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Originally Posted by Ascorius
You can solve the situation several ways after failing the skill roll.


Only one way it ends with me and its her dying. I asked you nicely 3 times, its time to die now LOL

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by Ascorius
You can solve the situation several ways after failing the skill roll.


Only one way it ends with me and its her dying. I asked you nicely 3 times, its time to die now LOL

Yeah, I even tried to be clever and steal the antidote from her, go stealth and sneak out of the room. She still attacked.

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I find that the game is overall rather enjoyable, and while I do have my gripes about the companions (mainly that lae'zel called me her "subordinate" when I'm the only reason that jerk isn't stuck in a cage) and other things, I don't find that the 5E ruleset is the problem here.

The 5E ruleset runs just fine in video games from my experiences, the problem is that Larian didn't actually stick to the way things work in 5E which is mucking stuff up quite a bit. I loved the surface effects in DOS2 and they really added something to the combat of that game, but in this game there are far too many of them and just about every single spell or cantrip creates them. Magic items are supposed to be fairly rare in the Forgotten Realms from my knowledge, meanwhile in BG3 I currently have a ludicrous amount of magic scrolls stashed away that, much like they did in DOS2, are probably going to go completely unused for the most part because they are, at least for the moment, almost entirely useless. Why would I use a scroll that lets me cast Shield of Faith when I have a cleric who can already cast it and an item that can also cast it for free? Which brings me to items, there are a stupid amount of magic items in this game that is making it feel less like D&D and more like DOS2. Which is pretty much everyone's big complaint here, it's not that the game is a bad game, it's that it doesn't play or feel like a Dungeons and Dragons game which is what we were told it would be.

I feel like what makes a D&D game isn't the world it's set in, it's not the races, it's not the classes, it's the way things work basically. People run homebrew campaign all the time that have class and race restrictions and are set in settings that aren't part of the Forgotten Realms, yet they still run and play like a D&D 5E game which keeps that feeling of playing D&D despite every other part of the game being different, and that's because they actually stick to the rules and the way things are set up. Meanwhile Larian has promised us a D&D 5E game, given us the Baldur's Gate setting, given us most if not all of the D&D 5E races and classes, but randomly decided to rewrite the rules so it doesn't feel like I'm playing D&D, it feels like I'm playing DOS2 all over again with an overhaul mod slapped onto it. We bought a game expecting Dungeons and Dragons, and got Divinity instead, which will understandably upset people, even those that liked Divinity.

The fix to this is pretty simple: stop trying to rewrite the rules. Make the spells play the way they should as written in the 5E rules, because changing them the way they did just broke them considerably. Also, stop making us roll 3 or 4 times to get the desired outcome when having one bad roll will cause the one we don't want (looking at you, Nettie). This game is currently suffering from the same thing as Fallout 4 basically. It's a good RPG game, but it's a terrible D&D game, and we were sold a D&D game. If this had been marketed and sold as another Divinity game the most of the complaints wouldn't exist, because it plays like an excellent Divinity game. The problem is, it wasn't marketed and sold as a Divinity game, it was marketed as a D&D game and most of us bought it expecting it to play like a D&D game. We expected spells that act the way they should, not having to convince people 3 times in a row on the exact same subject (seriously, if they are really stubborn on their point just make the skill check hard, don't make us have to do the same thing over and over it's redundant) and for it to feel like the world it was marketed as. Instead we have spells that act nothing like the way they should, a pointless amount of dice rolling for once conversation, and magic items that may as well just fall out of thin air and land in our pockets. My part is currently level 3 and every single one of them has at least 1 piece of magic equipment! Magic items don't feel special when they're all over the freaking place.

