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The absolute needs to work on recruitment strategy. Their current approach "demand everything, offer little in return" only attracts followers of Loviathar and they already have a goddess.


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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by clavis

A quick ask, did Palpatine keep the good people around, aka the jedi? Which if you keep the grove alive is just the same as him keeping the jedi around? And Anakin was looking for the quick route the reward route which Palpatine offered him.

Also he used greedy factions to further his plans, played one side against the other, killed anyone that got in his way either himself, or others. None of what Palpatine did was the quick route, the easy route. The one that gave him the most rewards. Then there is the fact that Palpatine was not any where near lvl 1 when things went down. At level one he was serving a master that offered little in the way of rewards, other then him getting stronger. It wasn't until he was strong enough that he struck his master down, and started getting rewarded. Which again wasn't at level 4.

You siiiiir need to stop quoting Palpatine!! and remember your only level 1 - 4! Not 10 - 15! Anyway back to my gaming, have fun.


Haha, I was referencing their big bad person being more palpatine-like. Being caught up in their machinations should feel reasonable, slowly eroding your moral compass. You find out later that the little thing you do played into something far larger than yourself. You right now are an innocent babe, and their palpatine should be finding and turning you a little bit at a time. Right now its the joker pulling up in an onfire trashcan on wheels saying "wanna hop in?!"


Why would you not hop in??? thats a sweet ride.

Still that is how it's feeling every little thing we are doing is playing into a bigger machine. Even using tadpole, or not using it, siding with the grove, siding with goblins. going after the hag, it's all lil cogs in the deathstar... (eh not my best, but I'm doing alot of eyerolling over other stuff.) The deathstar itself being made up of everything we do, which leads to us being good, evil, neutral, or even mindflayer. Which I rather enjoy what they are doing with the last one, well all of it really.

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I remember cracking up at her overly exagerated and sometimes out of place facial animations, specially when it's reward time at night. Like Larian went full Merrie Melodies with this char which ironically is supposed to be an Evil Drow.

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Originally Posted by clavis
Originally Posted by Orbax

Right now its the joker pulling up in an onfire trashcan on wheels saying "wanna hop in?!"


Why would you not hop in??? thats a sweet ride.

Still that is how it's feeling every little thing we are doing is playing into a bigger machine. Even using tadpole, or not using it, siding with the grove, siding with goblins. going after the hag, it's all lil cogs in the deathstar... (eh not my best, but I'm doing alot of eyerolling over other stuff.) The deathstar itself being made up of everything we do, which leads to us being good, evil, neutral, or even mindflayer. Which I rather enjoy what they are doing with the last one, well all of it really.


In all honesty, if they did something that blatant id be so damn intrigued id hop in immediately to see where it was going. I might not get anything, Ill probably die, but its gonna be crazy. Id take preposterous over pedestrian any day. This...if I hadnt gotten some rad video game sex, Id probably have reloaded the game back to the decision point save I made.

I don't have much more to say on the subject. Ill invoke Godwin's Law and say if the writing team couldn't make Hitler an appealing choice, then don't say youre taking it seriously.

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What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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+1 I liked the ending of the EA evil playthrough, but I had a real hard time motivating it up until then. I don't do anything and I'm not promised anything but still I'm trusted enough and feel like it's worthwhile to take the evil path. I want to feel Minthara's betrayal and I want another reason than being a goblin lover to follow her.

As a female drow I had an extra hard time accepting the road to the more interesting ending
(Minthara alive, new road to Moonruse unlocked)
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- The magnetism of the Absolute - Lets say there is a feeling of shared connection. You meet people who were on the ship too who do not trust you - your entire party, for instance. Yet you walk into a goblin fortress as a tiefling and a drow warlord is like "yo, I feel connected. Go slaughter a village for me then we are gonna sacrifice them onto the altar of the absolute and we'll have sex on their blood". Bruh, I just got out of hell like 3 days ago and accidentally found this place. You're not moving in yet, we arent even dating, why is this going so fast?! The majority of time the brain slug has only garnered distrust from others because they know what it is and that everyone who has one is a risk. Its only the people without them who are gettingg mind controlled who think its pretty great. I just dont see it as a believable wand-wave for things going that well. Its why I mentioned the quests. "fine, I sense you might be useful. Now prove it.


