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Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
It could be that they did not have enough time to include all the content for the absolute side. Some things are broken.
The absolute wants the crash survivors dead. The player was not supposed to be a true soul.

The mindflayer revealed:
"curved drow blades, crude goblin torches, gnoll teeth dripping blood
You see other mindflayers arranged in a seren circle. Absolute unity. Absolute power"
I am not sure whether or not the vision for the githyanki chase was a memory of the distant past or something that could happen. The Gith once fought the mindflayers and they had lots of nautiloids back then. But if the Gith hunted the nautiloid because they know that something like it is about to happen again then the mindflayers posess a fleet of ships once more.


Asking about the chase it did kind of feel like a "Those fkers always chase us amirite" moment than anything specific.

You ask about the thing Shadowheart has (the weapon), and it smells of brimstone and flesh. Lending weight to my theory that its an infernal puzzle box with some crazy contract in it.

When you ask if more of the illithid around it just has images of nautiloids coming from the deep space between crystal spheres a la reaper invasion. The people on the ground were supposed to have been converted like the woman was in the ship (if you pushed the button). When you ask why you were abducted it imagined empty pods, needing more bodies in them. I think theyre going for as many as possible, but I get the sense they are to be conditioned and turned and not necessarily just put back into the population. If youre marked its because you escaped. Id imagine going back to the fold would be more than ok with them.

-----

Eddiar - perfect word. PERFECT. Evil is psychotic in this as it stands. Through and through.


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Yeah its the first word that came to me.

Its like Larian thought the people that like playing evil do it for the pleasure of it.
The only type of person this might appeal to is someone that likes hurting others just for the sake of it rather than some other ultarior motive.

And most of the time going evil involves MORE work... so why would I do something more difficult for little to no reward? Not to mention storywise things would be limiting. If I kill the Tieflings I won't see them when I reach Baldur's gate! I can't take advantage of all the advantages they could offer me.

So why should I be evil again?
Maybe I should be allowed to enslave the Tieflings and get the advantages through slavery instead of friendship.

Mol is setting up a thieve's guild right? So what if I become the big boss and if Mol doesn't behave then I threaten to kill his friends.

This is the perfect balance of being evil I think.
Even Anakin killing younglings did it because he thought it was for the greater good.

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First post on the forum, but I had to make it. Larian said they wanted feedback on the evil path? So here I am, I actually like playing evil in RPG/CRPG's and overall I have to say Larian's evil route is pretty lacking. For my feedback, there will be spoilers.

Right, first issue. There is no incentive to side with the goblins. Unless you like kicking puppies for the sake of it or you just want to have sex with Minthara. That's what I see, the information you have on hand, without metagaming is that the tadpoles are dangerous, you're going to turn in to mindflayers, the game leads you to experts who all tell you that you want that thing out of your head as soon as possible. All of your party members save the vampire are in on that route, this is where the incentive comes in. If you're the good little evil player you would've most likely have used the power of the tadpole, got a dream and found new power. This is where Larian makes the mistake, the entity tempting you in your dream I think is not the tadpole. It's actually a proxy for the absolute. The narration goes into detail that the tadpole hates this person and upon the third dream if you lash out at them, they call you a monster instead of helping you.

If this entity is a proxy of the absolute by the second or third dream they should lead you towards Minthara, or just make an npc who wants to gather "true souls" if I'm outright wrong.

From there Minithara can tell you all about the glory of the cult and the fact you can control the tadpole thanks to the absolute. Que drama, this is the perfect time to do it. Now you have an explanation. Some of the party members can shift and go "wait" we can control it why do we need to get rid of power? Some of the members begin siding with the vampire. While others can still focus on the druid, since they do not trust the drow. What leads me to believe that the absolute's power is keeping the tadpole from changing you is this line, when the Illithiad option changes to true soul.



Now, you have further incentive, more power, more prestige and a lead to the cause of the abnormality if you don't care for the cult at all. Minthara could even begin handing you out quests, the goblin area could become the "evil" hub for the start of act 1. Through quests, slowly she begins to trust you and then she lets you into the plan of attacking the grove to prove yourself and earn an audience with the absolute. The issue is not the goblin raid itself, but you need a proper lead up to it instead of just turning around and deciding to murder people just because. It doesn't help either when you out yourself to two followers they want you dead on sight.

Last bit, after helping Minthara unless you do a proper dialogue check Minthara wants you dead, because orders from on high. Now we are delving into theory territory, at that point I think your PC is seen as a rival for the title of absolute. I don't know because it's so out there that the boss wants you dead after you did everything to help and now the goblin camp is also hostile. Rendering what you just did a moot point, great job killing those people for nothing.