Last edited by Pupito; 12/10/20 12:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Pupito
I find that the game is overall rather enjoyable, and while I do have my gripes about the companions (mainly that lae'zel called me her "subordinate" when I'm the only reason that jerk isn't stuck in a cage) and other things, I don't find that the 5E ruleset is the problem here. The 5E ruleset runs just fine in video games from my experiences, the problem is that Larian didn't actually stick to the way things work in 5E which is mucking stuff up quite a bit. I loved the surface effects in DOS2 and they really added something to the combat of that game, but in this game there are far too many of them and just about every single spell or cantrip creates them. Magic items are supposed to be fairly rare in the Forgotten Realms from my knowledge, meanwhile in BG3 I currently have a ludicrous amount of magic scrolls stashed away that, much like they did in DOS2, are probably going to go completely unused for the most part because they are, at least for the moment, almost entirely useless. Why would I use a scroll that lets me cast Shield of Faith when I have a cleric who can already cast it and an item that can also cast it for free? Which brings me to items, there are a stupid amount of magic items in this game that is making it feel less like D&D and more like DOS2. Which is pretty much everyone's big complaint here, it's not that the game is a bad game, it's that it doesn't play or feel like a Dungeons and Dragons game which is what we were told it would be. I feel like what makes a D&D game isn't the world it's set in, it's not the races, it's not the classes, it's the way things work basically. People run homebrew campaign all the time that have class and race restrictions and are set in settings that aren't part of the Forgotten Realms, yet they still run and play like a D&D 5E game which keeps that feeling of playing D&D despite every other part of the game being different, and that's because they actually stick to the rules and the way things are set up. Meanwhile Larian has promised us a D&D 5E game, given us the Baldur's Gate setting, given us most if not all of the D&D 5E races and classes, but randomly decided to rewrite the rules so it doesn't feel like I'm playing D&D, it feels like I'm playing DOS2 all over again with an overhaul mod slapped onto it. We bought a game expecting Dungeons and Dragons, and got Divinity instead, which will understandably upset people, even those that liked Divinity. The fix to this is pretty simple: stop trying to rewrite the rules. Make the spells play the way they should as written in the 5E rules, because changing them the way they did just broke them considerably. Also, stop making us roll 3 or 4 times to get the desired outcome when having one bad roll will cause the one we don't want (looking at you, Nettie). This game is currently suffering from the same thing as Fallout 4 basically. It's a good RPG game, but it's a terrible D&D game, and we were sold a D&D game. If this had been marketed and sold as another Divinity game the most of the complaints wouldn't exist, because it plays like an excellent Divinity game. The problem is, it wasn't marketed and sold as a Divinity game, it was marketed as a D&D game and most of us bought it expecting it to play like a D&D game. We expected spells that act the way they should, not having to convince people 3 times in a row on the exact same subject (seriously, if they are really stubborn on their point just make the skill check hard, don't make us have to do the same thing over and over it's redundant) and for it to feel like the world it was marketed as. Instead we have spells that act nothing like the way they should, a pointless amount of dice rolling for once conversation, and magic items that may as well just fall out of thin air and land in our pockets. My part is currently level 3 and every single one of them has at least 1 piece of magic equipment! Magic items don't feel special when they're all over the freaking place.


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Definitely needs to be in multiple paragraphs. o.o

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Definitely needs to be in multiple paragraphs. o.o


Broke it up a bit, hope that's better!

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This definitely just sounds like you want Divinity: Original Sin 3. Larian announced Baldur's Gate 3 using 5e's ruleset, and you literally just want them to get rid of 5e's ruleset and make it D:OS3 with a Forgotten Realms skin.

I've got about 30 or so hours in EA, and for the most part, it's fairly faithful to the 5e system (although, there are no critical misses in combat, and a 1 on an ability check or save is not a critical fail, it's just a fail, per 5e rules).

Concerning the camp function, I find myself going back to camp fairly frequently - for once in 5e, I'm able to take a long rest whenever I want, so I'm expending all of my spell slots and abilities fairly frequently, it's a good feeling. Personally, I think the camp mechanic is fine as-is. Same with combat - Move > Action > Bonus Action > Pass seems, to me, to allow more freedom than D:OS's AP system, as movement eats up AP, and you're left with only enough AP for a single action, depending on AP cost. 5e's combat system just seems more flexible, more agile, with Pathfinder 2e's Action System being the best out of all three, to an extent (i.e. removing a potion and drinking said potion being two out of your three actions is kind of a PITA). Also, the fact that potions are bonus actions in BG3 is hilarious to me, as that's a common house rule as opposed to RAW, which makes them an action.

Overall, BG3's EA 5e system is fine, though, I do agree things like the Nettie encounter need to be a bit less dice-heavy - make it a single persuasion/intimidate/deception check. However, Nettie is a bad example, as it's not really something you're supposed to win at - it's a showcase of the world and its views on the Illithid and their tadpoles. If this situation happened to me in a real session of 5e, it would suck, but that's the way of Faerun - now I've gotta kill them, find another way to get the antidote, or die.

I would love it, though, if other characters could join in the conversation, or at least offer the help action. Actually, has anyone ever tried switching characters mid-conversation and using the Help action on the one doing the talking? I'll need to try that...

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Ty, much more readable, and can actually respond lol.

