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Originally Posted by Nyelin
For me it's because the back stories are way over the top. I've played tons of RPGs in the last 30+ years, disliked some of my companions, but liked most of them. I find it fun to interact with the current bunch, but it's hard to actually like them. They are are either super outgoing and friendly (Gale, Wyll), or in the arrogant to obnoxious realm (Shadowheart, Astarion, Lae'zel). Because of the game mechanics (when we meet, we are level one or two), Wyll can't back up his bravado (Blade of the Frontier, Living Legend, yeah right), and Gale's backstory just isn't believable.
You can't have Astarion *not* having trying to drink your blood, and to me that's an immediate disqualification. Not to mention that when you meet him, he immediately puts a knife to your throat. Lae'zel treats you as if you are something she scraped off her boots. I can actually relate to Shadowheart, because a lot of what she is putting up seems to be a front.
I just can't see why the main character, e.g. me, would be running with this bunch. The way they are introduced, I wouldn't invite them to join me, with the possible exception of Shadowheart, and her only if I tried to rescue her beforehand on the ship.

In 4 characters, I've only had him put a knife to my throat once.

I can make my determination on who to take right out of the gate. If I'm not on a "tanky" character, I can keep Lae'zel. If I'm needing the services of a healer more often than I'd like to admit, I can keep Shadowheart. If I'm not a rogue, and think I'll need one, Astarion is on call. I'm not meant to get all the story beats in one playthrough, so if I decide one of them must die early on, I can do that too.

What I really hope will happen is that this will be one of those games where I spend 1000s of hours in it. Not a "one and done" game, or one I can't even bring myself to finish. With that in mind, I'm perfectly fine with not being a "people pleaser", making choices just to jack up approval on the comps. If they don't like me, so be it. If they don't like my choices, so be it. I'm not going to be fussed about it, and I'm not going to alter my plan for a character just to garner some approval. They are their own person, and that's great. I don't like everyone I meet out here in the real world, and I don't expect I'll like everyone I meet in a game either. I'm not going to harbor any resentment towards them because they don't make me feel like a special snowflake either. Truth be told, I'd rather not be a special snowflake, for a change.

I've played the trope so many times, it'd be refreshing to just be "one of the boys". That's not going to be the case here, we're going to be a special snowflake, even if I'm not sure exactly why, just yet, but the story focus is going to fall squarely on us, again. I wouldn't have a problem with being part of the solution, instead of being the solution. I wouldn't mind being the "leader" of this group simply because I was the only one willing to take up the mantle. At the end of the day though, this team is made out of the need to work towards a common goal, not becoming a mind flayer, than any sense of friendship. If it's the only way to save my ass, I can work with people I may not care for to do it. Of course the Origin characters have fleshed out back stories, they're designed by Larian, and they can be the main character, at some point. Custom characters are supposed to be blank slates, at least if my experience with 30 years of RPGs is anything to judge off of. It's amazing to read on these forums the implication that Larian should have completely written the backstory for the main character, if it's custom.

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After over 130 hours I actually like most of them. Astarion just rubs me the wrong way with his snooty voice and speaking manner, so I rarely use him. He sulks like a child.

Shadowheart is okay, I got the approval for the drinking wine, etc. after the party on one playthough. I think the bit about her past is going to come back up, like maybe - just maybe - she did not really believe what she thinks she does.

Lae'Zel is pretty straight forward and I can see where she is coming from. Of all the companions SHE understands and is most repulsed by what a tadpole means. Her people were changed from their original stock to be slaves for the Illithid. They have no concept of a historic home. Even should they find the plan/world they came from they would not recognize it anymore or its people. They hate the Illithid with every fiber of their being and to turn into one would be the ultimate horror. So she is focused on getting the damned thing out. Her people tell her there is ONE way to do so, you have to go to get 'Purified'. (IMO that is going to mean killed). So, if you think about her in that light, yeah I can totally see how she is not happy if you take time to help other people as to her, each second you waste is her getting closer to being a MindFlayer abomination.

