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I don't agree with OP on a lot of the things he said, but everyone is free to express their opinion.

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Originally Posted by Orbax
I have almost 400 hours in Pathfinder. Mainly because I crave anything TTRPG related. Its a slow game. Its really had to restart and go back to one on that thing. It is good, and has a lot of good stuff, but the pace. is. brutal.


Agreed... it is the diffinitive Pathfinder (and D&D 3.5, for that matter) video game experience right now, though... it's ludicrous how much rules, and content they managed to cram into this game, drawing from at least 10 pnp books. It also had a long run of many, huge patches until it really worked, though.

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Honestly I have to agree with the OP.

This is mostly because as a ruleset 5e is bland, uninspiring, has many issues, and I personally hate it. I also personally hated Pathfinder: Kingmaker, for much the same reasons.

I've never liked charisma as the go to skill for intimidation, believing it should be either Con, or strength based.

you don't have to kill anyone. Albiet damage is stupid much like my comp eating my text. doing 1 or 2 damage a crit success is 3 damage when your fighter is wielding a great axe, or if your wizard is wielding a dagger is beyond me. Sure your pulling blows but that axe has more impact then a dagger, and you know as a fighter that your still going to have to put more force behind a blow to knock someone out. Your not just trying to sneeze them into oblivion.

I feel most people were thinking it was going to be more like Skyrim which is a far simplier game, with no real consequences to your actions, nor any real choice. It's not. As well as kinda daunted by the amount of thought this game forces upon you unlike Skyrim where the tactics are always the same, and imo mind numbingly boring. Block slash, block slash. cast back up, cast run, switch block slash. yaaaaawn.

Then there is the ones all about this and that making the game to hard.... Honestly this is simply the choice of the player, and it's there Choice noone is forcing them to do run into a room with little health, no spells, no healing pots. They are making that choice, deal with it.

ie. I ChOOSE to walk into a place that made my companion comment that something sounded angry. I CHOOSE to continue forward with no healing spells, and everyone in my party injured. I CHOOSE to continue, I did that the GAME didn't make me. I DID IT, and paid the price my cleric and my fighter died, Wyll barely made his saving throw, and my rogue survived with 3 hp. What did it cost me all my healing pots, my ego, and laughter from my roomie who I told. Did I cry out that fights to haaard, nope because it was my Choice to do so, just like I choose to tell my roomie. Who cackled insanely the asshole, but I was laughing with him. How did I survive luck, what would I have done if it ended in a tpk. Rage quit? Oh hell no, I'd of went back with everyone full on spells, and healing and tried it again. Why because I CHOOSE to do something stupid, and possibly game ending, and I fucked up. Thats not on Larian, or the Game it's on me!

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Originally Posted by Ascorius
It is interesting to see the argument from the other side. For me, the game is worse off because of the heavy DoS influence. The hybrid system, a blend between DoS style and D&D, is probably the real culprit. People on both sides (not everyone of course) are unhappy with it. I think they need to go harder in either direction.

Yeah, this hybrid system SUCKS!
Make it "Baldurs Gate 3: DOS" or "Baldurs Gate 3: D&D".

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My issue with Nettie is that the quest log literally has telling her about your infection as a line item. I initially wasn't going to, but then I checked my log to see what else needed to be done and thought that was gating my progress. Optional objectives need to be clearly labeled as such if you want to encourage people to roleplay.

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Originally Posted by complexmath
My issue with Nettie is that the quest log literally has telling her about your infection as a line item. I initially wasn't going to, but then I checked my log to see what else needed to be done and thought that was gating my progress. Optional objectives need to be clearly labeled as such if you want to encourage people to roleplay.


agreed

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I very much concur with the OP in almost everything he wrote.


Especially the Disco-Elysium comparison of skill-checks: compared to BG3 those guys have reached 2020 when it comes to skill-checks in RPGs.

BG 3 in it's current state: the workaround is to assign the "reload last quick save" to your SPACE key ...

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Originally Posted by Kordiolus


Especially the Disco-Elysium comparison of skill-checks: compared to BG3 those guys have reached 2020 when it comes to skill-checks in RPGs.

What exactly do you like about Disco Elysium? I couldn't stand that game more than 15 minutes and I tried my hardest. It's like reading a novel. How are the skill checks different from BG3 there?


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Originally Posted by Deventh
Originally Posted by Kordiolus


Especially the Disco-Elysium comparison of skill-checks: compared to BG3 those guys have reached 2020 when it comes to skill-checks in RPGs.