Instead of adapting to the rules that are written, they are changing way too much stuff which is just creating more of a mess. That doesn't include that the combat encounters seem to be made by a DM that doesnt understand the game and have never played it. Like a bunch of archers sitting up top throwing bombs, creating surfaces that bypass your AC and just lights you on fire. Most combat start with you being half hp bc of this while having low-ground. In Divinity it wasnt THAT much of an issue because 1) Armor system that protected you 2) You don't have a bedroll in this game to be full hp with a single click 3) Spells in that game rely on Cooldowns, not spell slots like in this game. Very limited resources in this game.

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Ty, much more readable, and can actually respond lol.

Instead of adapting to the rules that are written, they are changing way too much stuff which is just creating more of a mess. That doesn't include that the combat encounters seem to be made by a DM that doesnt understand the game and have never played it. Like a bunch of archers sitting up top throwing bombs, creating surfaces that bypass your AC and just lights you on fire. Most combat start with you being half hp bc of this while having low-ground. In Divinity it wasnt THAT much of an issue because 1) Armor system that protected you 2) You don't have a bedroll in this game to be full hp with a single click 3) Spells in that game rely on Cooldowns, not spell slots like in this game. Very limited resources in this game.


So first playthrough I was playing like it was PnP D&D and really had issues with the combat.

Second playthrough I played it like DOS:2 and it was a cakewalk. My biggest issue is they balanced it around expecting you to play like it's DOS:2

I am done with the EA for now, I'll check BG3 again after the next major patch.

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Based on the fact this is "Baldur's Gate 3" there is a degree of responsibility to capture the DnD ruleset. Removing Classes, overhauling the spell system, and entirely redoing the action economy are simply not options. Not just becauseof pissing off fans, but because it is likely outside of whatever contract exists between Larian and Wizards.

That being said, there are plentily of changes that can make 5E function better as a cRPG video game that don't undermine the spirit of the source material. I hate to see people rejecting a good step in the right direction because it isn't exactly how the tabletop system functions.

At the end of the day, we are not responsible for designing the game. Making huge sweeping overhaul suggestion don't normally help developers. Instead, I would strongly suggest focusing on the experience you like/dislike instead of the suggestions to fix it.

A lot of the feedback in this thread seems to come down to "Some classes have boring combat between level 1-4." A considerable number of people seem to agree on this point. Coming together and voicing this singular concern to Larian will be far more useful then each offering 50 unique suggestions to fix it.

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Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem

So first playthrough I was playing like it was PnP D&D and really had issues with the combat.

Second playthrough I played it like DOS:2 and it was a cakewalk. My biggest issue is they balanced it around expecting you to play like it's DOS:2

Yeah this to me has been the biggest indicator in BG3 that they didn't go hard enough on the DnD aspects of it. Ive had a similar experience of trying to play it like PnP... but it was awful. But if you play it like DOS2 its easy.

It's clear that they take a lot of influences from their Divinity series but they're making a DnD game. So it should probably be the opposite: Playing like its DOS2 is filled with issues, playing like its DnD is normal.

I'm not entirely sure what happened to the combat. They seem to want to make it more like divinity from what I can tell with cantrips as an example. So much surface effects.

Last edited by blazerules; 12/10/20 01:02 AM.
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That is true but it is an issue because it should be 5e first THEN divinity layer on top to spice and do home rules stuff, but instead its Divinity first then 5e on top which ruins the balance of the game.

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
That is true but it is an issue because it should be 5e first THEN divinity layer on top to spice and do home rules stuff, but instead its Divinity first then 5e on top which ruins the balance of the game.



Right now, to me, it feels like a DOS game set in the Forgotten Realms. They are really nailing the lore and world but not the gameplay, for me.

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Originally Posted by ste100
After 7+ hours i have a feeling that my playthrough is 100% random and not they way i've like to play - which is neutral good, quite peacuful and helpful to everyone around.
Just because I'am out of luck with dice roll i'am constantly involved in fights with the characters I would like to deal different way. At the moment I feel like renegade Shep in ME and i have no real control over my character.


This is potentially a major issue if people start to feel this is the case.

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Originally Posted by mahe4
I'm actually surprised, that so many of you want just a DOS3 instead of a BG3.
because that is exactly what OP is describing.
BG1 and 2 both used the dnd rule set from their time. At least they tried to adapt it as good as possible for their time.
the DND5e system is fine, even without a generous DM. there is no problem to use that system as basis for a computer game. look at pathfinder kingmaker. they took a much more complicated rule system and implemented it pretty faithfully and people love it.
yet here we are complaining, that BG3 would be boring if it was faithful to 5e rules. i really don't get it.

We are at a point, were one group wants a DOS3 and the other wants a BG3.
I don't want to be rude, but what about we wait for a DOS3 until BG3 is finished. because i think it would be great to see some thing new from larian, instead of an improvement from their other games.