Gayle is an okay guy, his addiction to magic items can be somewhat irritating (NO Gayle, you are NOT getting my sword!) but I like him.

Wyll is actually kind of fun to have around (he hits on Lae'Zel and when that fails, starts in on Shadowheart). I actually could see playing through once as him.

as far as romance favor goes - Lae'Zel does not like ANYTHING to do with Shadowheart, so the more you try and make happy with Shadowheart the more Lae'Zel will dislike you. (And I am pretty sure it works both ways). Lae'Zel will wear you out after the party if you have her approval. Shadowheart is a slower burn and wants to talk / drink some wine with a kiss in the morining. Gayle and Astarion are apparently horndogs and want you no matter what. Every playthrough they hit on me at the party. Wyll seems more (so far for me anyway) subdued.

But Shadowheart, Gayle and Astarion Approve you petting the doggy, so there is that. Piss one of them off and go to camp and pet the doggy some.

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Originally Posted by Eluvian
I think it's on purpose. I believe what Larian is trying to say by giving all the companions unique, out of the ordinary backstories is that they were purposefully selected by the "Absolute" and that the abductions weren't random. The biggest question is, can they make the MC's backstory just as unique? I certainly don't want no God Chosen crap from DOS2. That's what's really missing right now, is the backstory of the MC. Without a backstory, the companions "outshine" your MC and I think that's what a lot of people don't like. That's what I believe anyway.


That's a good point about how the MC and the companions seem to be Chosen Ones by the Absolute for some nefarious purpose. Among other things, it would explain why we're not transforming on the usual schedule, and why other NPCs infected with the tadpole lose it when they die. It makes for different adventuring party dynamics than a typical CRPG. The companions are a bit more colorful and not just subservient to the player main character.

Most of the complaints I've seen are either based around not having a preferred romance option, or having so few companions that we can't put together an optimized party based on preferred "alignment." That's just a trade-off for having fully animated cut scenes and voice acting, which is resource-intensive for a small game studio. We're not going to have dozens of choices here.

Personally, I'm not stuck on the idea of having an all-Good aligned party, and romance isn't important to me because it's seldom done well in this kind of game anyway. I could go through the rest of the game with my current party of Lae'zel, Shadowheart, and Gale with my MC Rogue without complaint. And we haven't even seen the remaining 4 companions yet.

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Originally Posted by vyvexthorne
For me personally it's simply because they aren't companions. They are main characters (origin characters) that will eventually all be playable as the main protagonist. None of these characters are bit players.. they are all main protagonists jostling for position. I don't feel like this is my characters story or that my character is in any way cool or special because all the "companions" are cool and special. It makes me feel like I'm playing with someone elses perfect party and frankly I'm selfish and want to play with my perfect party.
a custom pc feels more like a passenger then the one driving the plot - ive played through ea a couple times and i always leave it with the feeling that if my pc never survived the ship crash the whole narrative/story would still have carried on without me, a custom pc just isnt unique - like, everyone has tadpoles lol

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Originally Posted by Sharet
I see a ton of people complaining about the current companions, not because of their class/stats, but because they are mean
sad

No. That is the point that people who defend them feel the need to hang on to because everything else has to do with comparative quality to older games as well as written work in which case they don't even scratch the surface of professional writing or characters. People who do not like the companions, such as myself, do not like them because they are poorly written. For a large part this can be attributed to the schizophrenic nature of origin characters as having to be main characters even when they are just sidekicks. Do you know a person in real life that is so self centered and yet people love and adore them and never criticize them? Do you know someone that tries to steal the spotlight and make everything about themselves and constantly complain in real life that is fun to be around?

Originally Posted by Sharet
I mean, of course they are mean! (see what I did there?) They are completely different personalities tied together against their will, strangers to one another and forced to stay together for a "common goal". Oh, and that goal is to get rid of a BRAIN PARASITE WHO IS GOING TO EAT THEM IN A MATTER OF SECONDS for what they know. In their pants I will be a lot meaner to whoever would dear to breath too close to me, in fact, they are not even close to how mean and on the edge they should realistically be.

