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#692556 13/10/20 12:37 AM
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I'm sad rogues are so lackluster in EA atm. So here's a load of suggestions for them.

-Expertise, why don't we have this? Its part of why rogues in 5e are 'skill monkeys' and make up for how squishy they can be in a fight.

-Cunning Action/Hide Rework, the fact every class can hide as a bonus action bugs me, one of the best things Rogues have in means of staying alive in a fight is their ability to hide AND attack in the same turn compared to their more martial counter parts. That and disengage.

-Sneak Attack, kinda wondering why this needed a button at all? Wouldn't it be better to just be seamlessly worked into attacks where if the factors match up and allow for it, it just adds sneak attack dice to damage?


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Originally Posted by Grim Gaddy
I'm sad rogues are so lackluster in EA atm. So here's a load of suggestions for them.

-Expertise, why don't we have this? Its part of why rogues in 5e are 'skill monkeys' and make up for how squishy they can be in a fight.

-Cunning Action/Hide Rework, the fact every class can hide as a bonus action bugs me, one of the best things Rogues have in means of staying alive in a fight is their ability to hide AND attack in the same turn compared to their more martial counter parts. That and disengage.

-Sneak Attack, kinda wondering why this needed a button at all? Wouldn't it be better to just be seamlessly worked into attacks where if the factors match up and allow for it, it just adds sneak attack dice to damage?



+1 to all.


Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 Veteran.

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Heh, you aren't asking for a rework, you're just asking for it to work as it is supposed to. smile

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I agree with those, but I don't find them lackluster at all, actually kinda OP, but doesn't give the feeling of playing a classic DnD rogue. Thief with 3 attacks with dex bonus to damage, and one being sneak, is at 32,5 avarage dpt, not considering accuracy, but at level 3 this is pure stupid, a fighter using action surge and the +d8 on both attacks does 33 avarage, but once per long rest, every other turn will be less than halth the rogue's current avarage.

pgmoro #692661 13/10/20 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by pgmoro
I agree with those, but I don't find them lackluster at all, actually kinda OP, but doesn't give the feeling of playing a classic DnD rogue. Thief with 3 attacks with dex bonus to damage, and one being sneak, is at 32,5 avarage dpt, not considering accuracy, but at level 3 this is pure stupid, a fighter using action surge and the +d8 on both attacks does 33 avarage, but once per long rest, every other turn will be less than halth the rogue's current avarage.


Want to give a bit more detail on how you get those numbers?

Muldeh #692700 13/10/20 02:26 AM
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I think he used the word average a little freely, and meant that on a no miss and good roll/crit. Personally I find it hard to average properly with all the misses you can get sometimes... I had to reload because of super unlucky streaks sometimes and it can happen to all classes.

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You're right with all your points.
There is also a severe issue where a rogue can't move out of cover to sneak attack someone if they enter ANYONE'S line of sight in the process. Normally you should be able to move out of stealth and sneak attack if you can reach the target within your turn.
There are many other missing actions like dodge, and any use for acrobatics in combat is still needed.
We should also gain cover from enemies, like being in a doorway engaged with one or two should provide half cover against anyone behind them trying to attack us.
Grappling isn't in yet, but using that or a "pin down" action should exist to counter the shove. (If grappling relies on STR an alternative action would be nice.)

pgmoro #692971 13/10/20 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by pgmoro
I agree with those, but I don't find them lackluster at all, actually kinda OP


funny and now try to compare it to a larian ranger.

hint; ranger can do all the rogue can, but he has 1 more skill prof and much better incombat

arion #693012 13/10/20 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by arion
Originally Posted by pgmoro
I agree with those, but I don't find them lackluster at all, actually kinda OP


hint; ranger can do all the rogue can, but he has 1 more skill prof and much better incombat


the rogue is right now, without a shadow of a doubt, the highest DPR marhsall class. Why?

Lets compare Ranger4 to rogue 4. Considering maximized builds obviously. So DEX18 for the ranger with archery style. DEX18 for the rogue, he picks up Abilitymod on offhand and goes Thief for second bonus action.

Hit-modifier:
Rogue comes in at Prof+2, DEX+4 for +6 over all
Ranger comes in at Prof+2, DEX+4, archery +2 for +8 over all.

Avarage damage on hit:
Rogue sneak: d6 + 2d6 + 4 = 14,5 avarage
Rogue nonsneak: d6+4 = 7,5 avarage
Ranger bow: d8+4 = 8,5 avarage

Considering buffs: Not talking buffs from third characters, because both could get them. The ranger however can go for hunters mark for an additional D6 on hit, bringing his damage to an avarage of 12.

