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#677747 07/10/20 12:24 AM
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Deja vu Offline OP
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I made my rogue and saw no options for expertise... is expertise not a thing in BG3? That’s huge for rogues!

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Proficiency in Thieves Tools is missing as well. It is just EA, but those things need to come back eventually.

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I agree... what’s the point of being a rogue when any one can do the same skills just as good as you and you can get thieves tools from a back ground

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I don't think you can get thieves tools proficiency from a background at this point either.

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I hope things change for rogues... they seem to be nerfed in several ways. Lack of expertise and ability to train in thieves tools and every one seems to cunning action dash.

Last edited by Deja vu; 07/10/20 03:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by Deja vu
I hope things change for rogues... they seem to be nerfed in several ways. Lack of expertise and ability to train in thieves tools and every one seems to cunning action dash.


Actually, the Cunning Action Dash is the only thing Rogues get that the others can't do. One of the thing's I liked best about playing Rogue was that I could use my bonus action to disengage or hide for that sweet advantage + sneak attack the following round. Now, everyone just Jumps/Disengages or Hides at the end of every turn. Rogue does feel a bit lackluster in it's current state.

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I’m really hoping they add in expertise.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Proficiency in Thieves Tools is missing as well. It is just EA, but those things need to come back eventually.


I was looking for threads on expertise and found your comment. I don't know how to break this to you but rangers can get thieves tool proficiency ;D . Rogues are officially dead frown

Last edited by HYPERBOLOCO; 12/10/20 02:46 AM.
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Originally Posted by HYPERBOLOCO

I was looking for threads on expertise and found your comment. I don't know how to break this to you but rangers can get thieves tool proficiency ;D . Rogues are officially dead frown


I tried to take my Rogue exploring to look for treasure. Alas, he could not make the jump, lacking the +3 modifier in Athletics which you get from SIXTEEN STRENGTH, because he is a ROGUE, not a fighter. His +5 to Acrobatics will let him do backflips*, but not to actually jump anywhere of significance. My Cleric, in her heavy armor, had to do all the exploring, becuase nothing says "I can jump really far" than wearing a set of plate mail.




* He also can't do backfips.

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So true. Dex based character should be able to jump as well. And atletics should make you jump more, not only STR bonifier.

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Wasn't Expertise introduced in NWN's?

The BG series if based on Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition rules.
This new 5e Ruleset is very strange to me.
NeverWinter Nights rule set was based on Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition rules. (Huge Difference)

But hey who cares about it - its 2020... this game should reflect the MMO's we have all played where they shower you in loot and the upscale functionality of the SWTOR cutscenes with bold print and perfect interactive immersion. If Larian wants to compete with any of the New fantasy F2P games he should play Elder Scrolls and get a familiar feel what a cut scene should look like. Just saying I think for 60.00 for early access and a game that is in maybe 2nd tier Alpha stage should be better. Rather than putting out the "NAME" all of us old schoolers that played this treasured series in the late 90's era of RPGs have come to expect a 3D game based on a 2D experience maybe it could have been better if Larian Studios lived up to the BG experience.

I still love this game and appreciate the content associated with the passion of the folks at Larian Studios who created this RPG. Perhaps, they ran out of funding to make this game what it should be and thats why they are selling at 60.00 and released it as it is.

Last edited by Indigo; 12/10/20 05:49 AM.
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I think thieve´s tools are now merged with sleight of hand. I picked the Urban hunter feature for my ranger and I ended up with sleight of hand skill.

That would make thieve´s tools a DEX skill only, unlike in PNP. Good news for rogues and dex characters i supposse.

Last edited by _Vic_; 12/10/20 06:45 AM.
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They've made it so that any class can pick locks / disarm traps with Sleight of Hand and a good dexterity score.

And I'd say thats better as up until now in DnD games you always needed a rogue. Now you can use a ranger or even a dex based fighter or such to get traps and locks with.

Rogues are still very useful, the extra bonus actions and sneak damage still make them very useful, I still don't want to remove Astarion from my group for those things alone.

I still find what I never need is a fighter, in fact you dont even need a healer in this game so far (potions are abundant).

Last edited by DumbleDorf; 12/10/20 10:55 AM.
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I somewhat disagree, I find that I need a fighter if only to have someone up from tanking the dmg.

