be wrong and ruin the game if implemented.

The risk is yours and so is the merit. Good luck picking just the useful feedback!

So far there is enough fun in this limited early access version that I can't get enough.
Kudos for that! Money well spent for sure.

Restarting 3rd time, because I messed up the builds on all my characters, but that's my fault, just learning this kind of game. Likely a comprehensive help for everything would be very much needed to convert new players into this kind of game. With patience and starting over can still work, learning each time. It's even more fun when knowing what does what and why.

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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Originally Posted by Slapstick
I'm actually more worried about the opposite, that everyone who is testing and voicing their opinion on how stuff works will be disregarded because they have committed to a design philosophy. So cantrips being overpowered, jumping disengage for everyone, etc. will stay despite pretty vocal opposition.
.


There are really so many people that dislike the bonus disengage for everyone? Because I vote for give shove and disengage as a bonus action for the tabletop too.

Do not remember the last time any player forfeit an attack to use the so-situational-that-is-nearly-useless shove action.




That would turn the game into a slow nightmare. First of all: You would bog down the speed of combat with contested athletics rolls. Secondly: Everyone, including the enemies, would be shoving people around like bouncy balls. If people are never using shove or grab etc in your games, its a problem with the GM not creating good terrain for your combats. Shoving a creature down a ledge/trap/lava etc is often way more useful than just doing an extra attack.

I dislike most of the changes Larian has done to the 5E ruleset. Bonus action disengage ruins the tactical aspect of the game for me. Shove does not need to be a bonus action either since they have created many maps where it is useful to spend your action on shoving. A good tactical game forces you to make choices, but these bonus actions let us do everything. We never have to weigh the option of attacking or disengaging. Or attacking or shoving. We can always do both. The only choice is which bonus action. And, yes, I know the bonus action becomes way more valuable for many classes later on. I also think this robs some classes of their identity. Rogues with their cunning action, Open hand monks for shoving etc.

I think a large outcry against the decisions Larian has made is justified. This feels more like a Larian game with some D&D elements sprinkled on top, than a D&D game. Why stress the fact that they have stayed true to the 5e ruleset and tabletop experience when I get a feeling they want to stay true to the DoS experience? Stuff like Firebolt setting dirt and stone on fire is silly.



Last edited by Ascorius; 09/10/20 11:13 PM.
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