Number of attacks:
The rogue has 3 attacks (sneak and 2 bonus action offhands), the ranger has 1 attack with his bow.
Calculating avarage damage against AC19.
*Expecting both characters to have advantage, because in melee the rogue can just always walk around the enemy in his turn for backstab. The ranger can just move up a cliff. arguably the rogue has a little easier access to advantage but lets face it: You do always have advantage in BG3 or you screwed up.

Rogue against AC 19:
Roll required: 13. Chance including advantage: 64%.
Avarage damage: (14,5 x 64%) + 2(8,5 x 64%)= ~20 damage a turn

Ranger against AC 19 including hunters mark:
Roll required: 11. Chance including advantage: 75%.
Avarage damage: 12 x 75% = ~9 damage a turn.

The lower the enemy AC the higher the advantage for the rogue obviously, since the difference of 2 in hit rolls comes to bare the less, the closer you are to a hitroll of 2 required, as its squared due to advantage.





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One might argue the TWF ranger would be better, because he has 2 weapons to proc his hunters mark, but he isnt.
the bonus damage (2x d6) is equal to the sneak bonus (2d6). He gives up one round of TWF to selfbuff. also he no longer has a better hitmodifier.
So overall he can not close the gap against the 3 attacks of the rogue.

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Originally Posted by DuderusMcRuleric

Lets compare Ranger4 to rogue 4.


nice math(no)

and now try ingame

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this is what i did ingame. Ingame is even easier, since your rogue (astarion) has an auto hit attack in his pockets wich also heals him. So not giving up DPR if you need to heal. also you get easy access to a misty step item and an invisibility item and an improved move speed item. With trick dash + dash + move + jump in one round he can easily cross like 3-4 monitor widths in a single turn if he needs to reposition and he never has issues with blocked line of fire.
Its really busted, he easily outdamages my selfmade fighter by a landslide. And he is not even magical weapons since for some reason i did not get my hands on magical shortswords or daggers. dunno why that is. he just runs 2 basic short swords.

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Originally Posted by DuderusMcRuleric
this is what i did ingame. Ingame is even easier, since your rogue (astarion) has an auto hit attack in his pockets wich also heals him. So not giving up DPR if you need to heal. also you get easy access to a misty step item and an invisibility item and an improved move speed item. With trick dash + dash + move + jump in one round he can easily cross like 3-4 monitor widths in a single turn if he needs to reposition and he never has issues with blocked line of fire.
Its really busted, he easily outdamages my selfmade fighter by a landslide. And he is not even magical weapons since for some reason i did not get my hands on magical shortswords or daggers. dunno why that is. he just runs 2 basic short swords.


that all fine, but again its not about numbers, dpr, math etc

it all about game and location design, like example goblins ambush in the village at the beginning, good luck to make these attacks(you math) by rogue. ranger simple can it solo with bow, or take Op spider and dont even will sweat

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i dont understand your issue, you just run into them and beat the crap out of them? you even have allies wich tank for you. i used all my resources to get in faster, so none of the NPC dies. and it aint a problem whatsoever.

I generally agree, that you cant "math out" every encounter. But this is for sure the game where it is the easiest to get those numbers. you basicly always have advantage for free, hit rates are so insanely high, that bad RNG comes into account very rarely in fights, as the diviation is lowered by the rerolls you get thrown at with like confetti.

Did i sometimes not go melee? ofcause.
for example if you finished the 3 bosses in the goblin dungeon, you will have to clear the entire goblin camp.
So you just go upstairs murder the sleeping ones, set a fire at the stairs and shot -> move in cover. move out of cover -> shoot -> move into cover. Obviously astarion can not go down and tank all 20 of them, thats not gonna work. But those encounters rarely happen. And in those encounters he still out DPSes rangers, because he is upstars -> advantage -> sneak attack -> higher damage. Heck even DEX9 shadowheart outdamages my ranger, as she is throwing oil and alchemist fires instead of using a bow. Bows are a trap in this game. never forget, that any giving character, regardless of skills and abilities, is still an alchemist in that game.

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all i can say you cant play rangers if most usseles companion in EA outdamage him.

at this note i stop offtop


Last edited by arion; 13/10/20 08:20 AM.
Muldeh #693112 13/10/20 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Muldeh
Heh, you aren't asking for a rework, you're just asking for it to work as it is supposed to. smile


Correct.

I hope they are listening.

