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So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


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Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


Responded in the other thread, and actually a few posts earlier in this one to this question.

I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.

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+1

first post folks - be gentle

to throw in a related thought, and i may have missed this discussion on the forums already, but after playing around in the character creator is anyone else scratching their head wondering why Drow arent listed as another Elf subrace? I get the love that the dark elves get in the setting, but it just seems odd? Will the gray dwarves/deep gnomes also be differentiated from general dwarves/gnomes? That could be neat from an 'underdark' based race perspective, but idk it that is what larian is aiming for and it just seems like an odd game design/dev choice. Idk, along similar lines i suppose that tiefling could be grouped as planetouched along with aasimar and genasi (if we get all these options), and gith would breakdown into the githyanki, githzeri, (and maybe gith raiders?) so just thought it was odd to have drow separate from elf, but overall just a small observation from a big fan of the og bg games and dnd in general - really hoping for larian to use ea as an opportunity to make this game even better than it is currently as ive been really enjoying ea so far, but still think the game has a lot of growth potential within their current systems that we can give meaningful feedback on. thx!

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yeah drow should just be a subrace of elf, its exactly what they are. Im assuming there are technical reasons though

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Originally Posted by blindhamster
I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.


No, please. This one has zero drama, lol. The other one is 8 pages, but probably 4 of which are people throwing accusations at each other. I'd very much prefer if we keep a civil conversation around here, at least being the OP I can -tryyyy- to stir people away from going off-topic and fighting.

Originally Posted by nation
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first post folks - be gentle


No problem, dear! Welcome to the forums smile

As for your question, I wouldn't know. Perhaps it has something to do with the scripting of the game, perhaps it has to do with the fact despite being elves, they are very, very different, far beyond a matter of subrace. I do remember in NWN2 there was a 'Planetouched' section with tieflings, genasi, and Aasimars if I recall correctly, but we do not know yet if those races will be included at all in this game. We shall wait and see.

Last edited by Goldberry; 15/10/20 02:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by blindhamster
I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.


No, please. This one has zero drama, lol. The other one is 8 pages, but probably 4 of which people throwing accusations at each other.

Originally Posted by nation
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first post folks - be gentle


No problem, dear! Welcome to the forums smile

As for your question, I wouldn't know. Perhaps it has something to do with the scripting of the game, perhaps it has to do with the fact despite being elves, they are very, very different, far beyond a matter of subrace. I do remember in NWN2 there was a 'Planetouched' section with tieflings, genasi, and Aasimars if I recall correctly, but we do not know yet if those races will be included at all in this game. We shall wait and see.


D&D 5e phb has the example elf shown as Drizzt. A number of elves in the books refer to some specific drow characters as "elf", they're still elves and from a lore perspective, the only real thing that separates them is the curse put on them for their choice to follow Araushnee after her final betrayal of Corellon due to their slow manipulation by Wendonai. The Lady penitent trilogy had a bunch of drow have their curse be lifted due to them not having the mark of wendonai and their abandonment of the drow ways, similarly, at the end of the most recent drizzt book "relentless" there is another event that shows how similar they still are really. Wont say more than that due to spoilers.

I think it's just a technical thing for drow to be separate from elves - due to them wanting to have drow and basically "good drow" in BG3 for whatever reason, although IMO the seldarine drow shouldn't be called seldarine drow, they should be dark elves and not have drow colouring at all.

p.s. fair point against the merge, it's just I put a reasonably detailed rundown of the subraces for elves in the other one laugh

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Originally Posted by blindhamster
D&D 5e phb has the example elf shown as Drizzt. A number of elves in the books refer to some specific drow characters as "elf", they're still elves and from a lore perspective, the only real thing that separates them is the curse put on them for their choice to follow Araushnee after her final betrayal of Corellon due to their slow manipulation by Wendonai. The Lady penitent trilogy had a bunch of drow have their curse be lifted due to them not having the mark of wendonai and their abandonment of the drow ways, similarly, at the end of the most recent drizzt book "relentless" there is another event that shows how similar they still are really. Wont say more than that due to spoilers.


Oh, I know they're still elves. When I describe them as 'different' I'm merely talking about their culture, their habitat, society, etc, besides the fact that they're intimate enemies. That's what I meant. The differences between drow and elves (any subrace) are more drastic than all of the elven subraces. If that makes sense? But I have no idea why the devs decided to put them in different race categories, I'm just wild guessing. I agree with you it's likely due to a technical reason.

