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Originally Posted by Aurgelmir
To me it seems mostly: We don't know enough about their motivations yet.

And I suspect there's a link between "Snowflakes" as you put it, and True Souls


There is a goblin reading Volo's book at their camp outside the temple at the top of a "tower". He says a few interesting thing about being chosen to be a True Souls,
including that only people with lots of "magical power" are chosen by the Absolute to become True Souls.

Last edited by azarhal; 19/10/20 07:52 PM.
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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I have, admittedly just skimmed a lot of this, so I may have missed where someone may have actually pointed this out, but we are having this discussion with the full knowledge that the current batch of Origin characters can be the Player Character, right?


Yes. But it seems the vast majority of people prefer custom characters and rather dislike Larian's Origin mechanic since DOS2. It'd be nice to see a poll to get an idea of numbers though, I can only speak from what I read around this forums.

Yeah, like or dislike really isn't the issue here. The issue is that of course they're all "special snowflakes" because they can be the main protagonist. Since this is the case, and even just running with BG, Bhaalspawn would equate to "special snowflake", the whole argument is moot. They are special because they have to be.



And that is an issue by it self.

Because everyone is special, no one is. Especially your custom character which is what I and many others (From what i've read) want to play in a DnD game. Custom characters have no story. I'll copy what I said from another thread about this.

"Because compared to Origin characters, Custom characters fall flat, and are just cardboard cutouts with zero personality or history. That was a major criticism of OS2 and it remains here. Too many resources go into making all these Origin characters playable and making it so you can see their story in "first person view", and Custom characters are left blank. It leaves a sour taste just calling the main character "custom". In every RPG it's just "main character" or a name, in this one its "oh custom". That to me just comes off weird and terrible. Because every Origin character can be played, they allll have to be special in some way, which means no one is special, and ofc...same goes for Custom even more. Custom is nothing.

Before you are on the ship, your character has zero history. Yes you get your "race" dialogues, but that's not unique. That's race dialogue, that's not YOUR character dialogue. They have no history and just "appear" out of nowhere when the game starts it looks like. Every CRPG does something to make the main character have some sort of background, a link to the world. Even pillars 1 (where u are a blank slate), has the character traveling to a new place and a mandatory NPC asks you for your reasoning, which gives your character a place in the world. An actual place, not some headcanon stuff and some elaborate history players can make. All CRPGS/RPGS do it. Even fallout NV (which is considered a damn good rpg by majority) has some backstory, like you being a courier, outside of that it's a clean slate."

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Your character also get the [Baldurian] dialog options and makes comments about being from Baldur's Gate, including details about estaishments and people.

There's also the fact that if you add too much background to a custom then they are no longer a custom character, they're just another Origin character.

In BG1/2, CHARNAME had the exact same background as Imoen (Gorion's ward, raised Candlekeep, spoilers, etc.) and had zero personality. This was so that the player could do whatever they wanted and use their imagination. Good or Evil, any race, class, either gender, etc.

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Originally Posted by gish
Your character also get the [Baldurian] dialog options and makes comments about being from Baldur's Gate, including details about estaishments and people.

There's also the fact that if you add too much background to a custom then they are no longer a custom character, they're just another Origin character.

In BG1/2, CHARNAME had the exact same background as Imoen (Gorion's ward, raised Candlekeep, spoilers, etc.) and had zero personality. This was so that the player could do whatever they wanted and use their imagination. Good or Evil, any race, class, either gender, etc.



I already countered that up top. That's not unique to the player. That's not a YOUR thing. That's a race thing.

In Pillars 1, your companions would note not just your background/history, but they would actively ASK about you and your plans, your past. It made your character feel like they were part of this world. In bg3, I have yet to have any companions ask anything about me. Either I missed that dialogue, which in of itself is a design flaw, or it just doesn't happen which is an issue too. I mentioned pillars 1 because it did a blank slate character really well and it is the most recent game. I don't remember too much about Pathfinder since it has been awhile.