The evil route needs more build up, more rewards. For example doing the route right could make Minthara a companion or you can keep the goblin camp as a hub or perhaps even both. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say.


Last edited by Mozhad; 17/10/20 01:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by Eddiar
Yeah its the first word that came to me.

Its like Larian thought the people that like playing evil do it for the pleasure of it.
The only type of person this might appeal to is someone that likes hurting others just for the sake of it rather than some other ultarior motive.

And most of the time going evil involves MORE work... so why would I do something more difficult for little to no reward? Not to mention storywise things would be limiting. If I kill the Tieflings I won't see them when I reach Baldur's gate! I can't take advantage of all the advantages they could offer me.

So why should I be evil again?
Maybe I should be allowed to enslave the Tieflings and get the advantages through slavery instead of friendship.

Mol is setting up a thieve's guild right? So what if I become the big boss and if Mol doesn't behave then I threaten to kill his friends.

This is the perfect balance of being evil I think.
Even Anakin killing younglings did it because he thought it was for the greater good.


And even then, Anakin was a mindless tool at that point being puppeted by the real evil - palpatine. Who was smart as sheeeeit and was grand master chess moving things all across the systems. Anakin technically never really WENT evil. He was a thrall. Later, he mastered enough of the force to have sanity (surprising considering what happened to his body and mind) and never rebelled because he knew the emperor could destroy him and any plans he had would get his mind read. He was trapped.

I said it earlier - a smart, beholden to none, individual making the decisions that would most selfishly benefit them would help the refugees, the kids, and break the druids from the shadow grasp. You have allies. Lots of them. In lots of places now. Networks matter and theres a lot of knowledge and power in those pools and they'll never know that youre banging minthara on a blood soaked altar after you shake hands with them and say have a good one, Ill see you around. I have gained nothing from being evil - less than nothing mainly because you get good stuff from quest turn-ins. I keep trying to remember how i got some sweet items that I did in the other play through and im like...shoot was that from a quest?


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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@mozhad I love the idea of making the goblin camp YOUR camp. You start the game camping in the woods. When youre with druids it is a little area next to it thats all druid-y. If you change allegiances it says "Taking this path will move your camp to the goblin fort and you will no longer be able to visit the grove as a friend. Continue?"



What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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The figure in the dreams pointing at the goblin camp would be interesting. If it is the absolute and it wants us to join then it should let us know how.
I hope that the people at Larian take a look at this thread. They hint so strongly at this path that it would be a waste to leave it as something so hard to find. "Look, you can join this new religion but we won't show you how or give you a good reason to do it"


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Originally Posted by Orbax
@mozhad I love the idea of making the goblin camp YOUR camp. You start the game camping in the woods. When youre with druids it is a little area next to it thats all druid-y. If you change allegiances it says "Taking this path will move your camp to the goblin fort and you will no longer be able to visit the grove as a friend. Continue?"



Or just have some of the goblin npc's tag along in your camp. Minthara could even replace Halsin or become a full companion by the end of the raid. Also one more thing, Larian told us they handed us the evil companions, yes some of them are evil but it seems like only one of them have any interest in exploring the power of the tadpole. It's why I think adding some drama with the information Minthara could provide would make things interesting and make some of them join Astarion's camp on controlling them. Chiefly as I said in my post, when it comes to evil stories in rpg games, well written ones you need a good incentive. There is none here at the moment. The good route in the EA is actually fairly developed in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Orbax
@mozhad I love the idea of making the goblin camp YOUR camp. You start the game camping in the woods. When youre with druids it is a little area next to it thats all druid-y. If you change allegiances it says "Taking this path will move your camp to the goblin fort and you will no longer be able to visit the grove as a friend. Continue?"




Right now the Evil side for this is like...a 2/10. If you could make the Goblin Camp your camp, it would be a 4/10. Because right now, the Goblins want to kill you EVEN if you side with them which is just....insane. Like...why? I don't get how this was a good or even a decent writing decision. Hell you could make it like the Ogres where you get a horn and you can call upon them a couple of times as a bonus to make you want to choose that path. Obv there would have to be some sort of cost to balance it out, but its...something?

And another thing what Mozhad said. These...evil companions aren't really....fully evil? All but Astarion approved of me wanting to kill the refugees lol. So even more punishing for the player. In the end Wyll left, which im fine with because consequences are good, but i don't even get a replacement. I half expected Minthara to join but she was like "we banged, peace out now and oh dont go back cuz goblins will kill you, lol". Nice, thanks game.