So you treat people at your job like dirt then? Don't be so infantile. Not only are there countless examples of how people can come together under extreme duress despite being extremely different and not behave like spoiled children. Victims of trauma also do not manifest the same response and pushing people away or taking your problems out on other people is universally considered to be in poor taste but more importantly is scientifically known to be a self destructive desire that has nothing to do with your trauma or experiences and has a lot more to do with a sense of self loathing and self destructiveness. I'm sure you have heard of Sherlock Holmes and his opioid habit? Clinical Psychiatrists and neuroscientists often describe the addiction to these extreme attitude as "seeking oblivion". I can give you examples of these kind of characters done in a multitude of different ways that are far superior including examples from older games but I've done it so many times already in the brief time that I've been on this board that I've already burned out and if you are really that interested for my take feel free to PM me.

Originally Posted by Sharet
We are not playing a story where we should calmly cooperate and go to the adventure with a smile on our faces, we are playing a race against time, completely blind to whatever is happening to us. How can anyone expect to have a friendly and relaxed relationship in such conditions?

You've never seen pictures of WWI soldiers in the trenches playing with cats or smiling or playing cards? Breaking down and being an insufferable detractor of everyone around you is not healthy and it is not something that inspires sympathy. We have to like these characters and in fact Larian is making it almost obligatory to play with them as companions. Why would they choose to write them in such a way that makes them insufferable. Completely ignoring how poorly written and one dimensional they are these characters could be written to be much more sympathetic or at least motivate you to care about them without making them mary sues that you are forced upon you. The same messages and themes could be delivered while only changing their attitude to make a far superior experience.

With all of that out of the way consider if you where in a life threatening situation of a similar nature. Let's say you suspect you have carbon monoxide poisoning. This WILL kill you slowly. Would you run away from people and every time someone tried to help you shout at them, demean them and so on or would you try to be polite and explain the situation and seek their help? Would you then try to sleep with them out of nowhere?

Originally Posted by Sharet
I think the characters are written exquisitely, even when they are edgy and/or disrespectful to one another. Not to mention that after no more than 15 hours, Gale and Wyll told me I'm a friend and that they respect and are grateful to me, Astarion started to be flirty, I kissed Shadowheart and even Lae'zel who sees my race as little more than monkey said she respect me as a warrior.[quote]
Written exquisitely compared to what? Even ignoring everything else I've said so far please give an example to compare them to as a basis seeing as your analysis of them and the writing is only skin deep.

[quote=Sharet]In this forum I have found lots of valid criticism to the game but sometimes it seems to me people just want to complain. Everyone is mean to me, female NPCs are not nice enough, male NPS are not rough enough, combat is too difficult because the AI does the most logical thing and target the lowest AC character as a priority.
C'mon guys, we are better than this.

I can understand someone not liking the personality of a character, fair enough, but not liking it without considering the context is a weak argumentation.


EDIT: I to have found Shadowheart talking to me like shit after our kiss, but remember that in this early access a lot of conversations are screwed up both in timing and context, they are going to fix it.

Of course we want to complain. Larian decided they wanted to fill the shoes of BG with a sequel no one asked for that has no continuity and nothing to do with the previous games in the series. You better believe they've got to knock this one out of the park of they are going to make a lot of people extremely angry and alienated with them.


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One of the major issues I have with the characters is the backstory does not befit level 1 characters. Lae'zel is okay I suppose, given we are meant to believe she's very green. And Shadowheart's amnesia may cover her seeming lack of skill. But Asterion has led a long life, and Gale and Wyll have had their own adventures prior to meeting the PC. It simply is not believable they will be Level 1 characters when they meet the player.

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If I meet them in Baldur's Gate 1 will kill them faster than kobold in Nashkel mine.

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Originally Posted by Rouoko
If I meet them in Baldur's Gate 1 will kill them faster than kobold in Nashkel mine.



Honestly they remind me a lot in some ways of the annoying pushy NPCS added by Beamdog in BGEE.

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Argonaut, you are my hero of these forums really, I agree with about 99% of stuff you have written in most of the topics you have participated in.