Last edited by UnderworldHades; 19/10/20 08:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I have, admittedly just skimmed a lot of this, so I may have missed where someone may have actually pointed this out, but we are having this discussion with the full knowledge that the current batch of Origin characters can be the Player Character, right?


Yes. But it seems the vast majority of people prefer custom characters and rather dislike Larian's Origin mechanic since DOS2. It'd be nice to see a poll to get an idea of numbers though, I can only speak from what I read around this forums.

Yeah, like or dislike really isn't the issue here. The issue is that of course they're all "special snowflakes" because they can be the main protagonist. Since this is the case, and even just running with BG, Bhaalspawn would equate to "special snowflake", the whole argument is moot. They are special because they have to be.



And that is an issue by it self.

Because everyone is special, no one is. Especially your custom character which is what I and many others (From what i've read) want to play in a DnD game. Custom characters have no story. I'll copy what I said from another thread about this.

"Because compared to Origin characters, Custom characters fall flat, and are just cardboard cutouts with zero personality or history. That was a major criticism of OS2 and it remains here. Too many resources go into making all these Origin characters playable and making it so you can see their story in "first person view", and Custom characters are left blank. It leaves a sour taste just calling the main character "custom". In every RPG it's just "main character" or a name, in this one its "oh custom". That to me just comes off weird and terrible. Because every Origin character can be played, they allll have to be special in some way, which means no one is special, and ofc...same goes for Custom even more. Custom is nothing.

Before you are on the ship, your character has zero history. Yes you get your "race" dialogues, but that's not unique. That's race dialogue, that's not YOUR character dialogue. They have no history and just "appear" out of nowhere when the game starts it looks like. Every CRPG does something to make the main character have some sort of background, a link to the world. Even pillars 1 (where u are a blank slate), has the character traveling to a new place and a mandatory NPC asks you for your reasoning, which gives your character a place in the world. An actual place, not some headcanon stuff and some elaborate history players can make. All CRPGS/RPGS do it. Even fallout NV (which is considered a damn good rpg by majority) has some backstory, like you being a courier, outside of that it's a clean slate."


They give you the option of that in the origin characters. El Generico is the 6th choice without a fixed backstory other than race, class, background and whatever traits you decide in their responses (kind, greedy, etc). They cant make a game that takes your background of a polymorphed awakened shrub or whatever random thing you decided was your backstory.

Would 10 seconds of a random innkeeper asking you to kill a pesky giant rat in the pre-prologue satisfy you? Que the next person to gripe that THEIR character is a beekeeper from Chult who has never even been to Baldurs Gate...

Last edited by Bossk_Hogg; 19/10/20 09:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by gish
Your character also get the [Baldurian] dialog options and makes comments about being from Baldur's Gate, including details about estaishments and people.

There's also the fact that if you add too much background to a custom then they are no longer a custom character, they're just another Origin character.

In BG1/2, CHARNAME had the exact same background as Imoen (Gorion's ward, raised Candlekeep, spoilers, etc.) and had zero personality. This was so that the player could do whatever they wanted and use their imagination. Good or Evil, any race, class, either gender, etc.



I already countered that up top. That's not unique to the player. That's not a YOUR thing. That's a race thing.

In Pillars 1, your companions would note not just your background/history, but they would actively ASK about you and your plans, your past. It made your character feel like they were part of this world. In bg3, I have yet to have any companions ask anything about me. Either I missed that dialogue, which in of itself is a design flaw, or it just doesn't happen which is an issue too. I mentioned pillars 1 because it did a blank slate character really well and it is the most recent game. I don't remember too much about Pathfinder since it has been awhile.


There's never really going to be a "your" thing outside of tabletop and an interactive DM. In Pillars you could only pick from pre-fab responses, because they cant account for every possibility. Where's the response that you're an Orlan hot dog eating champion on a quest to repay his libary fines?