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by Orbax
@mozhad I love the idea of making the goblin camp YOUR camp. You start the game camping in the woods. When youre with druids it is a little area next to it thats all druid-y. If you change allegiances it says "Taking this path will move your camp to the goblin fort and you will no longer be able to visit the grove as a friend. Continue?"




Right now the Evil side for this is like...a 2/10. If you could make the Goblin Camp your camp, it would be a 4/10. Because right now, the Goblins want to kill you EVEN if you side with them which is just....insane. Like...why? I don't get how this was a good or even a decent writing decision. Hell you could make it like the Ogres where you get a horn and you can call upon them a couple of times as a bonus to make you want to choose that path. Obv there would have to be some sort of cost to balance it out, but its...something?

And another thing what Mozhad said. These...evil companions aren't really....fully evil? All but Astarion approved of me wanting to kill the refugees lol. So even more punishing for the player. In the end Wyll left, which im fine with because consequences are good, but i don't even get a replacement. I half expected Minthara to join but she was like "we banged, peace out now and oh dont go back cuz goblins will kill you, lol". Nice, thanks game.


Well you're right, I would also rate the evil path quite low as well. There is not build up to it, using the tadpole reveals that the moral fibre of your companions is actually not all that strong. Lae'zel gave in, it's why you don't get an approval hit for giving in yourself and an approval increase for resisting, she's actually very insecure and wants more prestige and power to impress her queen. Wyll also gives into the dream, because he's larping as a hero. Those two companions could easily shift, especially if Minthara could give wyll information on his personal quest. Despite his hero act, he's actually quite selfish. He approves if you push him to torture a man for information within the goblin camp. If you can make wyll more selfish it would be cool if he sticks around for the raid and party, showing his slide into evil.

The evil route just needs more content and build up. It's pretty bare bones right now right in comparison to the good route.

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@orbax, and armoredhedgehog

Nah the book didn't specify, again this is my horrid 'head canon' yet we don't know, probably not a way to find out until later on, maybe even in another act. yet it's just a bit of lore I've picked up, the link is that Jergal himself is a forgotten god for the most part. Then there is his cleric that comes to join your camp. Bits of conversations here and there, which of course adjusts my head canon.

Beholder seems a likely scenerio as well they have been known to do similair things. Though what if the Absolute is actually an elder brain gone mad? I mean the tadpoles are from Illithid. Then there is the conversation with Us on the ship where he says they are fleeing a great evil. Maybe something from another plane? The Far realm?

There are so many hints, and drops, and nothing really concrete, and I for one haven't explored all of them. Just now finally moving out of the druids grove, and surrounding areas to the blighted village, then goblin camp. 60+ hours and lots of characters that I'm slowly no lifeing it through. Then again it's the first act and in the grand scope of things we are pissons

I'll have to play through some more, to see further things I find. Atm currently dealing with Guts stupid combat, though may skip it just for the moment. Got what I need from her the mark, then explore the options with the other 2. With my evil characters, or with just one, then see what happens with my good character. Sadly I don't have that damn ogre horn yet.

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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Yeah its the first word that came to me.

Its like Larian thought the people that like playing evil do it for the pleasure of it.
The only type of person this might appeal to is someone that likes hurting others just for the sake of it rather than some other ultarior motive.

And most of the time going evil involves MORE work... so why would I do something more difficult for little to no reward? Not to mention storywise things would be limiting. If I kill the Tieflings I won't see them when I reach Baldur's gate! I can't take advantage of all the advantages they could offer me.

So why should I be evil again?
Maybe I should be allowed to enslave the Tieflings and get the advantages through slavery instead of friendship.

Mol is setting up a thieve's guild right? So what if I become the big boss and if Mol doesn't behave then I threaten to kill his friends.

This is the perfect balance of being evil I think.
Even Anakin killing younglings did it because he thought it was for the greater good.


And even then, Anakin was a mindless tool at that point being puppeted by the real evil - palpatine. Who was smart as sheeeeit and was grand master chess moving things all across the systems. Anakin technically never really WENT evil. He was a thrall. Later, he mastered enough of the force to have sanity (surprising considering what happened to his body and mind) and never rebelled because he knew the emperor could destroy him and any plans he had would get his mind read. He was trapped.