What exactly do you like about Disco Elysium? I couldn't stand that game more than 15 minutes and I tried my hardest. It's like reading a novel. How are the skill checks different from BG3 there?



thats why skill checks are different though, disco is more graphic novel, everything to have an quick impact. VS BG3 which is more a long term thing with successes and failures not readily apparent.

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Originally Posted by Deventh

What exactly do you like about Disco Elysium? I couldn't stand that game more than 15 minutes and I tried my hardest. It's like reading a novel. How are the skill checks different from BG3 there?


Speaking for myself, DE has interesting failure states. Pass or fail a red check in that game, the story moves forward in fun and interesting ways.

Compared to BG3 the failure states are either "no, you don't get to do that" or "roll initiative". Maybe that's an artifact of this being a D&D game (i.e. a game fundamentally about killing monsters and taking their stuff).

Disco Elysium is a phenomenal game and I recommend it to everyone who likes RPGs. Seriously, give it another try. The writing is top-notch.

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The thing about D&D 5e is that your character isn't really built until they hit third level and doesn't come into their stride until 4th; a 4th level character gives you about the right amount of customisation options to make sure that character can succeed at the things you want them to be able to succeed at. Additionally, most people I've played with would agree that the point buy method produces characters that are a little too weak at what they're supposed to be good at to be fun. Having a max of 15 in abilties before modifiers is a little too low for a character to be focused around that ability. I think most people would like to roll their abilities so that they can get a good 17 or 18. But, 5e isn't the same as, say 3.5e when the abilities you rolled basically determined what type of class you could play, or 2e which was all over the place and even more restrictive. Like pointlessly restrictive.

Anyway you get to 3rd really quickly in BG3 which is good.

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Originally Posted by Buttery_Mess
The thing about D&D 5e is that your character isn't really built until they hit third level and doesn't come into their stride until 4th


This is a bad design choice. Maybe it works in tabletop, but in a video game it's boring. To make matters worse, combat at low levels is rocket tag. This isn't even a new problem - Planescape: Torment started at level 5.

Quote
I think most people would like to roll their abilities so that they can get a good 17 or 18.
It wouldn't be a BG game without spending 30 minutes at chargen rerolling ability scores to get >95.

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Originally Posted by clavis

you don't have to kill anyone. Albiet damage is stupid much like my comp eating my text. doing 1 or 2 damage a crit success is 3 damage when your fighter is wielding a great axe, or if your wizard is wielding a dagger is beyond me. Sure your pulling blows but that axe has more impact then a dagger, and you know as a fighter that your still going to have to put more force behind a blow to knock someone out. Your not just trying to sneeze them into oblivion.



I know this is going to come out sounding bad but I honestly have no idea what you are saying here...It sounds like you are complaining that the minimum for a Great Axe Crit is 3 damage?

That isn't really the case, the minimum is 1 + Str Mod, or for a Crit 2 + Str Mod. If a Character is (a) a Fighter and (b) using a Greataxe, I would assume that it has Strength as one of it's highest stats, so at level 1 that would be either a +2 or +3 (with potential to jump to +3 or +4 at level 4), meaning that your minimum damage would be c.3-4 and a Crit would be between c.4-5 damage. Yes a Dagger has a similar profile (assuming that your hypothetical Wizard has a Dex mod of +2, which they probably ought to) dealing 1d4 + Dex Mod as a finesse weapon. This gives the same minimum values for a hit and for a crit,

However one has to remember that a dagger has a 25% chance of dealing that minimum damage, whilst a Greataxe only has 8.33% chance of rolling minimum damage (and this ignores the fact that technically a Critical in 5E is not "Roll the Damage Dice and Double the Number" but "Roll the Damage Dice Twice and Add them together" which would mean that the chance to roll two ones on a dagger is actually 1/16 = 6.25% whilst the chances of rolling two ones on a greataxe are only 1/144 = 0.7%)

Additionally, as a fighter one would assume that you picked a Fighting Style relevant to your weapon, meaning Great Weapon Fighting which specifically states "When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an Attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2.". This means that the chances of rolling two 1's on a Critical drop to a rather insignificant number (the dice roll calculator I was using couldn't even factor that low, instead just giving a value of 0.0)

However, all of this completely ignores the fact that if your Wizard is in melee and using a dagger in 5e then you have bigger problems than the damage being done, namely a soon to be dead wizard.




