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I seriously don't get it. 5e is already an edition with a lot of hp inflation and low lethality, mainly if compared to 2e. Why inflate enemy hit points even further? I saw an lv 4 spider in a cave with freaking 138 hp. Back on 2e times, Vecna, a Legendary demigod Lich had 150 hp. Demogorgon, one of the most legendary demon lords, had 200 hp. Myrkul avatar, 228. Goblins which you cold slay an entire army with an single fireball on previous BG, takes so much time to die. It is not fun or engaging, just boring.

138 hp is enough to soak 18 heavy crossbow bolts from a good(+3 dex/str) hunter. firing dozens of eldritch blasts, firebolts, arrow shots and polleaxes swings is not fun or engaging. Just tedious.

5e already has a lot of bloat. We don't need more hp bloat. Especially in a turn based game with slow animations and no option to use concurrent turns like ToEE had.

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I think this is in part one of the dominoes which fell as a result of surfaces and AoE's everywhere, and really, really easy advantage from Height and backstabbing making hits a lot easier. All that stuff in the game made it easier to kill enemies, so they tossed in higher HP to compensate for increased damage, instead of reducing the extra sources of damage.

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I personally would prefer large numbers of low-HP/low-AC opponents....re: the 1 HP minions from 4e. Being able to have large swarms of enemies out but ability to cut them down quickly and easily makes for an epic feel.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
I think this is in part one of the dominoes which fell as a result of surfaces and AoE's everywhere, and really, really easy advantage from Height and backstabbing making hits a lot easier. All that stuff in the game made it easier to kill enemies, so they tossed in higher HP to compensate for increased damage, instead of reducing the extra sources of damage.


Make the enemies using this stuff against the player too. However, making enemies able to soak dozens of arbalests/longbows shots that should be enough to kill an bear in a well placed shot(critical) and was able to do that on older editions is just silly.

Turn based = ok. There are a lot of amazing TB games. Dark Sun : Shattered Sands and Wake of the Ravager, Knights of the Chalice and Temple of Elemental Evil.

Turn based + large scale battles + ULTRA ridiculous hp bloat where spiders can have 138 hp and goblins 50 hp + slow animations = not ok. The game becomes tedious and instead of cool spells and weapons feeling cool, they fell worthless.

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The HP bloat is an issue now, and it will be later too.

I want to feel like I can one-shot goblins at level 4 with a good Eldritch Blast.

Larian may also decide to put goblins in further down the line, and I do not want them scaled up hardcore.
What's the point of having a caster learn abilities like Fireball if you can't use it to cut out all the fodder in an epic explosion?

I can see it now. A horde of goblins when your characters are level 5/6/7, and they're all the same level as you for reasons.
Gale throws a Fireball, just making a giant floor covered in fire, not killing a single goblin.
Then he gets focused and dies immediately.

That's not the game I want to be playing.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Make the enemies using this stuff against the player too.


They didn't change the PC's HP and AC, just the enemy's.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
I seriously don't get it. 5e is already an edition with a lot of hp inflation and low lethality, mainly if compared to 2e. Why inflate enemy hit points even further? I saw an lv 4 spider in a cave with freaking 138 hp. Back on 2e times, Vecna, a Legendary demigod Lich had 150 hp. Demogorgon, one of the most legendary demon lords, had 200 hp. Myrkul avatar, 228. Goblins which you cold slay an entire army with an single fireball on previous BG, takes so much time to die. It is not fun or engaging, just boring.

138 hp is enough to soak 18 heavy crossbow bolts from a good(+3 dex/str) hunter. firing dozens of eldritch blasts, firebolts, arrow shots and polleaxes swings is not fun or engaging. Just tedious.

5e already has a lot of bloat. We don't need more hp bloat. Especially in a turn based game with slow animations and no option to use concurrent turns like ToEE had.

that one was a boss, and it wasn't her HP that was the problem, it was the ability to one shot 2 of my companions a turn, while spawning 6 or 7 little ones, and having another grown one as backup, or 2 depending on what you did. still killed her without cheesing, early witch bolt for the win.

