Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side

Now, I'm creating this because Larian stated they wanted people to be evil and to test it to make it worth being evil, and having a satisfying story. For this particular discussion I'm gonna focus on the Goblin vs Grove situation, so FULL SPOILERS for that.

I'm gonna start off by saying right off the bat, when you go back to the tieflings and go "im joining the goblins", all my companions disapproved except Astarion, and I mention this because they said we will be getting evil/neutral companions for EA and from the start of being evil the player is punished. If these so called Evil companions disagree with me, then there is a few major issues with the evil storyline, which is what I want to talk about.

Now, from the the player is abducted and had a tadpole inserted into their eye and the companions they meet are adamant about having this removed, and that's fine. But the narrative doesn't really PUSH you towards being evil and neither do these companions. Now the biggest lead you have for this is Halsin, and i would consider him to be on the "good" side, where I should side with the grove to get his help. What incentive is there for me to help the goblins? The game doesn't really do anything to push their agenda and make you want to do. A smart evil character would still help Grove and get Halsins help because they want to figure out what's going on, what the option we have now is stupid evil instead. We are never enticed with anything to go join the Absolute. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get out of helping the goblins and Minthara kill everyone. There isn't an enticing promise of answers or rewards for going down that path vs. just helping the refugees and finding Halsin to heal you from the tadpole. Right now the only reason you would help is because "fuck all these refugees and druids". Again, stupid evil IMO.

Everything up to that point in the game (being kidnapped by Illithids, all your companions explaining what the tadpoles do, and being concerned with getting healed) reinforces that we should want nothing to do with the Absolute because they violated us and will rid us of our free will if we don't get rid of the parasite. No type of evil character would want to help the goblins because we get nothing. Hell I lost Wyll after that, which is cool, and a good consequence, but that's it. I gained nothing from this it seems like. Now, I will say I'm interested in the story still. I wanna know what happens if I follow this trail, will i see Minthara again, will she be a companion or a returning side character? There is potential but just to see what could happen, but there are no rewards. You don't get any extra powers from it, nothing about healers (the priestess Gut wants to kill me bc I took the "Drow" option with sleep potion and then she goes "oh this will hurt"). I guess it was cool I had sex with her? But I mean at that night 3 of my companions were ready to sleep with me, and I lost 1 companion and gained...nothing.

Now I think the best way to fix it would be to have Minthara or someone else meet you REALLY early on and tell you, maybe entice you about the powers you can get. Have her tell you about the true souls, she shows you the power you can get if you use the tadpole, but right now there isn't anything like it. No character storywise would want to help goblins, even an evil one (smart evil one). It's kind of funny when the tiefling "Zevlor" asked me why I was doing this and i was like "uhhh....Bc Larian told me to? Whoops!" In the end, the Evil storyline for Grove vs Goblin needs more rewards and enticing. Why should my character risk dealing with them instead of looking for a healer, especially Halsin who is the best lead. Should I be doing it bc I got to bang the drow lol?

Would love to hear other peoples thoughts on what they think of this, and maybe ways to fix it, that way Larian can add/make some changes to make the evil side satisfying.

I agree, even an evil character with at least 8 INT would choose druids in this situation. It would serve their interests better to befriend the druids.

You can be a bit extra evil and kill Kagha by accusing her of being a shadow druid, get some more blood goin. Although, I wonder if you can kill Halsin and try to forge an alliance with the evil druids *thinking face*

I believe you can, sort of? Like that storyline would involve Kagha still locking the Grove, but that still closes the avenue of Halsin being the best healer, which is what any type of character would be pursuing. I can see an evil character going after the power of the absolute/tadpole, but for our characters that's never really made clear. No incentive to go for the power bc we don't know about the power. Our characters are only told gruesome stories about about how you become a mindflayer LOL

haha true. you are right though, you have to be short-sighted right now to play hard core evil. i met the tiefling kids, they said theyd be in baldurs gate. *chin scratch* they do look like theyd be crappy and get in with the thieves guild...screw it, have the idol. I hate the druids anyway. No matter how sneaky you are with the idol, if it gets interrupted the druids attack the tieflings. So I think you have to do it after you clear the way for the refugees. Then have your way with the fools back in the grove.Im doing a relatively evil playthrough right now and didnt do anything in the grove other than save, test the shadow druids thing on kagha and get in a fight, reload and leave. I am going to the underdark before I go there to get the anti-magic flowers and and want to throw them around and murder those staff wielding hippies. Stuff like that. Do the "right" thing now, and then go back and murder them all haha.

Then what about siding with the cambion?