As for the pick locks, disarm traps I think that's great that you don't NEED rogue but its also taken away a few of the rogues most iconic features as well as giving everyone a BA disengage, not scaling Sneak attack dmg and losing expertise. And I dont feel like the rogues been given much to substitute all those losses sadly. It feels like a pretty big nerf and takes away allot of the flavour and allure of the rogue class imo.

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Originally Posted by Zaemon
So true. Dex based character should be able to jump as well. And atletics should make you jump more, not only STR bonifier.


Yes, technically, the rules say that jumping long distances is based on Athletics, and Acrobatics is about tricks, not distance. But this does not feel good. I suppose this is why Astarion doesn't have his STR dumped.

EDIT: Proficiency in Athletics does not do ANYTHING to increase Jump distance. Only raw STR does. That's very bad and it means that you cannot reasonably make a Rogue who is both an Arcane Trickster, and can Jump to explore places. It's one or the other.


Originally Posted by Indigo
Wasn't Expertise introduced in NWN's?

The BG series if based on Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition rules.
This new 5e Ruleset is very strange to me.


Expertise is right there in the Player's Handbook, which is proving surprisingly helpful for this game.


Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
They've made it so that any class can pick locks / disarm traps with Sleight of Hand and a good dexterity score.


Originally Posted by _Vic_
I think thieve´s tools are now merged with sleight of hand. I picked the Urban hunter feature for my ranger and I ended up with sleight of hand skill.

That would make thieve´s tools a DEX skill only, unlike in PNP. Good news for rogues and dex characters i supposse.


  • First of all, that's still not acceptable, because by the Rules, Rogues are always proficient in Thieves Tools, and they are not required to take Sleight of Hand as one of their four skills, so you could build a Rogue without Sleight of Hand and end up missing out on the proficiency you're supposed to always get.
  • Secondly, picking locks is not listed on the tooltip for Sleight of Hand, and lockpicking rolls are not in the combat log as far as I know, so how can anyone tell if the bonus from Sleight of Hand is added?
  • Thirdly, no you don't. Urban Explorer grants the Ranger proficiency in Thieves Tools, but NOT Sleight of Hand, at least that's what it says in Character Creation. If it is different once you start the game, that's a bug.


There are two fixes: Rogues should always get proficiency in Thieves Tools listed as one of their CLASS FEATURES, or they always get Sleight of Hand proficiency, and can pick four other skills (giving them 5 instead of the normal 4). The first one is the simplest and the closest to the rules. This is not a complicated thing, nor should it be difficult to do.


Last edited by Stabbey; 12/10/20 12:44 PM. Reason: jumping
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Originally Posted by Turdburgler93
I somewhat disagree, I find that I need a fighter if only to have someone up from tanking the dmg.

As for the pick locks, disarm traps I think that's great that you don't NEED rogue but its also taken away a few of the rogues most iconic features as well as giving everyone a BA disengage, not scaling Sneak attack dmg and losing expertise. And I dont feel like the rogues been given much to substitute all those losses sadly. It feels like a pretty big nerf and takes away allot of the flavour and allure of the rogue class imo.


Shadowheart makes best tank.

Also grease actually works to keep stuff away.

Last edited by DumbleDorf; 12/10/20 12:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Deja vu
I made my rogue and saw no options for expertise... is expertise not a thing in BG3? That’s huge for rogues!


Expertise doesn't come in for rogues until 6th level.

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Originally Posted by Ramien
Originally Posted by Deja vu
I made my rogue and saw no options for expertise... is expertise not a thing in BG3? That’s huge for rogues!


Expertise doesn't come in for rogues until 6th level.

Eh no if you start as a rogue you gain expertise, in two skills at that.

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Last edited by CrestOfArtorias; 12/10/20 01:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ramien
Originally Posted by Deja vu
I made my rogue and saw no options for expertise... is expertise not a thing in BG3? That’s huge for rogues!


Expertise doesn't come in for rogues until 6th level.


Rogues get it at first AND 6th.

PHB, page 96

Quote

Expertise

At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your proficiencies and Thieves' Tools...
{snip}
At 6th level, you can choose two more of your proficiencies...



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