Last edited by Bossk_Hogg; 19/10/20 09:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg


They give you the option of that in the origin characters. El Generico is the 6th choice without a fixed backstory other than race, class, background and whatever traits you decide in their responses (kind, greedy, etc). They cant make a game that takes your background of a polymorphed awakened shrub or whatever random thing you decided was your backstory.

Would 10 seconds of a random innkeeper asking you to kill a pesky giant rat in the pre-prologue satisfy you? Que the next person to gripe that THEIR character is a beekeeper from Chult who has never even been to Baldurs Gate...


No one is talking about you coming up with your headcanon backstory and having it acknowledged in game. Pre-fab responses as you said in another response is 10x better then what we have currently.

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Originally Posted by Worm
Argonaut, if you think Xena is a completely serious piece of fiction I'm afraid we are so far apart that there's no point in further conversation.

No but I grew up watching Xena and the show took itself 100% seriously. It wasn't intended for adults. Shar'Teel is not xena but I'd already described why so I wasn't fond to do it again.


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Worm
Argonaut, if you think Xena is a completely serious piece of fiction I'm afraid we are so far apart that there's no point in further conversation.

No but I grew up watching Xena and the show took itself 100% seriously. It wasn't intended for adults. Shar'Teel is not xena but I'd already described why so I wasn't fond to do it again.



lol... I'm curious to know what Xena you watched, because it isnt the one from this reality.

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg


They give you the option of that in the origin characters. El Generico is the 6th choice without a fixed backstory other than race, class, background and whatever traits you decide in their responses (kind, greedy, etc). They cant make a game that takes your background of a polymorphed awakened shrub or whatever random thing you decided was your backstory.

Would 10 seconds of a random innkeeper asking you to kill a pesky giant rat in the pre-prologue satisfy you? Que the next person to gripe that THEIR character is a beekeeper from Chult who has never even been to Baldurs Gate...


No one is talking about you coming up with your headcanon backstory and having it acknowledged in game. Pre-fab responses as you said in another response is 10x better then what we have currently.


They do have a few options like that. You get "tell him your story" and the NPC's shrug and carry on, because its impossible to account for that many variables. If you add more, people will just whine that THEIR option isnt accounted for.




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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Worm
Argonaut, if you think Xena is a completely serious piece of fiction I'm afraid we are so far apart that there's no point in further conversation.

No but I grew up watching Xena and the show took itself 100% seriously. It wasn't intended for adults. Shar'Teel is not xena but I'd already described why so I wasn't fond to do it again.



lol... I'm curious to know what Xena you watched, because it isnt the one from this reality.

Don't get me wrong, but there is a difference between a show being made to be goofy and it taking itself 100% seriously and still being goofy and it takes two completely different levels of incompetence.


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I have, admittedly just skimmed a lot of this, so I may have missed where someone may have actually pointed this out, but we are having this discussion with the full knowledge that the current batch of Origin characters can be the Player Character, right?


Yes. But it seems the vast majority of people prefer custom characters and rather dislike Larian's Origin mechanic since DOS2. It'd be nice to see a poll to get an idea of numbers though, I can only speak from what I read around this forums.

Yeah, like or dislike really isn't the issue here. The issue is that of course they're all "special snowflakes" because they can be the main protagonist. Since this is the case, and even just running with BG, Bhaalspawn would equate to "special snowflake", the whole argument is moot. They are special because they have to be.



And that is an issue by it self.

Because everyone is special, no one is. Especially your custom character which is what I and many others (From what i've read) want to play in a DnD game. Custom characters have no story. I'll copy what I said from another thread about this.

"Because compared to Origin characters, Custom characters fall flat, and are just cardboard cutouts with zero personality or history. That was a major criticism of OS2 and it remains here. Too many resources go into making all these Origin characters playable and making it so you can see their story in "first person view", and Custom characters are left blank. It leaves a sour taste just calling the main character "custom". In every RPG it's just "main character" or a name, in this one its "oh custom". That to me just comes off weird and terrible. Because every Origin character can be played, they allll have to be special in some way, which means no one is special, and ofc...same goes for Custom even more. Custom is nothing.