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Originally Posted by praxidicae
Originally Posted by clavis

you don't have to kill anyone. Albiet damage is stupid much like my comp eating my text. doing 1 or 2 damage a crit success is 3 damage when your fighter is wielding a great axe, or if your wizard is wielding a dagger is beyond me. Sure your pulling blows but that axe has more impact then a dagger, and you know as a fighter that your still going to have to put more force behind a blow to knock someone out. Your not just trying to sneeze them into oblivion.



I know this is going to come out sounding bad but I honestly have no idea what you are saying here...It sounds like you are complaining that the minimum for a Great Axe Crit is 3 damage?

That isn't really the case, the minimum is 1 + Str Mod, or for a Crit 2 + Str Mod. If a Character is (a) a Fighter and (b) using a Greataxe, I would assume that it has Strength as one of it's highest stats, so at level 1 that would be either a +2 or +3 (with potential to jump to +3 or +4 at level 4), meaning that your minimum damage would be c.3-4 and a Crit would be between c.4-5 damage. Yes a Dagger has a similar profile (assuming that your hypothetical Wizard has a Dex mod of +2, which they probably ought to) dealing 1d4 + Dex Mod as a finesse weapon. This gives the same minimum values for a hit and for a crit,

However one has to remember that a dagger has a 25% chance of dealing that minimum damage, whilst a Greataxe only has 8.33% chance of rolling minimum damage (and this ignores the fact that technically a Critical in 5E is not "Roll the Damage Dice and Double the Number" but "Roll the Damage Dice Twice and Add them together" which would mean that the chance to roll two ones on a dagger is actually 1/16 = 6.25% whilst the chances of rolling two ones on a greataxe are only 1/144 = 0.7%)

Additionally, as a fighter one would assume that you picked a Fighting Style relevant to your weapon, meaning Great Weapon Fighting which specifically states "When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an Attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2.". This means that the chances of rolling two 1's on a Critical drop to a rather insignificant number (the dice roll calculator I was using couldn't even factor that low, instead just giving a value of 0.0)

However, all of this completely ignores the fact that if your Wizard is in melee and using a dagger in 5e then you have bigger problems than the damage being done, namely a soon to be dead wizard.





If your trying to subdue the person the game doesn't factor in most of your stats, or even damage from your weapon. I've tried knocking out multipule people vie the button think it's near dash? Any way it's the second to last button on the bottom. If I was smart enough to remember how to screen shot something I'd show you it, alas I failed my intelligence roll bloody - 2's. Anyway you push the button and your damage drops like a (redacted do to adult comment) well it literally turns it into nerfed unarmed damage.

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Ah, I gotcha. In that case I think it makes sense. You can't really subdue someone with your Greataxe...or rather when you do you aren't likely to get any answers out of them afterwards. I assume that this basically means you are making an unarmed strike against the opponent as the only non-lethal method you have, and unless you are a Monk or have the Tavern Brawler Feat (which I don't think has been implemented here) in 5E an unarmed attack is a flat 1 + Str Mod damage.

I'll give it a try to see, but if this is what is happening then I can see a good reason for it from a fluff point of view.

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Originally Posted by praxidicae
Ah, I gotcha. In that case I think it makes sense. You can't really subdue someone with your Greataxe...or rather when you do you aren't likely to get any answers out of them afterwards. I assume that this basically means you are making an unarmed strike against the opponent as the only non-lethal method you have, and unless you are a Monk or have the Tavern Brawler Feat (which I don't think has been implemented here) in 5E an unarmed attack is a flat 1 + Str Mod damage.

I'll give it a try to see, but if this is what is happening then I can see a good reason for it from a fluff point of view.


yeah I can see using unarmed attack, but you can also use unless they changed it in 5e a weapon for simple subdual damage. We'll say half damage though believe it's still just straight damage in 5e, my fighter has a +2, or +3 depending on which I'm using. Gale I believe has a negative to his strength, as does Fang boy? so they shouldn't be hitting like my fighter and my crits should be 5 or 6's. every attack no matter who I used was either 1 or 2. with crit being 3. it made me cry.

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For all the people, who want to take 5e out of the game and make it more like DOS.

You realize that the DOS franchise already exists, its massively popular, and is Larian's flagship franchise, right? Which means that DOS3 is definitely going to come out at some point.

Why not let DnD fans have their game, instead of demanding for a DOS clone when we already know we'll be seeing another DOS game in the future?