Her hp do to limitations was something I could see. now doing that when you fight Guts is stupid, thankfully they avoided that. yet like the 2 shot ability of the spider, the amount of magic, surface creating, sheer amount of damage that ends with tpk in one to 3 rounds is again a bigger problem. oh yeah imo...

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Myrkul avatar, 228.


If the game has a hidden opportunity to meet with one of the avatars of the Gods, I wonder how much HP he will have if the player decides to attack


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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Myrkul avatar, 228.


If the game has a hidden opportunity to meet with one of the avatars of the Gods, I wonder how much HP he will have if the player decides to attack

I'd ask why I player would, but figure I'd already know the answer.....

4k easy

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Its just one design choice leading to more issues. Subpar to terrible design choices compounding and creating more issues.

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Originally Posted by clavis
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Myrkul avatar, 228.


If the game has a hidden opportunity to meet with one of the avatars of the Gods, I wonder how much HP he will have if the player decides to attack

I'd ask why I player would, but figure I'd already know the answer.....

4k easy



The demon commander from the prologue has already been killed, there was a video on YouTube. I will not be surprised if they will kill 4k avatar too for achievement

As another question, even ordinary spider fights are difficult for me


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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Myrkul avatar, 228.


If the game has a hidden opportunity to meet with one of the avatars of the Gods, I wonder how much HP he will have if the player decides to attack


On 2e, see the book Faiths & Avatars. Myrkul stats is on page 124. He has 228 hp.
On 5e, IDK but expect stats similar to Tiamat.
On BG3, probably over 8k

Originally Posted by clavis

that one was a boss, and it wasn't her HP that was the problem, it was the ability to one shot 2 of my companions a turn, while spawning 6 or 7


Vecna, a legendary demigod lich on Vecna's reborn had 150 hp. And was far above an regular "boss". The module himself recommend starting on lv 10 and that players should't fight him. Should try to escape from his realm of dread and flee from him. Cuz you honestly even at epic levels has little to no chances against him...

Dragons on Original BG2 was """"bosses"""" and had about 200 hp. Firkraag, an Dragon which most people can only defeat on later chapters at lv 15+, had 184 hp.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Make the enemies using this stuff against the player too.


They didn't change the PC's HP and AC, just the enemy's.


And the change only made the combat extremely boring.

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I can't wait to see the 10 hour challenge on killing the avatar of God from bloggers and streamers, and Easter eggs after

8k with a strong hero is powerful. I wonder how they'll kill them and what will happen after (I don't believe no one can break the game)


Yes, 0.1% of players will do it, but it will be interesting for everyone to watch on YouTube


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I really don't want to see HP bloat either. It belongs in grindy MMO's with 15 random people raiding a boss. Not here.

"Bosses" can have resistances and they have minions. They can have an unfair advantage that is more intelligent than giving them +100HP.

For our characters to feel heroic, their stats, including HP, need to be comparable to the enemies. We need to be able to believe that we fight in the same league. Maybe we could 1v1 a boss.. with a little help. But all that is thrown out the window the second something has 10x your HP or some ridiculous amount in the hundreds or thousands. It instantly means you need an MMO style gang, or you need to CHEESE somehow. Like plopping down 8 barrels from your inventory and blowing them up for 300 damage on an "unsuspecting" enemy. D&D isn't about that and I don't want that in BG3. "Video game" doesn't cut it here.