I said it earlier - a smart, beholden to none, individual making the decisions that would most selfishly benefit them would help the refugees, the kids, and break the druids from the shadow grasp. You have allies. Lots of them. In lots of places now. Networks matter and theres a lot of knowledge and power in those pools and they'll never know that youre banging minthara on a blood soaked altar after you shake hands with them and say have a good one, Ill see you around. I have gained nothing from being evil - less than nothing mainly because you get good stuff from quest turn-ins. I keep trying to remember how i got some sweet items that I did in the other play through and im like...shoot was that from a quest?

A quick ask, did Palpatine keep the good people around, aka the jedi? Which if you keep the grove alive is just the same as him keeping the jedi around? And Anakin was looking for the quick route the reward route which Palpatine offered him.

Also he used greedy factions to further his plans, played one side against the other, killed anyone that got in his way either himself, or others. None of what Palpatine did was the quick route, the easy route. The one that gave him the most rewards. Then there is the fact that Palpatine was not any where near lvl 1 when things went down. At level one he was serving a master that offered little in the way of rewards, other then him getting stronger. It wasn't until he was strong enough that he struck his master down, and started getting rewarded. Which again wasn't at level 4.

You siiiiir need to stop quoting Palpatine!! and remember your only level 1 - 4! Not 10 - 15! Anyway back to my gaming, have fun.

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I think "us" just refers to the imps and the hordes of the bloodwar under the nautiloid. They later get boarded by followers of Zariel.
In my absolute speculation thread
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=700069&page=2
sharp commented that it could be an elder brain, namely

Loulaum


I agree that the goblins turning hostile does not appear to make sense.


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Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
I think "us" just refers to the imps and the hordes of the bloodwar under the nautiloid. They later get boarded by followers of Zariel.
In my absolute speculation thread
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=700069&page=2
sharp commented that it could be an elder brain, namely

Loulaum


I agree that the goblins turning hostile does not appear to make sense.


For some reason a big chunk of EA's narrative conclusions whether its dialogue or events ends up being the same thing or damn near close. Its like the writers have decided this predetermined outcome and although we could twist and wriggle a little we always end up where they want eventually.

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It would be a wasted opportunity if all of this was only the illusion of a choice. Replay value would be limited if all choices led to the same results. They spent a lot of time for changing the appearance of the swamp instead of building just one dark version. I hope that they devote more resources to meaningful story branchings in the future.


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Originally Posted by clavis
@orbax, and armoredhedgehog

Beholder seems a likely scenerio as well they have been known to do similair things. Though what if the Absolute is actually an elder brain gone mad? I mean the tadpoles are from Illithid. Then there is the conversation with Us on the ship where he says they are fleeing a great evil. Maybe something from another plane? The Far realm?

There are so many hints, and drops, and nothing really concrete, and I for one haven't explored all of them. Just now finally moving out of the druids grove, and surrounding areas to the blighted village, then goblin camp. 60+ hours and lots of characters that I'm slowly no lifeing it through. Then again it's the first act and in the grand scope of things we are pissons

.


So the pieces I have so far are:

- The hag when she takes your eye and tries to get rid of the slug says its netherese magic protecting it - crazy if you know anything about them. They deal in artefacts, very powerful ones. Or did, when they were still a civilization before the Spellplague.
- The dead illithid in goblin camp said the Absolute was a ring of illithid psionics controlling everything
- There is some "weapon" that seems to be an infernal puzzle box, which would mean it has a contract. If the gith want it and the illithids had it...its hard to know what that means. The gith have a contract with tiamat, but how theyd lose it, I cant imagine. So wtf is it. If its not an infernal puzzle box, then I really dont know. Other than something moved inside of it. The source of the control for all of the slugs? A contained netherese artifact that, if opened, removes the stasis the bugs are in?! Who knows?!
- A potential mass invasion by the illithids based on the vision from the dead mindflayer of them dropping out of deep space
- Gith doing everything they can to stop them and retrieve that thing. The stakes seem to be a lot higher than just pod people plans - and why now?!
- The land has turned crazy - that is usually A. A creatures lair or B. A lost netherese workshop and its rampant, crazy magic is fucking everything up
- We have anti-magic research in the underdark and an "escaped" illithid working with the illuminated brotherhood or whatever it is. If you listen to their NPC chatter it has something to do with some crazy research theyre playing with.

This all makes me feel like the belly of the beast is a netherese workshop, ship, town half buried and rediscovered by the illithid who have reclaimed it and are amassing an army so they can unleash all of the illithid and nautiloids at once using the artefacts and items they have discovered within to harness both magic and anti-magic powers and fuck.shit. up.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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I think we're way too shoehorned into good path.