As for Halsin if he is as he seems to be then he is good, and helping him means you may have just helped a powerful enemy down the line, once your evil ways are known. Aiding Kagha seems the better choice, because she wants the grove locked. Yet if you follow grove free Halsin, he takes over again in the grove, again he appears to be good by him letting in the refugees, so your arming a potential enemy not only by giving him his grove back, but keeping it whole/intact. He's also made friends with the refugees by letting them in, they are another potential enemy or at least spies for Halsin.

If you help the goblins, destroy the grove, kill refugees you've elminated Halsins power base, and followers, and kept his potential allies from becoming stronger, or making more allies. Lowered the chance that he'll be able to come after you if you turn evil, and since you helped the goblins, they can serve as distractions for any bloody Heros that may want to target you, because your evil. Instead they have to focus on the goblin, with Priestess Guts. The Emerald Enclave then has to turn their attention towards the goblins to retaliate and reclaim Halsin's grove, Balders Gate has a large group of better armed, and prepared goblins then the usual masses on their doorstep. Again bigger threat for the moment then you. So 'stupid evil' or is it your playing for the long run, covering your tracks, by keeping everyone focused on other for the moment bigger threats while you go do what you gotta do. Taking out potential threats before they realize your a threat, and making all the other goody goods think it was someone/something else?

Do you mean Raphael when you say cambion? Because he only appeared once for me and never got a chance to make the deal. And as with the rest (including cambion), yes i can do those things, but the question is WHY. Even an evil character (smart evil character) would not make a deal with raphael. Why would he/she? You're trading your soul essentially and that is all the Cambions, devils etc deal in. A evil character is selfish, they won't make a deal that jeopardizes them. In the same vain, yes i helped the Goblins, but storywise it makes no sense for my character to do that. We are never enticed into doing it except because my character is just...bloodthirsty? For the sake of twirling mustache evil? The main focus of the storyline is pushing for a healer, the best one being Halsin so why would an evil character who cares about themselves first and foremost not want to do w/e it takes to help Halsin to get the help they need. The character needs more to go on to be evil and side with goblins.

I did that quest by siding with the goblins and i killed everyone, in the end nothing about a healer happened, i lost a companion bc he didnt want to be with me (which is fine), but i also didn't gain anything. No new power, no amazing loot given to me by the drow, she didnt join as a companion, i got nothing. Like I said, im curious to see how that story goes, it did a decent job of making me want to see what's next but not my character. Our character is not told why we should care about The Absolute or what it can do for us. Even the "evil" companions want healers to get rid of the tadpole except Astarion. Your points about "goblins serve as distractions" means nothing. It's just you making up story of what they can do. It doesn't solve the issue of why the character should follow them in terms of story. There is no "keeping everyone focused on other threats", there is no system like this in the game. It's very basic 1 for 1 right now.

Do we know for a fact that there won't be repercussions down the road, or a greater reward for helping the goblins. As for what we know or don't know. We don't know if Halsin is alive, when we choose things in the grove, what we do know is Nettie if you do that tries to kill you. That Kagda is seeking to seal the grove. The story I wove was looking at the world through my characters eyes as this is a Role Playing Game, and not what I would do based on rl facts, and what I know to be limitations of computer games. Which in pnp is considered meta and a nono, and I out of habit try not to look through the my own eye, and rather through the eyes of my character. One cause it's been instilled through pnp, and two to immerse myself in the game world.

But since we are basing everything on what we know to be limitations of video games, and facts we know to be true in the real world. I'll end up beating the game, so it really doesn't matter if I'm good or evil, if I trade my soul, or not. Because it's simply a game, and why should I care what I do.

I know for certain Halsin is dead cuz i killed him lol.

But I don't see why you're discussing this if your response is "its simply a game and why should i care what I do". Nothing else to add with you then.

100% agreed http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=694988#Post694988

That actually wasn't my response to begin with. It was your response about game design, and that won't happen in the game. Which is you the person behind the computers response. When if you look through your characters eyes then what I posted and you discounted could very well happen. I gathered you wanted a response to you the person behind the comp on why you should play the evil side. rather then why your character would want to be evil, and do the evil things.

The responses are totally different you the player already know the outcome, you win, so therefore what you do really doesn't matter.

You the character unless 'stupid evil' would be looking towards the future, as well as the present. After all by time you hit the grove you've found 3 alternatives. Priestess Guts who maybe able to help you, if not rid you of this tadpole can teach you to control it, thus increasing your personal power. Rapheal or whatever the cambions name is who can aid you and possibly grant you additional boons for additional cost of your soul. your not really using it, and power is power the more you have the less likely someone can kill you. Then theres the creche which according to La'eazal will be a sure fire thing. At the grove itself Halsin may or may not be dead, but your character would be able to suss out that he is good, therefore is a threat or potential threat, and if you aid him he'll have the backing of his grove as well.