Before you are on the ship, your character has zero history. Yes you get your "race" dialogues, but that's not unique. That's race dialogue, that's not YOUR character dialogue. They have no history and just "appear" out of nowhere when the game starts it looks like. Every CRPG does something to make the main character have some sort of background, a link to the world. Even pillars 1 (where u are a blank slate), has the character traveling to a new place and a mandatory NPC asks you for your reasoning, which gives your character a place in the world. An actual place, not some headcanon stuff and some elaborate history players can make. All CRPGS/RPGS do it. Even fallout NV (which is considered a damn good rpg by majority) has some backstory, like you being a courier, outside of that it's a clean slate."

There's a really simple explanation for this: Custom Character. What happens if Larian, or any developer, defines your custom character's backstory for you? I'll give you a hint: Head to the store, and buy tons of popcorn, because you're going to need it. You're going to need it because the forums will catch fire from the outrage of having to play Larian's character, instead of a custom character. How do I know? Because I've seen it happen. A good off the cuff example would be Hawke in DA 2. I would point to Shepard, in ME, but they gave you some options to choose from, from the very beginning. The thing about the FO series, from 3 on, is that yes, the main character is a clean slate, but all of the others are predefined. You have just about as much as we have here, maybe a bit more for FO 4, since spouse and child, and what little background you can get if you explore the house before you answer the door. The difference between FO and here is that none of those NPCs can be the main character.

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Whats makes all of this discussion a bit more troublesome/annoying is the high likely ness we with have NO extra NPC mods...do to of course engine design limitations (cinematic dialogues and such, same is true for DOS2...cant remember any extra playable npc mods...) like all the incredible extra NPC we have for BG2 that have quests, voices, interacts with the main game story, romancable, banter interaction with the main character and other modded NPCs etc...examples of these great extra NPCS :

KELSEY: Kelsey is a neutral good human sorcerer NPC, and is romancable if you are a female human, elf, half-elf or halfling.
Kelsey is hunted by a mage that is in need of a sorcerer for her research project. While it is not explicitly stated as such, she makes it quite clear that Kelsey will likely not survive the research she wishes to perform on him. Despite the obviously strange nature of this request, it appears that this rogue mage has a romantic interest in Kelsey as well, although she may have simply been trying to seduce him so that he would agree to help her. The hunt culminates in two encounters, spaced about one week after Kelsey joins the party, and one week after the first encounter....

FADE : CN Female Fey'ri (Elven Tiefling) Thief
Fade has led a bit of a rough existence, but has wound up working with the Shadow Thieves. She wants to help you rescue Imoen & offers to join your party when you talk to Aran Linvail. She has a bit of a mean-streak in her, but overcoming her heritage (the Fey'ri are NOT a nice group of people) is central to her story.

VALEN: CE Female Vampire Fighter/Thief
Your contact with the rival guild, a possible party member. She forces you to play Evil, choosing the Evil path for you in many instances. She comments often & keeps in character as a bloodthirsty Vampire who'd rather slaughter anything that gets in her way (or even annoys her) than talk her way out of a situation. Her custom script is very impressive. She has ridiculously high stats and advantages, but at the cost of some serious disadvantages (sunlight). Rather than emphasize the NPC’s character through parentheticals, or even dialogue, her character is displayed more through her actions (and not just quest-related actions).

ADRIAN: Half-elf Sorcerer
After several recent catastrophes, managed to land a brief but involuntary stint as Irenicus' pet wandmaker. Kill the duergar who guard him, and he'll be quite happy to lend his magic to your cause. To repay the debt, to exact vengeance... Adrian has lived an interesting life, for lack of a better term, though he's hoping to finally put his past behind him. Aside from his magic, he has a background in espionage and a decadent -- some might say romantic -- streak that has gotten him into trouble in the past. He once pursued (and ultimately wrecked) a political career with one of the most notorious organizations in the Realms, and may very much enjoy the opportunities for intrigue the Shadow Thieves have to offer...