So much this, there is a split on the forums that wants a more faithful implementation of 5E rules in BG3, all of which Larian has intended and advertised, and a bunch of people who seem to be expecting DOS3. Sorry, but this isn't that game, it isn't what Larian set out to do, or advertised. You are asking for a completely different game, whereas those wanting it to be more 5E are asking for the game we were promised.



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Well said. I am a huge fan of D&D 5e. I dm multiple games. I love the concept of a 5e computer game but it has felt so pass/fail I end up save scumming all the time.

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Originally Posted by Horrorscope
Originally Posted by ste100
After 7+ hours i have a feeling that my playthrough is 100% random and not they way i've like to play - which is neutral good, quite peacuful and helpful to everyone around.
Just because I'am out of luck with dice roll i'am constantly involved in fights with the characters I would like to deal different way. At the moment I feel like renegade Shep in ME and i have no real control over my character.


This is potentially a major issue if people start to feel this is the case.

And it seems strange to me. Why does failing a dialogue DC would make someone feel like a renegade Shepard? They aren't being renegade with their dialogues choices and intention, it's NPCs who are aggressive and attack them on failure (or whatever it is they are doing the player doesn't like). The player shouldn't be controlling NPCs in a D&D game, that's the GM's job.

I blame BioWare for players who think that they control 100% of the narrative flow via the dialogue choices. That's now how BG3 works anyway, failing a DC doesn't means you suddenly become evil, it just means you have to be creative if you don't want to kill everyone. Like using the knockout action or thinking a bit depending on the fight. Even the Owlbear doesn't need to be killed.

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Originally Posted by jaredruger
Well said. I am a huge fan of D&D 5e. I dm multiple games. I love the concept of a 5e computer game but it has felt so pass/fail I end up save scumming all the time.

I mean..that's how 5e w/no DM just rote pathing performs.

There's no 'fail forward' built into the 5e engine.

This is such an issue that there have been multitudes of games written to solve it.

Larian could put in passive checks and it would help, but then it would really step on the rogue's reliability features. D20+mods when the mods are less than 6 is going to feel like a coin flip, because statistically it is.

Now Larian can cut back on the failure trees, and allow you to have the information you need to walk the NPC through the logic and convince them w/out rolls - but that still doesn't address the core issue.

Especially since 5e really just says "give advantage" instead of trying to play with fiddly modifiers most of the time. Though recent sourcebooks have backed off that stance.

Have a source of advantage for skills rolls would help.

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Originally Posted by Milkfred
3. Players Want to Experience Everything

A solution to the Nettie thing is to just not talk to her. But players generally want to experience all the content they can in a single playthrough. Having a consequence be 'you just don't get to do something' is related to my first point. I'd put a few other things under this umbrella - like Perception checks as you're exploring - as being similarly annoying. What did I miss? Who knows, but now I have this feeling in the back of my head that I'm missing out on something. Was it something that I'd think was cool? A neat bit of lore? Something to make Lae'zel like me? I can tell myself that it was probably just two gold pieces and a fork, but my brain will insist otherwise.
[b]


I don't feel this way at all.

People miss things. Letting any character experience everything puts hard limits on uniqueness of characters.

There are a lot of solutions to the Nettie encounter, and different characters would handle it differently. That's how it should be.

Perception checks I guess can feel pretty bad, but I've found it EXTREMELY rare where a perception check pops and not a single party member catches it. The only time I've experienced that is the grease vents in the tomb, and it really didnt have much of an impact anyway.

If you take this logic further it seriously hampers game replayability and the ability for branching storylines.

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Originally Posted by Zpawn
Also I think somebody mentioned it earlier, but does it really feel rewarding when you pass a check by plain luck?

If you've found yourself in a situation where you shouldn't be, absolutely. I remember in the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion for BG I was approaching the end of Durlag's Tower and I needed a rest, but thought I'd open one more door to see what was through it, and it was a Demonknight.

I was doomed. I had no reason to think this was a winnable encounter. Everyone was hurt and I was nearly out of spells and my wizard-heavy party definitely wasn't prepared to fight a think with 95% magic resistance. In desperation, Viconia (who had killed Kivan earlier in the dungeon, so I was also down an archer) fired a Hold Monster at the Demonknight, and despite the fiend's 95% magic resistance, it landed. Held, it was defenseless before Coran's arrows (sped up by his Boots of Speed) and the three wizards collectively hurling 9 darts per round.

I won that fight, and I will remember it until the day I die. So yes, it does feel rewarding to pass checks by pure luck.

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