I am planning an Evil EA playthrough but have been watching Let's Plays and can confirm that the initial scene with Minthara is confusing and underwhelming. Walking into Minthara's lair a total stranger and instantly being awarded with a crucial mission just does not make any sense, unless Minthara is barking mad. But that's not how she is presented in the game, she comes across as a zealot for the Absolute but that still doesn't explain her unusual instant trust for the PC.

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Originally Posted by dmwyvern
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- The magnetism of the Absolute - Lets say there is a feeling of shared connection. You meet people who were on the ship too who do not trust you - your entire party, for instance. Yet you walk into a goblin fortress as a tiefling and a drow warlord is like "yo, I feel connected. Go slaughter a village for me then we are gonna sacrifice them onto the altar of the absolute and we'll have sex on their blood". Bruh, I just got out of hell like 3 days ago and accidentally found this place. You're not moving in yet, we arent even dating, why is this going so fast?! The majority of time the brain slug has only garnered distrust from others because they know what it is and that everyone who has one is a risk. Its only the people without them who are gettingg mind controlled who think its pretty great. I just dont see it as a believable wand-wave for things going that well. Its why I mentioned the quests. "fine, I sense you might be useful. Now prove it.


I am planning an Evil EA playthrough but have been watching Let's Plays and can confirm that the initial scene with Minthara is confusing and underwhelming. Walking into Minthara's lair a total stranger and instantly being awarded with a crucial mission just does not make any sense, unless Minthara is barking mad. But that's not how she is presented in the game, she comes across as a zealot for the Absolute but that still doesn't explain her unusual instant trust for the PC.



The absolute actually want's you dead both Minthara and the always dead cleric goblin make this abundantly clear. The cleric just purely wants you gone, Minthara wants to use you and sees the lust in bloodlust during the druid circle attack. She is also VERY into power, and if you can convince her that you HAVE the power, then she will follow.

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It seems that the followers of the absolute do not know that they have tadpoles. I guess Minthara would be surprised if someone told her. Could be an interesting dialogue.


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I hate that you end up having to
Slay all the goblins anyways in the Goblin route for EXP since they turn hostile.

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Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
It seems that the followers of the absolute do not know that they have tadpoles. I guess Minthara would be surprised if someone told her. Could be an interesting dialogue.



This is an interesting point. You run into people from the ship who know you have a brain slug and you run into followers of the Absolute, who know you as a true soul. From the first, a relatively recent excursion by a spelljammer where the crew had no qualms about making you watch them drop a worm in your eye; and the second a relatively new (for a religion) cult that is (if you believe the dead mind flayer) a group of the same type of folks on the spelljammer but ...didnt? let you know they put slugs in your brains?

Its good that I can't figure out their plotline - it means its not simple - but if you have, at the surface:

1. A roaming, kidnapping, spelljammer squid group implanting dormant slugs blatantly
2. A subterranean squid group implanting dormant slugly slyly
3. A hag that said the slugs were protected by netherese magic
4. The netherese were artificers and have since gone extinct (though, I suppose Gale could be one...hmmm)

We could likely assume that the squids are sourcing dormant slugs from the same rare source - some kind of netherese artifact.

But! The people on the ship seemed to be between school teacher thralls and ones scheduled for exaltation. There didn't seem to be a middle class like these "True Souls". You either were a slave or you knew you had it but thats ok, youre about to be a squid. The class structure is weird because Minthara, if you lie to her about Halsin and say youre on a mission to get him, says "I have a new mission for you, kill the grove". You ask why and she says because it shows our power in the region the absolute has claimed. So wait, you can just give me new orders? Can I just give you new orders right now then, too? Is that how True Souls work?

If you tell her to get out of your mind when she mind reads for the grove you can bluff and say youre the chosen - a failure has her say "good, then killing you will show my superiority".

So, it does seem they don't know its a slug. Minthara just says she can feel the Absolute moving around in her and recognizes it in you. It doesn't seem to have any issues with brain slug carriers murdering each other, even though it means the ejection of the DuraSlug™ into whatever environment the host died in. Plus, that would let the other True Soul see that and feel a connection to it - potentially revealing their own filthy secret.