Last edited by 1varangian; 17/10/20 07:42 PM.
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@op cause getting lengthy, and scrolly. so your last post

true, but even in those fights most times you weren't being one shot. As for the hp difference take into consideration the amount of surface damage you can do, with cantrips, fall damage, shove etc. I seperated fall, and shove do to this fight where you can burn the web beneath her. Dealing damage etc, and then shove which you can do to get fall damage. So the hp bloat currently makes sense, until the other issues get resolved, bonus action shove, action attack, action cantrip burning plus surface damage, then barrels... So again the hp bloat makes sense, when other things are unbalanced, and super cheese mode. Even with the hp bloat no barrels, no shoves, no cantrips, one surface (brine) the fight didn't last very long. With the things I didn't do it would of been even shorter, and not much of a challenge. Perhaps bump her AC up? then you still have to deal with those who use swiss, or add extra cheddar. (okay to not invalidate people) yes it's an option.

Still how would you go about not bumping hp, and still make it a difficult fight?


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Originally Posted by clavis


Still how would you go about not bumping hp, and still make it a difficult fight?



Did you played ToEE? A lot of people complain about how ToEE is hard and ... No HP bloat. Just put more enemies, more traps and so on.

All D&D turn based games avoided HP bloat. And all good D&D games too.

Part of the appeal of D&D is a heroic power fantasy. If your powers are worthless and you need gimmicky to kill enemies, you kill it from the game.


Originally Posted by 1varangian
I really don't want to see HP bloat either. It belongs in grindy MMO's with 15 random people raiding a boss. Not here.

"Bosses" can have resistances and they have minions. They can have an unfair advantage that is more intelligent than giving them +100HP.

For our characters to feel heroic, their stats, including HP, need to be comparable to the enemies. We need to be able to believe that we fight in the same league. Maybe we could 1v1 a boss.. with a little help. But all that is thrown out the window the second something has 10x your HP or some ridiculous amount in the hundreds or thousands. It instantly means you need an MMO style gang, or you need to CHEESE somehow. Like plopping down 8 barrels from your inventory and blowing them up for 300 damage on an "unsuspecting" enemy. D&D isn't about that and I don't want that in BG3. "Video game" doesn't cut it here.


I strongly agree and even mmos, was much better BEFORE the bloat was the norm.

See for eg, ultima online and dark sun online : crimson sands. Even bosses could die in matter of minutes...

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Yes, 0.1% of players will do it, but it will be interesting for everyone to watch on YouTube


No, that would be a extremely boring thing to watch.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 17/10/20 08:09 PM.
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I don't think the HP bloating is that bad in this game, considering the generally lower AC.

I think it is a viable approach to the encounters that makes classes that attack the AC a bit more reliable.

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Originally Posted by Eugerome
I don't think the HP bloating is that bad in this game, considering the generally lower AC.

I think it is a viable approach to the encounters that makes classes that attack the AC a bit more reliable.

And the classes that don't attack AC.... can just suck?

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Originally Posted by Eugerome
I don't think the HP bloating is that bad in this game, considering the generally lower AC.

I think it is a viable approach to the encounters that makes classes that attack the AC a bit more reliable.


Is bad in ANY game.

At least make it OPTIONAL!!!!

Eg - "original AC and HP (not recommended)" on settings.

So people who enjoy having to hit an spider with 30 crossbow bolts can enjoy their slow and tedious fights and people who enjoy deadlier encounters can enjoy their fights.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Eugerome
I don't think the HP bloating is that bad in this game, considering the generally lower AC.

I think it is a viable approach to the encounters that makes classes that attack the AC a bit more reliable.

And the classes that don't attack AC.... can just suck?


didn't see that in his post. Each class should viable, and reliable. But why have classes that rely on AC to defend against, or get their attack through. When currently all the other options are far more reliable, and prevelant through the game. Currently in it's state their is almost 0 zeros to run a fighter, or any class that is melee heavy. Why because your wizards can do more damage, and stay back then a fighter. They do it through surface effects, plus initial hit, the same goes with rogues. Clerics are always viable so its smarter to run 2 clerics in the game in it's current state to keep everyone healed up from the surface areas, and the occasional melee combatant.

So your just telling melee heavy, AC dependant classes your useless go sit on the bench, and think of your life choses.

Last edited by clavis; 17/10/20 08:18 PM.
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