Now, to add to this conversation, I think people dislike the companions cause more often than not they steal all the spotlight. I wish that Larian would drop the entire idea of origin stories, as I have said it many times before, or keep them confined to DOS games only, they have absolutely no reason hamfisting them into BG series. Period.

Hell, I don't really hate a single one of them. I understand that they are each different people caught in difficult circumstances forcing them to work together. But they do need to work on their sympathetic skills a bit more. The only one who could possibly get away being the major pain in the butt is Lae'zel, her being a githyanki and all that. She sees all the races of Faerun as inferior, and it shows. At least she's honest about that. Also, the circumstances you meet each of the companions under is pretty bit weird, Astarion being indeed a shining example among all of them. There should indeed be a way for the others you have recruited to at least REACT to him pulling a knife on us. They don't have to help, but at least react, say something. It's not that much to ask for, is it?

And speaking of our PC, Larian could implement such a simple fix for our lack of any visible backstory, well we do have backgrounds - acolyte, noble and so on. But they never come up in dialogue. I played as a seldarine drow acolyte cleric of Eilistraee on my first run, on my 2nd I went with high elven wizard noble. Now the racial and class dialogues come up often, but the 'background' never does. Never. My newest character is a drow warlock of the old ones, with the entertainer background, and I can already predict that the entertainer background will never ever come up in dialogue. I mean, is it really so hard to implement the backgrounds as some sort of backstories for our PCs? Like hell, Larian could give us 2 options even as to what you did via dialogue like it was done in POE, and people would not complain as much about our PCs being a full empty blank slate. Hell, I wouldn't complain anymore. Our PCs backstory doesn't have to as grand as the origin characters' one, but at least make it matter a little bit more.

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Originally Posted by Rouoko
If I meet them in Baldur's Gate 1 will kill them faster than kobold in Nashkel mine.

Like you killed xan and monty right?


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Did anyone else use that Modded female companion in BG2? She was some sort of sword-warrior-barbarian and was found in the first part of the game - within the dungeon complex.

The Mod designers whacked her DEX up to 19 (in 2e this was a Major score), gave her two unique swords that she would not let go of, even when the only way to hit anything was using a missile weapon, and had Mary Sue dialogue inserted into just about every portion of the game. I played her in the party a couple of times before becoming heartily sick of her attention-grabbing dialogue.

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Thrandarian
And ultimately some bootlicking fan boy is going to chime in on why I shouldn't play a game the way I enjoy playing it. =/

Because only one of us can be right and it is obviously me.

I will create a huge post full of words but little content that you are unlikely actually read, I will confuse the issue and sidetrack so much that you forget what the argument was originally about.

I will use inflammatory and insulting words, but squeal 'foul' if I cam take one of your points out of context and say that it is an attack on me.

And I'll link to a string of irrelevant websites to prove, PROVE mind you, that I am right!

Yes, if we can fill threads with huge posts by us and discourage anyone else from participating then we win early access. It's definitely not a bad faith attempt to try to highjack this specific development style and anyone who is regularly combative is not a bad actor.

edit: As for the topic at hand. I really think it's just ruby tinted glasses. People remember BG1 and BG2 really fondly and likely played them when they were younger and more forgiving of things. Now they've built up amazing unmeetable standards for what they want in the game and the characters have fallen short. Now they're going to fight tooth and nail because somehow they really believe they're going to trigger Larian to do emergency rewrites or something.

This idea that Shadowheart is some terrible character and Morrigan is some amazing piece of writing is some kind of really personal opinion. It's valid to the person who feels this way, but it's clearly steeped in bias. Same thing for Astarion being dumb and Edwin being some amazing layered character.

Last edited by Worm; 20/10/20 03:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nicottia
Argonaut, you are my hero of these forums really, I agree with about 99% of stuff you have written in most of the topics you have participated in.

Now, to add to this conversation, I think people dislike the companions cause more often than not they steal all the spotlight. I wish that Larian would drop the entire idea of origin stories, as I have said it many times before, or keep them confined to DOS games only, they have absolutely no reason hamfisting them into BG series. Period.