Im not saying they mean to have a bulletproof plot right now considering all the little pieces of information you can gather and then apply logic to, but I think that the importance of the DuraSlug™ and the loose control over the True Souls and their extreme aggression. And that odd scene at the start where the True Soul dwarf died outside the Owlbear cave and they were searching for ship people - and were KOS to them apparently as they tried to slaughter you the second they found out. So, why are you all to be eradicated? Youre "True Souls" who know the truth and didn't get exalted? Those ships are there to make one of two things? The underground place goes through the extra effort of subversion to create armies? Thats a lot of noise to be making right now for a small army with a new god bent on domination and subjugation and the subversion or destruction of other beliefs.

Overall, I remain confused by their tactics.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Maybe the mindflayers would have finished the process of creating true-souls if not for the crash. As it is the amnesia is not there and they do not want the survivors to tell the true souls what they really are


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Minthara is too bipolar to have ever survived in Lolthian drow society, you can't be that crazy unless you're a matron mother or at least a high priestess and get away with living - someone would shank you

the fact that she has sex with you immediately is fine, Drow are like that, but it would have been nice to have more beforehand:

Minthara should absolutely explain the absolute to you. She should understand that you're from the ship and see you as a gift, she should give you the sales pitch on the religion. She should tell you WHY the absolute is building an army. She should show us the humans who are living in harmony with the absolute. Instead of murdering all the tieflings, you should kill their leaders and the rest should be given the choice to join or die.

Even Lolth's drow don't massacre everyone when they take an area. They take slaves, soldiers, etc. The Absolute should be a *less chaotic* force of evil than Lolth, and we should have some reasons why we do things. "Evil!" isn't good enough, that's not a motivation

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Originally Posted by override367
Minthara is too bipolar to have ever survived in Lolthian drow society, you can't be that crazy unless you're a matron mother or at least a high priestess and get away with living - someone would shank you

the fact that she has sex with you immediately is fine, Drow are like that, but it would have been nice to have more beforehand:

Minthara should absolutely explain the absolute to you. She should understand that you're from the ship and see you as a gift, she should give you the sales pitch on the religion. She should tell you WHY the absolute is building an army. She should show us the humans who are living in harmony with the absolute. Instead of murdering all the tieflings, you should kill their leaders and the rest should be given the choice to join or die.

Even Lolth's drow don't massacre everyone when they take an area. They take slaves, soldiers, etc. The Absolute should be a *less chaotic* force of evil than Lolth, and we should have some reasons why we do things. "Evil!" isn't good enough, that's not a motivation



Yes, that would be a good idea. The player should not specifically look for this opportunity himself, he should be guided and given an informed choice.
But I have an assumption that not everything is so simple with the Absolute, and many interesting situations await us in the future. Perhaps she will get rid of the tadpole, stop serving the Absolute and will be the law-evil with us, strive for personal power

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Minthara should absolutely explain the absolute to you. She should understand that you're from the ship and see you as a gift, she should give you the sales pitch on the religion. She should tell you WHY the absolute is building an army. She should show us the humans who are living in harmony with the absolute. Instead of murdering all the tieflings, you should kill their leaders and the rest should be given the choice to join or die.

Even Lolth's drow don't massacre everyone when they take an area. They take slaves, soldiers, etc. The Absolute should be a *less chaotic* force of evil than Lolth, and we should have some reasons why we do things. "Evil!" isn't good enough, that's not a motivation


Thank you for writing this up. Minthara does not clue you in on anything and thus comes across as a one-dimensional villain nobody in their right mind would betray everyone they have met so far for.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez


Thank you for writing this up. Minthara does not clue you in on anything and thus comes across as a one-dimensional villain nobody in their right mind would betray everyone they have met so far for.

I don't see one-dimensional as a problem. That can mean focused and efficient. Her focus is obviously gaining the favor of the absolute. I think the real problem is that she does not tell the player why working for the absolute would be a good deal in the players situation. "Don't worry, no true soul has ever turned into a mindflayer" would be a start. Larian obviously did not want to spoil too much about what the absolute is and what its goals are. That creates problems. "Hey there stranger, work for the NTFQ on some high risk job" "Why and what is the NTFQ" "Some intelligence agency somewhere with some purpose. I can tell you nothing about the details of the mission, our country or the salary. Are you in?"

Make the dream or the encounter with Edowin point the player toward the absolute option
Explain at least a bit about what the absolute is
Explain why the player does not need to worry about turning into a mindflayer by abandoning attempts to ged rid of the tadpole
Explain what the absolute has to offer and why it is likely to win the fight with the other religions and establish dominance in Faerun

Last edited by ArmouredHedgehog; 21/10/20 05:41 PM.