Originally Posted by blindhamster

p.s. fair point against the merge, it's just I put a reasonably detailed rundown of the subraces for elves in the other one laugh


Feel free to post it in here as well! In fact, we can talk in private if you want so that I can add it to the first post of this thread. We can compile all official information that we have to make a stronger case smile

P.S: I also intend for this topic to be a general feedback on elves. I haven't added a lot more yet because I'm very slow with my playthrough.

Last edited by Goldberry; 15/10/20 02:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by blindhamster
In Forgotten realms there are quite a few
High Elves
- Sun Elves: Regal looking, typically bronzed skin, they have hair colours of brown/red/copper/gold typically and their eyes are usually black, gold or silver
- Moon Elves: Pale skin, often with a blue or purple hue, hair colours covering all human ones plus silver and blue, their eyes are usually blue or green with gold flecks
- Star Elves: pale skin with gold, silver or red hair and tend to be particularly slender, their eyes are similar to moon elves

Wood Elves
- Copper Elves: tend to be broader and sturdier, tan or bronzed skin, copper, brown, black or golden blond hair with eyes of green, hazel or brown. Wood elves are technically one of the only races of elves native to Faerun, the reason for this is they come from intermingling of Wild Elves with other elves over many generations.
- Wild/Green Elves: tend toward darker skin tones from tanned to dark brown, usually have darker hair colour and eyes similar to copper elves.

Eladrin: Eladrin are Elves native to the feywild still, their appearance literally changes with the seasons, they look a lot like Sun Elves in terms of their regal appearance, but their hair, skin and eye colours change with the passing of each season, as does their personality.

Drow
- Lolthian Drow: Shorter than surface elves, they're graceful and regal looking, their skin is almost always shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones differentiate them though, their eyes are almost always red, with violet and amber being rare exceptions, their hair is always white or off white. Their colouring is part of a curse put upon them by Corellon for their actions around the early crown wars.
- Dark Elves (Seldarine drow in this game): These drow have had Corellons curse lifted due to actions shortly before the spellplague. They have reverted to their original colourations (NOT how they're shown in the game) and look a lot like Wild/Green Elves for colouration.

Lythari: Esentially a unique non-evil breed of Elven werewolf that doesn't have a hybrid form, they're usually depicted as pale with grey or white hair both in elf and wolf form. But they're usually found in Wood Elf lands, so in theory make more sense to match their colouring to some extent.

Avariel: Winged Elves, their features are even more delicate than other elves, with eyes that are larger than most too, their eyes tend to be bright blues, greens or even purple, their skin colour isn't really described anywhere but the only art of them shown has been pale/tanned. Their hair and wings tend to be black/white/silver. Though the most well known Avariel, Aerie from BG2 has blond hair. Avariel are noted as being shorter than High or Wood elves in the same way that drow are.

Aquatic Elves: their build is probably the most sturdy of all the elves and tend to be tall. Their skin tends toward blues and greens, but sometimes browns or even silvers, their hair is usually blacks, greens, blues, browns or even red. Their eyes are usually black, blue, white, green or very rarely silver.


Regardless of the kind, they all have the angular features, almond eyes and pointed ears. None of them can grow facial hair or have body hair.

If Larian really want to include human ethnicities in the different elves, they should at least try and correlate the human ethnicities to those subraces and go from there. Right now the Elves are just /wrong/ and it's crazy because there are EXCELLENT resources available for multiple editions of D&D describing all the above.

Most notably for D&D 5e, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide which should honestly be a default inclusion for this game anyway, considering the setting.


The source for the above is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for 5e + Races of Faerun for 3/3.5 plus in the case of "Dark Elves" just my observations from lady penitent. smile

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Originally Posted by blindhamster
The source for the above is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for 5e + Races of Faerun for 3/3.5 plus in the case of "Dark Elves" just my observations from lady penitent smile


Mmh! I do find it curious the large masses of people claiming that elves are 'white and blonde' and 'too caucasic'. Then you read the descriptions and you find out that the vast majority of them aren not actually white and blonde. There are so many possible combinations, from blues and green hues to very dark skin. Wood elves per instance are said to be the most populous of elves, and they're tan, and dark haired mostly.

On your thoughts about giving subraces ethnic hints, a random thought that occured to me was this elven depiction of 5e Player's Handbook:

[Linked Image]

She has the classic angular features, but also... Do I have a big imagination, or she kind of looks like Rihanna? :'D This is an excellent example of an ethnic looking elf, in my opinion.