ANGELO: Human Fighter dual-classed to Mage
Angelo is a 49 year old fighter-turned-mage who served as Sarevok’s henchman in Baldur’s Gate. A minor character who sentenced you to hang and then later fought at Sarevok’s side in the Undercity, he has evaded death and now tracks you down to Athkatla with a proposition. During Shadows of Amn, Angelo’s past comes back to haunt him in the form of two quests, one of which may extend into Throne of Bhaal depending on how you play it. Incredible romance content for Female characters with Charisma of 12+

YVETTE
Have you ever seen a magical parchment that held something more than few words or numbers? Would you like to know better a girl, who hardly remember her own name or past? Yvette's completly new to the place she opened her eyes in. All those new faces, new streets and building... Can you help her to face her own past, images of the days that were to brutally erased? This NPC will join male PC and stay with him as long as love would allow....
Everything starts with a strange parchment you may buy on the Promenade. It's a portrait of young lady. That's how Yvette appears in the game. Help her to remember who she really is, let her experience adventures, let her stay by your side -

ARATH: Human druid
Arath is a complex, self-assured, humorous and somewhat hedonistic druid who, on the surface, cares for little else beyond himself and his love for nature. He loves the human form, both male and female, and isn't afraid to be direct about what he wants -- though he's not always successful in getting it, much to his chagrin. He has a passionate hate for aberrations, the undead and anything else that falls beyond the natural scheme of things, and he has some rather complex and occasionally contradictory beliefs.

And many more...
Sarah, Xulaye, Isra, Varshoon( the Illithid! He has his own kit of Psionic Forcer) Darian....

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No companion mod has ever been good.


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One of the least helpful feedback posts so far.. ALL of these characters are surviving the brain eater bug, BECAUSE they are special. That's the entire point of it. Their uniqueness is what makes them who they are. Avg Joe Schmo didnt survive the transition why? Because they were normal people and not 'snowflakes' and it is for ME what makes them "Interesting".

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The only problem I have with these characters is that there is a history in D&D games of making characters with interesting unique backstories that next to impossible to create in the table-top game without homebrewing or kludging stuff. I like all the stories they've come up with here, but they have stories that aren't easy to model in the TTRPG. To be fair though, a lot of the novel characters are the same.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Don't get me wrong, but there is a difference between a show being made to be goofy and it taking itself 100% seriously and still being goofy and it takes two completely different levels of incompetence.

Maybe the problem here isn't Xena, but your interpretation of it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDb6coiFUWk

Come on!

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Character backgrounds have varied from game to game. In BG/2 you start with very minimal information about your past, learn more as you go along, and determine who you will become. But you don't CHOOSE elements of your background.

In the Witcher series, again due to memory issues, you only know part of your background to start, learn more as you progress, and again decide over time what kind of person you will become.

Torment started you off as a blank slate, and again you learned your history as you progressed.

On the other hand, newer games such as PoE1 and Tyranny allowed you to select some aspects of your history and let you more fully develop as you go along.

I think BG3 could offer some "general" background options (family alive? dead?, religious choice?, goals - money, power, romance-) and perhaps offer you some opportunities to advance and develop these traits through additional conversation or quest options, but that admittedly would take quite a bit of work to do in any meaningful way, and would STILL have to be limited to a handful of background options - more than that and you start hitting the level of oprions in a game like Disco Elysium, and that would require building an entire sub-game within the game.

And it would only work in custom characters you 'roll up'. Origin characters should be limited to the prescribed background and motivations they were specifically built for. You should NOT expect to be able to play Asterion as a misunderstood, bard wanna be, or Shadow as a spy for Selune, attempting to learn what Shar us up to, just because you feel like it, with different backgrounds selected at start up.





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