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Originally Posted by Milkfred

The background is simple: the player, seeking to be healed of their brainworm, goes to see a healer - Nettie. Nettie promptly poisons them and the player is faced with an option: pass multiple skill checks to get the antidote from Nettie or die. Alternatively, the player can kill her or pickpocket her.


I chose to lie to her and not tell her the truth initially. The only reason I went back was because I did feel the game was pushing me in this direction. If once I had lied they removed other options to seek her help? I'd have been fine with this and possibly even preferred it. At this point I also knew of another druid healer who was missing (and maybe I could find) as well as another option.

Originally Posted by Milkfred

DC 5 feels terrible when you fail. A little bit of randomness is fine, but I think BG3 is bit too heavily loaded towards the dice roll.

And you don't even get experience for making the skill checks either. Oh, and the fact that so many of them are just DC10 (aka coin toss) is another related problem. I assume a lot of the numbers can and will be changed, but the underlying structural issue of it not being fun or interesting to fail is a deeper problem.


But aren't all games dependent on dice check? They are not as obvious as the ones in BG3 are made to be, but it's still a form of RNG. You can fail when attempting to persuade etc in OS games. Sometimes they just don't allow you to try, but I assumed it's because your stat is so low there is no "roll" that will make it possible.


Originally Posted by Milkfred

3. Players Want to Experience Everything

A solution to the Nettie thing is to just not talk to her. But players generally want to experience all the content they can in a single playthrough.


I don't expect this at all especially in the most recent Larian RPG's. In fact, I prefer RPG's that aren't on rails. There are quests in OS2 that I have "failed" and I'm okay with it. Also in OS2 there are at least 2 ways to escape Ft Joy. How can people choose multiple ways of escaping since they either escape or they don't? I smashed the brain during the BG3 intro so maybe in another play through I won't.

As for not wanting to kill NPC's that aren't red - there is some truth in that. But then I tried to kill the first druid after Arabelle was killed (didn't go too well). Bad guys aren't always "red" and sometimes we get to choose who the "bad guys" are.



Originally Posted by Milkfred

6. Combat Downgrade

Move/Standard Action/Free Action is a step down from Divinity: Original Sin 2's AP-oriented combat system. BG3's combat is perfectly fine, but it's also not nearly as interesting. Again, the issue is that BG3 is doing it as close to tabletop as possible. Some people are upset over the surfaces being so common, but I think without them the combat would be far less interesting than it is.



I never played the original BG games and have only played OS series, but I'm actually interested in BG3's combat precisely because it's not the same as OS2. Also, I am not well acquainted with 5e systems since I didn't play a lot of D&D so this isn't just me protecting a game system I enjoy. If anything, I enjoy learning new things, learning to work with a different set of rules, and that's what I've had to do (5e, weapon stats, etc).

You said you didn't camp much on your play through and maybe that's the problem. I too tried to camp as little as possible due to NPC's stressing the tadpole maturation timeline. Because of this I rarely played around with special abilities and just used whatever ability meant I didn't need to camp to regain. But maybe Larian expects us to use these abilities or assumes we will want to and it is okay to camp more? So while it may seem like some of this is poor on Larian's part I also notice that I chose my play style based on the NPC comments which is on me!

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The problem is...we all know Larian will probably never go full on 5e. Unless EA goes through an incredible change... I actually woulndt mind that.
In the current mix we have a weird symbiosis of DOS2.5 and 5e, Id rather it be more DOS2.5.
Go full on 5e or just don’t do it, thats my take anyways.

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Originally Posted by clanpot
Originally Posted by Buttery_Mess
The thing about D&D 5e is that your character isn't really built until they hit third level and doesn't come into their stride until 4th


This is a bad design choice. Maybe it works in tabletop, but in a video game it's boring. To make matters worse, combat at low levels is rocket tag. This isn't even a new problem - Planescape: Torment started at level 5.


Yup. Playtesters pointed this out.

Mike Mearls stated multiple times, they expected you to do 1-3 once, and then just start at level 3 after that. Level 3 was the new level 1, they wanted it to be a 'simple' game at level 1 with very few choices and things to learn. And then they left spellcasters with full casting + cantrips at level 1 instead of starting with only a cantrip, then specialty, then getting 1st level at level 3 because gods forbid casters be on the same footing.

Of course, as we've seen, no one skips to level 3 - certainly not any of the branded products.

Which is just annoying.

As for 'pure' 5e - great. Do it. Watch the general public bound hard off the 'pure' 5e rules because they are mediocre and shallow at best when TTRGP scene has dozens of complex and rewarding games to go play.

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