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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
It seems that the followers of the absolute do not know that they have tadpoles. I guess Minthara would be surprised if someone told her. Could be an interesting dialogue.



This is an interesting point. You run into people from the ship who know you have a brain slug and you run into followers of the Absolute, who know you as a true soul. From the first, a relatively recent excursion by a spelljammer where the crew had no qualms about making you watch them drop a worm in your eye; and the second a relatively new (for a religion) cult that is (if you believe the dead mind flayer) a group of the same type of folks on the spelljammer but ...didnt? let you know they put slugs in your brains?

Its good that I can't figure out their plotline - it means its not simple - but if you have, at the surface:

1. A roaming, kidnapping, spelljammer squid group implanting dormant slugs blatantly
2. A subterranean squid group implanting dormant slugly slyly
3. A hag that said the slugs were protected by netherese magic
4. The netherese were artificers and have since gone extinct (though, I suppose Gale could be one...hmmm)

We could likely assume that the squids are sourcing dormant slugs from the same rare source - some kind of netherese artifact.

But! The people on the ship seemed to be between school teacher thralls and ones scheduled for exaltation. There didn't seem to be a middle class like these "True Souls". You either were a slave or you knew you had it but thats ok, youre about to be a squid. The class structure is weird because Minthara, if you lie to her about Halsin and say youre on a mission to get him, says "I have a new mission for you, kill the grove". You ask why and she says because it shows our power in the region the absolute has claimed. So wait, you can just give me new orders? Can I just give you new orders right now then, too? Is that how True Souls work?

If you tell her to get out of your mind when she mind reads for the grove you can bluff and say youre the chosen - a failure has her say "good, then killing you will show my superiority".

So, it does seem they don't know its a slug. Minthara just says she can feel the Absolute moving around in her and recognizes it in you. It doesn't seem to have any issues with brain slug carriers murdering each other, even though it means the ejection of the DuraSlug™ into whatever environment the host died in. Plus, that would let the other True Soul see that and feel a connection to it - potentially revealing their own filthy secret.

Im not saying they mean to have a bulletproof plot right now considering all the little pieces of information you can gather and then apply logic to, but I think that the importance of the DuraSlug™ and the loose control over the True Souls and their extreme aggression. And that odd scene at the start where the True Soul dwarf died outside the Owlbear cave and they were searching for ship people - and were KOS to them apparently as they tried to slaughter you the second they found out. So, why are you all to be eradicated? Youre "True Souls" who know the truth and didn't get exalted? Those ships are there to make one of two things? The underground place goes through the extra effort of subversion to create armies? Thats a lot of noise to be making right now for a small army with a new god bent on domination and subjugation and the subversion or destruction of other beliefs.

Overall, I remain confused by their tactics.


Small point, The netherese are not extinct. Not every Netherese arcanist was on Thulthanthar when it crashed into Myth Drannor ~14 years before the events of the game

At the very least, textually, there is a Netherese Lord in the host tower of the arcane in luskan, and there is a coven of Netherese Sorceresses in Anauroch. Presumably there are other Netherese wizards in Anauroch, Telamont wouldn't have trusted all of them to go on his great crusade with him - there were also many survivors of Thultanthar that teleported away or were on the ground on various assignments all over Faerun

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Originally Posted by override367


Small point, The netherese are not extinct. Not every Netherese arcanist was on Thulthanthar when it crashed into Myth Drannor ~14 years before the events of the game

At the very least, textually, there is a Netherese Lord in the host tower of the arcane in luskan, and there is a coven of Netherese Sorceresses in Anauroch. Presumably there are other Netherese wizards in Anauroch, Telamont wouldn't have trusted all of them to go on his great crusade with him - there were also many survivors of Thultanthar that teleported away or were on the ground on various assignments all over Faerun


Good points! The only thing is that Karus' Folly with Mystril was -339 DR and BG is 1494. The Time of Troubles was more than a century ago when Mystra was destroyed by Helm and yet a new Mystra took the mantle. The Netherese, as far as anyone has known them, have been gone for quite some time. The reappearance of Thulthanthar and its destruction were a relatively quick blip on that map. You're right that some probably exist out there, but not in the sense of "The Netherese" or its empire. You can't go find or visit them or anything as a people. I think there is one city left out in the wild still though? Probably still jet setting around the Astral Sea plotting devious things.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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