There certainly need to be more incentives and quests that offer you alternative evil path. We're literally shoved into druid grove forcefully, unless you pick some unnatural and borderline mentally unstable choices. There's just no pragmatic evil path there, no decent agent of evil to entice you and lead you to the evil path with apparent benefits, power and status, without being a cultist looney that seems to be all over the place.

After druid grove we encounter this dying dwarf and disciples of Absolute, that's good, but it's not Druid Grove magnitude of good. There needs to be more, these guys should lead you to some "League of Evil" outpost somewhere midway to temple, where they can intro you to a bunch of characters evil side and charismatic characters at that - maybe some evil bard to mirror that great tiefling bard and a some fighters and such who are not just your hurr durr goblins, but maybe drow/human/etc that might be disciples of Absolute, but not batshit insane about it.

That fallen Paladin of Tyr is a great example of ultimately bad apple that you can reason with. I am sure there are more with Absolute side that are not just "hurr durr we love killing and flaying, praise our holy god!", but are more of - it's a good business or smarter to be on a winning side kind of guys that you can find common ground with. Have these characters be charismatic in their own way, so you might actually want to continue with them, even if it's under banner of some fake god and with goblins and murdehobos galore.

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Either the Dwarf and the 2 brothers can take you, or even Minthara can come up to you REALLY early on looking for survivors and stuff and entice you there, and offer an alliance.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
I think we're way too shoehorned into good path.

There certainly need to be more incentives and quests that offer you alternative evil path. We're literally shoved into druid grove forcefully, unless you pick some unnatural and borderline mentally unstable choices. There's just no pragmatic evil path there, no decent agent of evil to entice you and lead you to the evil path with apparent benefits, power and status, without being a cultist looney that seems to be all over the place.

After druid grove we encounter this dying dwarf and disciples of Absolute, that's good, but it's not Druid Grove magnitude of good. There needs to be more, these guys should lead you to some "League of Evil" outpost somewhere midway to temple, where they can intro you to a bunch of characters evil side and charismatic characters at that - maybe some evil bard to mirror that great tiefling bard and a some fighters and such who are not just your hurr durr goblins, but maybe drow/human/etc that might be disciples of Absolute, but not batshit insane about it.

That fallen Paladin of Tyr is a great example of ultimately bad apple that you can reason with. I am sure there are more with Absolute side that are not just "hurr durr we love killing and flaying, praise our holy god!", but are more of - it's a good business or smarter to be on a winning side kind of guys that you can find common ground with. Have these characters be charismatic in their own way, so you might actually want to continue with them, even if it's under banner of some fake god and with goblins and murdehobos galore.



Wow you just articulated all I wanted in such a short post! Bravo! You're right you are basically shoved into the druid grove and route, logically it makes sense to go down that path. Siding with goblins is way too out there for me.

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Mindflayers using netherese artifacts or a netherese mage using mindflayers
They have set up an interesting story.

If the artifact is indeed the contract between Gith and Tiamat and Shadowheart stole it then the followers of Shar must be desperate. Send a lvl 1 Cleric to steal the powerbase of the Gith? She was not alone, but she has it.

Sven promised an evil approach would be rewarding. As it is now it is mostly confusing. It feels like they changed the story at some point and only managed to implement half of the changes for early access.


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Originally Posted by clavis

A quick ask, did Palpatine keep the good people around, aka the jedi? Which if you keep the grove alive is just the same as him keeping the jedi around? And Anakin was looking for the quick route the reward route which Palpatine offered him.

Also he used greedy factions to further his plans, played one side against the other, killed anyone that got in his way either himself, or others. None of what Palpatine did was the quick route, the easy route. The one that gave him the most rewards. Then there is the fact that Palpatine was not any where near lvl 1 when things went down. At level one he was serving a master that offered little in the way of rewards, other then him getting stronger. It wasn't until he was strong enough that he struck his master down, and started getting rewarded. Which again wasn't at level 4.

You siiiiir need to stop quoting Palpatine!! and remember your only level 1 - 4! Not 10 - 15! Anyway back to my gaming, have fun.


Haha, I was referencing their big bad person being more palpatine-like. Being caught up in their machinations should feel reasonable, slowly eroding your moral compass. You find out later that the little thing you do played into something far larger than yourself. You right now are an innocent babe, and their palpatine should be finding and turning you a little bit at a time. Right now its the joker pulling up in an onfire trashcan on wheels saying "wanna hop in?!"


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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