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#699045 15/10/20 09:59 AM
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Shove is currently very overpowered, I find I'm winning more fights by shoving enemies into pits/the water than by frying them with spells or prodding them with pointy bits of metal.

It should be an action rather than a bonus action.

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The more I play the more I feel most of the "bonus actions" that are actions in 5e is a mistake.
I love to be able to do it, and it's very fun, but it also takes away from some choices in the game.

The Fighter Battle Master get's the pushing attack, but can then also shove a second enemy off the cliff?
Everyone basically get's "Repelling Blast" on their attacks in melee, granted their strength is high enough.

It adds a lot of dynamics to the game, and I find it fun to play, it speeds up the game... but ultimately it takes away some of the choices you have to weigh. (Not to mention gutting Rogues Cunning Actions)

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It's nice to have it - it gets round the Strength is a rubbish stat issue that 5e has - but it should be instead of attacking, not in addition to!

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Yes. Jump and Shove as bonus actions might be fun things to do in combat. But how much fun is it to level up and gain an ability that does the same thing as a bonus action everyone already has?

As a funny side-note, Shove does not trigger hostility the same way that stealing does. You can, for example, keep pushing the druid's holy idol all the way to the goblin camp if you feel like it, and nobody objects. Well, the goblins might when they see you approaching.

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A lot of actions being bonus actions. Yet another thing that creates redundancy issues with the class system and murders party synergy.

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I'm not worried about jump. being able to disengage as a bonus action is not inherently overpowered - it only steps on the PnP rogue's toes. The extra bonus action the thief gets more than makes up for that. Shame about the Arcane Trickster...

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Originally Posted by FrostyFardragon
It's nice to have it - it gets round the Strength is a rubbish stat issue that 5e has - but it should be instead of attacking, not in addition to!



5e has an issue with Strength being a rubbish stat? Since when? Like so many basic physical things run off of strength in 5e, from jump distances to encumbrance to attacking to overrunning to grappling to resisting grapples and overruns. (albeit overruns are an optional rule). Like dump strength too low, good luck taking basic travelling gear with you.

But I do agree that shove should be an action.

Last edited by Quent; 15/10/20 11:09 AM.

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I never use shove personally cause the combat is already easy and shove makes it too easy. So if it's an action, might be more balanced, I agree.

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Agreed, make it an action for me to Sparta kick people off of cliffs.

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I don't know if it really makes sense to call shove op when Warlocks get infinite ranged shoves, Battle Masters get a limited but still generous amount of ranged shoves, and shove arrows are a thing. Even if sparing the action isn't hard by itself you still have to at least be in melee range to do the regular bonus action shove.

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Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't know if it really makes sense to call shove op when Warlocks get infinite ranged shoves, Battle Masters get a limited but still generous amount of ranged shoves, and shove arrows are a thing. Even if sparing the action isn't hard by itself you still have to at least be in melee range to do the regular bonus action shove.


The magic hand also shoves, i think even some familiars lol

Last edited by JDCrenton; 15/10/20 11:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't know if it really makes sense to call shove op when Warlocks get infinite ranged shoves, Battle Masters get a limited but still generous amount of ranged shoves, and shove arrows are a thing. Even if sparing the action isn't hard by itself you still have to at least be in melee range to do the regular bonus action shove.


EB is an action, Battlemaster shove is an action, Shove is a bonus action, see the difference here?

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Originally Posted by dunehunter
Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't know if it really makes sense to call shove op when Warlocks get infinite ranged shoves, Battle Masters get a limited but still generous amount of ranged shoves, and shove arrows are a thing. Even if sparing the action isn't hard by itself you still have to at least be in melee range to do the regular bonus action shove.


EB is an action, Battlemaster shove is an action, Shove is a bonus action, see the difference here?

I do but it hardly seems like a meaningful one. The Battle Mastee still gets their regular bonus damage so it's no different than what they were going to do anyway most likely, warlock should be spamming blasts so that's hardly an action sacrifice, and the same goes for arrows. Shove at least costs an offhand attack if you're a dual wielder.

Last edited by Sunfly; 15/10/20 11:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by Quent
Originally Posted by FrostyFardragon
It's nice to have it - it gets round the Strength is a rubbish stat issue that 5e has - but it should be instead of attacking, not in addition to!



5e has an issue with Strength being a rubbish stat? Since when? Like so many basic physical things run off of strength in 5e, from jump distances to encumbrance to attacking to overrunning to grappling to resisting grapples and overruns. (albeit overruns are an optional rule). Like dump strength too low, good luck taking basic travelling gear with you.

But I do agree that shove should be an action.

Yes, it's generally accepted on 5e forums that DEX is by far better under most circumstances. Most tables simply do not use encumbrance, and jump distance rarely crops up.

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Nooo I love to shove people I have won most things like that. maybe hard mode, but I have a 9-5 job and need to do some shoving away to get to the smooching

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Both Repelling Blast and Battle Master's Pushing Attack are chosen abilities though, you pick them at the cost of other abilities.
Battle Master even has to use a resource to push.

Yes Repelling Blast is "free" but warlocks pay for this by having a very small pool of spells, and less spell slots. Eldrich Blast is meant to become very powerful.

I enjoy shove as a bonus action, but I see that it's a bit of an overpowered ability as it stands.

If it was bade an attack action, and you could use it as one of your attacks with multi attack (as you can in 5e) then I think it would still do it's job.

Last edited by Aurgelmir; 15/10/20 12:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Aurgelmir
Both Repelling Blast and Battle Master's Pushing Attack are chosen abilities though, you pick them at the cost of other abilities.
Battle Master even has to use a resource to push.

Yes Repelling Blast is "free" but warlocks pay for this by having a very small pool of spells, and less spell slots. Eldrich Blast is meant to become very powerful.

I enjoy shove as a bonus action, but I see that it's a bit of an overpowered ability as it stands.

If it was bade an attack action, and you could use it as one of your attacks with multi attack (as you can in 5e) then I think it would still do it's job.


Battle Master might have to make a choice and spend a resource but considering how many battles have powerful shoving spots it's not exactly a hard choice and they were already going to spend that resource on some form of damage steroid anyway. As for Warlock, sure it comes at the price of being a Warlock but it's not like your blasts are bad. Eldritch Blast+Hex is far from bad damage and, like with Battle Master, ranged shoving in and of itself is incredibly strong to the point that you hardly need any other spells besides Hex and Misty Step to be effective.

Last edited by Sunfly; 15/10/20 12:39 PM.
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Going to make a strong Thief called Shovey McShoveface who does nothing but shove enemies off ledges.

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In 5e, Shove is exactly an Action...it replaces an attack. Which means it can be done as either part of an action or bonus action. A 5th+ Martial could do two of them in a single Attack Action. Having it as a bonus action here does not bother me at all and it is one of the most fun things in the game to be able to shove someone off a cliff.

I tend to warn against being too precise in details when adapting a thing from one medium to another. Something that's fine on the tabletop doesn't work as well in a computer game. There are some things that need to be simplified/streamlined and some that will be made more complex (especially the sort of optional rules that would slow down game play on a tabletop but which the computer can do in the background easier.)

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So, one big thing I learned about having shove as a bonus action which is game-breaking is how invisibility works. Because shove is a bonus action instead of an attack action it does not break invisibility. This means while invisible and hiding you can continuously shove enemies with a 100% chance of success and it never breaks your invisibility or stealth.

It's very easy to abuse and makes many fights trivial, so I would recommend that shove be an action specifically for the purpose of causing invisibility to end.

Last edited by Zaxtaj; 15/10/20 01:37 PM.
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