[Linked Image]









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I think using inspiration from African ethnic groups would work well for Wild Elves, Copper Elves would probably be more like mixed background people because Copper Elves are exactly that, a mix of Wild Elves and the other Elven types. Greek ethnic inspiration seems like a good fit for Sun Elves IMO. Moon Elves and Star Elves physically are probably the ones to give the more anglo caucasian appearance. If the were to branch out further, I'm not sure about "asian" (which is a very generic term sadly) inspiration for any of them, Eladrin might be an interesting one to consider tying a bit of Japanese influence to, considering their art in Volo's Guide. Drow would potentially fit following the same pattern as Wild Elves, considering their background as the Dark Elves were originally from the same regions as the Green/Wild Elves.

However, with all the above, I think you'd still want to:
  • adjust eyes to be more almond shaped
  • add sharper, more angled, more defined jawline and cheekbones
  • make the nose a little narrower
  • reduce chin width to accent the more angled jawline
  • increase the angle of brows slightly
  • make the face a bit more slender


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Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by blindhamster
The source for the above is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for 5e + Races of Faerun for 3/3.5 plus in the case of "Dark Elves" just my observations from lady penitent smile


Mmh! I do find it curious the large masses of people claiming that elves are 'white and blonde' and 'too caucasic'. Then you read the descriptions and you find out that the vast majority of them aren not actually white and blonde. There are so many possible combinations, from blues and green hues to very dark skin. Wood elves per instance are said to be the most populous of elves, and they're tan, and dark haired mostly.

On your thoughts about giving subraces ethnic hints, a random thought that occured to me was this elven depiction of 5e Player's Handbook:

[Linked Image]

She has the classic angular features, but also... Do I have a big imagination, or she kind of looks like Rihanna? :'D This is an excellent example of an ethnic looking elf, in my opinion.

[Linked Image]






Not just you. Totally looks like a Rihanna-Elf!




Originally Posted by blindhamster
I think using inspiration from African ethnic groups would work well for Wild Elves, Copper Elves would probably be more like mixed background people because Copper Elves are exactly that, a mix of Wild Elves and the other Elven types. Greek ethnic inspiration seems like a good fit for Sun Elves IMO. Moon Elves and Star Elves physically are probably the ones to give the more anglo caucasian appearance. If the were to branch out further, I'm not sure about "asian" (which is a very generic term sadly) inspiration for any of them, Eladrin might be an interesting one to consider tying a bit of Japanese influence to, considering their art in Volo's Guide. Drow would potentially fit following the same pattern as Wild Elves, considering their background as the Dark Elves were originally from the same regions as the Green/Wild Elves.

However, with all the above, I think you'd still want to:
  • adjust eyes to be more almond shaped
  • add sharper, more angled, more defined jawline and cheekbones
  • make the nose a little narrower
  • reduce chin width to accent the more angled jawline
  • increase the angle of brows slightly
  • make the face a bit more slender



I like your ideas and would be happy to see something like this in-game in the future smile

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Originally Posted by Usako

Originally Posted by blindhamster
I think using inspiration from African ethnic groups would work well for Wild Elves, Copper Elves would probably be more like mixed background people because Copper Elves are exactly that, a mix of Wild Elves and the other Elven types. Greek ethnic inspiration seems like a good fit for Sun Elves IMO. Moon Elves and Star Elves physically are probably the ones to give the more anglo caucasian appearance. If the were to branch out further, I'm not sure about "asian" (which is a very generic term sadly) inspiration for any of them, Eladrin might be an interesting one to consider tying a bit of Japanese influence to, considering their art in Volo's Guide. Drow would potentially fit following the same pattern as Wild Elves, considering their background as the Dark Elves were originally from the same regions as the Green/Wild Elves.

However, with all the above, I think you'd still want to:
  • adjust eyes to be more almond shaped
  • add sharper, more angled, more defined jawline and cheekbones
  • make the nose a little narrower
  • reduce chin width to accent the more angled jawline
  • increase the angle of brows slightly
  • make the face a bit more slender



I like your ideas and would be happy to see something like this in-game in the future smile


So, what would the above mean for current character creation options for currently available races?

well...
High elves would have more european features, with them ranging from more anglo looking to greek/italian. The colourations would be:
Skin: Pale, tanned/bronze tones, pale skin tones with a blue hue, pale skin tones with a purple hue.
Hair: Blondes, Browns, Blacks, Reds, Blues, Whites, Golds, Silvers, Coppers
Eyes: Blacks, Golds, Silvers, Blue/Green with Gold Flecks, human colours.