Again this is all dependant on how your viewing everything. as a gamer, or as your character.

some rewards are not monetary, but instead based upon personal satisfaction, or future plans.

I am looking as my character. Larian said they wanted to data on being evil, to make a satisfying run, to see how the story goes. And from my characters point of view it is missing a few key things to make the evil side in this particular scenario worth it. Think of it as RP'ing as that character or just going for an immersive story. I don't want to view it as a gamer/player, at that point I should be metagaming shit if i can. I want to make choices based on what my character knows.

and my woven story is very possible what could go through your characters head. he has a chance to remove a threat grove/halsin and keep other threats Emerald Enclave, Harpers, Balder Gate guards, random Heros, busy. Sure it's not money, Halsin was never a sure bet in the first place, and there are other options.

Which begs further questions is he willing to leave a known force of good who has sided with the Harpers in the past alive, when he can get aid in destroying it now. Then try for what seems the surer option with the Gith creche as La'ezel is adament that they can cure the tadpole. Or does he try the cambion and hope to find a way to screw it out of his soul. Thus costing him nothing in the long run, if he's a wizard is he can try to find out how to become a lich. Thus the cambion will have to wait longer, and he may very well be able to kill the cambion later on. or is he set on swift gains, and short term?

But that is just your head-canon. We are talking about what the game is presenting us/our characters.

Everything I've used is in game. the druid grove siding with harpers in the past. The Emerald Enclave, The random heros, Balders Gates having guards, the goblins, Raphael, the creche. All of it is mentioned or found when you enter the grove.

much of it is because my evil character is a drow lloth sworn. so she is looking for information on this grove to please Lloth, while looking for a cure for tadpole.

I think a smart evil character can make a deal with Raphael. A smart NE character will pay with someone else's soul. A smart LE character will make a deal with Raphael that can never actually be collected on because rules lawyering. Ever read the "Children of the Nameless" MTG novella? Think "You can have my soul if I don't die before I turn 65." While the character plainly knows that they have previously died and thus the devil can never fulfill their end.

You wrote a lot and made some good points

A lot of it is meta information though.
Example 1: How would my character know what Helsin was planning ahead of time? And honestly, if an evil character did have full knowledge of the situation, then it would be best to leave both parties at their throats in a stalemate that leaves my character room to operate and play them against each other.
Example 2: how would a character not from this area know about the current political situation topside in Faerun, let alone the localized situation in BG. If you are a Gith, you aren't even hanging out in this plane of existence very often.
Example 3: And I think this is the crux of both of these posts: How in the world would my character know about Priestess Guts and the opportunities that the goblin army presents?

That is a good idea, about paying with someone elses soul. Kind of like the Kharlach side quest, with the Tyr paladins type thing? But ofc that brings the point if that devil can be trusted, but that's a whole other thing so lets not jump there lol. It would be nice if paying with someone elses soul is an option later in the game if you do deal with Raphael.

I noticed that after the initial fight at the entrance of the Grove astarion suggests to immediately leave because most likely more goblins will come. Issue with this is if you do so you will not know about the auntie Ethel option, nor would you know about priestess gut. Do you even know halsin is a healer at that point? And finally if you do follow astarion advice why would you then go into a full camp of goblins considering you're trying to avoid goblins in the first place. And then what, the only options left are the gith and Raphael which you can't do in ea. You have a map full of places that you cannot explore cause goblins!

I think Larian should deepen the antipathy one feels towards the substitute druidess. I mean, before I met Halsin, the druids in the grove were really selfish (except 1) and disdainful of refugees. And since we can (depending on the path we take) meet the pretty drow before to meet the imprisoned druid, it would be pretty smart if she tries to manipulate us by saying that the grove ritual will eradicate the area, killing the refugees and locals. Moreover it would make this choice look like the "right one" because we choose either to save the people, or to heal ourselves with the druids of the grove. Especially until now the people who propose to treat us have all failed...

It would be a good idea to create a funny friendly goblin with whom we create a link, making us feel guilty for razing his village to the ground. The one we saved just makes me want to set fire to the first goblin camp I come across because it smells of betrayal from far, far away.

The scenario is sometime too dichotomous, manichean, it would be more immersive to constantly have this feeling of "gosh, did I do the right thing?" as a good or bad player. (ex : Investigating the devil with the paladins of Tyr falsifying evidence. And don't make the speech with the tiefling so obvious).

Sorry for my english, say it if you dont understand my though.