Scaling/balancing in the game is going to be very difficult with these kinds of deviations from core.

arion #693124 13/10/20 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by arion
all i can say you cant play rangers if most usseles companion in EA outdamage him.

yeah or you dont use the game mechanics to your advantage smile
even a ranger itself deals more damage by not using a bow. you have funny little bombs, that apply d4 dots aoe even if you miss smile a bow cant compete. and you can combine that with little not-bombs, that turn into bombs if the see the slightest spark of fire. and big bombs standing around everywhere. you can ofcause choose to use a stone, instead of a grenade if it fits your playstyle more.

kept shadowheart cause i wanted to beat her story dialogue options. But really, no character is useless in this game, as everyone is an alchemist. At least up to the levels in EA. In later parts of the game when stronger spells and multiattacks kick in, i hope the bomb throwing thing get powercreeped but right now... throw them bombs. you dont need weapons to beat EA if you can find enough of them.

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@DuderusMcRuleric Which class does the most damage at lvl 4, without all the feats and races might be rogue, but it is useless information. Lets compare that rogue to a relatively optimized ranger in 5e at lvl 5. Human variant with 16 dex sharpshooter and crossbow expert as feats. Horizon Walker. He uses 2 hand crossbows. And his fighting style is archery. Average damage on the three shots he can fire is 4.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3+3+10+10+10=51 damage. I know this is before miss chance, and it will fall quite a bit, but math on taking -5 with sharpshooter is well known. And missing becomes rarer and rarer the higher you get in level because of bounded accuracy.

Rogues with an extra offhand attack does not do much. As a rogue I would rather have expertise. And if I want to do massive damage with a rogue, I am going to multiclass.


Muldeh #693182 13/10/20 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Muldeh
Heh, you aren't asking for a rework, you're just asking for it to work as it is supposed to. smile


+1

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Originally Posted by Ascorius
@DuderusMcRuleric Which class does the most damage at lvl 4, without all the feats and races might be rogue, but it is useless information. Lets compare that rogue to a relatively optimized ranger in 5e at lvl 5. Human variant with 16 dex sharpshooter and crossbow expert as feats. Horizon Walker. He uses 2 hand crossbows. And his fighting style is archery. Average damage on the three shots he can fire is 4.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3+3+10+10+10=51 damage. I know this is before miss chance, and it will fall quite a bit, but math on taking -5 with sharpshooter is well known. And missing becomes rarer and rarer the higher you get in level because of bounded accuracy.

Rogues with an extra offhand attack does not do much. As a rogue I would rather have expertise. And if I want to do massive damage with a rogue, I am going to multiclass.



yeah disregarding the fact that much of this stuff is not actually in the game laugh So whats the point? not even sharpshooter feat is in the game right now and im not sure if it will come online. And in DnD the rogue can not get a bonus action for 2 offhand attacks in 1 round. so how does that even compare?
this is a feedback for the game of BG3. not for DnD5e. They diviate from DnD5e quite a lot. I would not argue rogue is the best DPS in DnD. No way.

This is also why even shadowhard can out DPS a ranger with a bow in ranged combat iwth fkin alchemist fires. you tend to always hit at least 2 ppl. most of the time 3. it deals bludge on hit +d4 initial fire + d4 fire for up to 3 rounds. No hit roll required for the fire damage. coming up at potential 9d4 damage if you hit 3 people + battlefield control effect if the enemy needs to cross the fire.
you pull that off very reliably. Wich you honestly dont need. I just reloaded the fight with the traders north of the gnolls and solo´d them with astarion. its not even hard. hiding mid combat so the enemy can not attack you is pretty fkin brilliant and he has highest DPS.
Hence why it is a game feedback for BG3. The rogue is very strong combatwise is this game. Not talking about what he can do in actual DnD. The thread was about the rogue are lackluster in BG3. they are absolutely not, they are freaking murder machines. The best one you can get at this point in time.
In that fight there are 4 level 4 characters against astarion. my lowest hit chance in 84%. you trigger sneak damage every round for free (just walk around them). yes, you need to chug a potion maybe, since you have no healer. or just eat pork. But thats it. you just kill them solo. And not with an optimized custom minmax bla character. Just with the story NPC astarion at level4.

Its fair to say rogues are not what they should be DnD. But thats basicly name of the game. Very little is as it should be in DnD. This is not a PC adaptation of DnD. That is a larian/divinity style game that lends some core mechanics from DnD.



Last edited by DuderusMcRuleric; 13/10/20 09:51 AM.
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