Wood elves would be more african and mixed heritage features. Their actual bodies in theory, if a slider system was added, should probably have slightly more room for broader, sturdier appearance than high elves.
Skin: tanned/bronzed through to very dark browns
Hair: Copper, Brown, Blond, Black, Gold, Reds
Eyes: Greens, Hazels, Browns, possibly silver, possibly black

Lolthian Drow would be again more african for their features like Wild Elves, they should be shorter than high and wood elves.
Skin: shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones, possibly include some lighter versions of those too as a nod to a lot of art.
Hair: various whites and off whites
Eyes: Reds, Purples, Ambers

Seldarine Drow should be pretty similar to Wood Elves for options, but be shorter like drow and lack the mixed heritage faces.

Reminding again that those real world ethnicities would be a starting point for elven faces, but they'd all be adjusted based on the bullet point list above.


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Originally Posted by blindhamster
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


Responded in the other thread, and actually a few posts earlier in this one to this question.

I feel like Mods should merge the two elf threads. Kinda weird having two threads for essentially the same topic.


+1

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Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack

By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?


Elves should be as tall as humans or even taller like in Norse mythology and Tolkiens work DnD felt Elves were to perfect so they made them manlets but everyone rightfully ignores it.

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My understanding is in the older tales and histories elves were always taller, thinner and "more ethereal" than stumpy humans.

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Originally Posted by Newtinmpls
My understanding is in the older tales and histories elves were always taller, thinner and "more ethereal" than stumpy humans.

Nope, they were tiny in most stories, think "wee folk", or they were monstrous and misshapen like goblins, animals mixed with humans.


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Originally Posted by EndymionSelene

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack

By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?


Elves should be as tall as humans or even taller like in Norse mythology and Tolkiens work DnD felt Elves were to perfect so they made them manlets but everyone rightfully ignores it.


Forgotten Realms is not Tolkien.

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Originally Posted by WarBaby2

Also, true, but these are Realms (D&D) elves we are talking about, and they have been very thoroughly described and illustrated for abour 30 years now, and one of the biggest reasons why they don't just look "like beautiful humans" is, that they are literally alien to Abeir Toril... like dwarves, they have no genetic ancestry with the planet's native humans, hence why they only vaguely resemble them, at most.

Contrary to, for instance, LotR, where the ancient Elves basically originated all intelligent live... even Orks and Goblins.


If you've been paying attention to illustrations in DnD you'll know that no two editions have the same kind of art style, and even within a single edition you'll find a wide variety of depictions, and no two are identical.

Look at the depiction of Drizzt on pg 21 of the 5e PHB, compare to the elf in pg 25, the one on pg 44, the bard on pg 51 (this one is a half elf I think), then you have a moon elf and a wood elf druid on pg 64 and 67 respectively. The ranger on pg 89 and the rogue on pg 91. Then we have another two spellcasting elves on pg 138 and 169. They all look, with like one exception (pg 138), like humans with funny ears and strange colours... But they're all slightly different in style too. The elven faces in BG3 are, afaic, elven enough for me.

FWIW Humans are just as much planar interlopers as the other races. It is vaguely implied that the original humans came from Earth (see the variety of human mythology represented - everyone from Tyr, Tymora/Beshaba (who together were originally the Greek goddess Tyche), practically the whole Egyptian pantheon (Sharess = Bast, for example), and gods from the Babylonian pantheon etc). Humans can also breed with elves to produce fertile offspring (half elves), which implies they are much closer on a genetic level than you'd think.

Z.

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Originally Posted by Postwave
Originally Posted by EndymionSelene

Originally Posted by ZawiszaTheBlack

By the way, did you notice that all Elves in the game are as tall as human?


Elves should be as tall as humans or even taller like in Norse mythology and Tolkiens work DnD felt Elves were to perfect so they made them manlets but everyone rightfully ignores it.


Forgotten Realms is not Tolkien.



No, but forgotten realms elves have been as tall as humans since at least 3rd edition, even when the phb ones were not.

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Originally Posted by Zandilar

If you've been paying attention to illustrations in DnD you'll know that no two editions have the same kind of art style, and even within a single edition you'll find a wide variety of depictions, and no two are identical.


Fair enough. Depictions vary from artist to artist, this much is true. However, some traits have been consistent, and I have attached 5e art to the very first post of this thread, in case you did not see.

It all boils down to the same though, specially considering just how much the art varies... That, ideally, it would be amazing if there were options for everyone's taste.

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