Hell, I don't really hate a single one of them. I understand that they are each different people caught in difficult circumstances forcing them to work together. But they do need to work on their sympathetic skills a bit more. The only one who could possibly get away being the major pain in the butt is Lae'zel, her being a githyanki and all that. She sees all the races of Faerun as inferior, and it shows. At least she's honest about that. Also, the circumstances you meet each of the companions under is pretty bit weird, Astarion being indeed a shining example among all of them. There should indeed be a way for the others you have recruited to at least REACT to him pulling a knife on us. They don't have to help, but at least react, say something. It's not that much to ask for, is it?

And speaking of our PC, Larian could implement such a simple fix for our lack of any visible backstory, well we do have backgrounds - acolyte, noble and so on. But they never come up in dialogue. I played as a seldarine drow acolyte cleric of Eilistraee on my first run, on my 2nd I went with high elven wizard noble. Now the racial and class dialogues come up often, but the 'background' never does. Never. My newest character is a drow warlock of the old ones, with the entertainer background, and I can already predict that the entertainer background will never ever come up in dialogue. I mean, is it really so hard to implement the backgrounds as some sort of backstories for our PCs? Like hell, Larian could give us 2 options even as to what you did via dialogue like it was done in POE, and people would not complain as much about our PCs being a full empty blank slate. Hell, I wouldn't complain anymore. Our PCs backstory doesn't have to as grand as the origin characters' one, but at least make it matter a little bit more.

Are we playing the same game? Both of my Drow have had Drow specific dialog. Maybe your version is earlier than mine, and my choices were added later? One of the lines was akin to "If you see red eyes, run", when talking to one of the Tiefling children in the Grove.

Again, however, I don't want Larian writing a backstory for my custom characters, and I'm still really amazed at how many people here seem to not only want it, but need it?

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No, no. I go around them and get back after I meet Khalim and Jeheira. And Blow them up with my fireball! Because I'm child of Bhaal!

Ialso I often play d&d as a kobold bard or paladin.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Are we playing the same game? Both of my Drow have had Drow specific dialog. Maybe your version is earlier than mine, and my choices were added later? One of the lines was akin to "If you see red eyes, run", when talking to one of the Tiefling children in the Grove.

Again, however, I don't want Larian writing a backstory for my custom characters, and I'm still really amazed at how many people here seem to not only want it, but need it?

Uh just to slide in here before this turns into some massive back and forth. I believe Nicottia wants dialog that's like [SAILOR] or [CROOK] based on character background. This of course might not implemented yet or not at all. I'd honestly prefer to choose a God than get [URCHIN] specific dialogs.

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Originally Posted by Abits
I'm sure
Originally Posted by Rouoko
If I meet them in Baldur's Gate 1 will kill them faster than kobold in Nashkel mine.

Like you killed xan and monty right?

[Linked Image]
Yes.

Last edited by Argonaut; 20/10/20 03:39 PM.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Are we playing the same game? Both of my Drow have had Drow specific dialog. Maybe your version is earlier than mine, and my choices were added later? One of the lines was akin to "If you see red eyes, run", when talking to one of the Tiefling children in the Grove.

Again, however, I don't want Larian writing a backstory for my custom characters, and I'm still really amazed at how many people here seem to not only want it, but need it?


Did you even read what I wrote or just skimmed through it looking for keywords?

Ugh, I did write that the race and class do come up in dialogues. But unless you missed it, you can choose your background:

[Linked Image]

This is my main source of complaint as it never comes up in dialogue.

So it's there but unused. Totally pointless.

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I agree the idea of origin characters is lame and part of the Larian's game philosophy of "let's just do cool stuff who cares how it affects the narrative" but based on the amount of downvotes I get every time I mention it on Reddit it's not gonna go away.

That said, I don't sure how much they really "steal the spotlight" in practice, even if it's true in theory. I'll be happy to hear some examples if any of you guys have any.

I feel like the "clean slate" status of my character actually works to my character's advantage. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but the fact I'm surrounded by crazies, each one of them with more issues than the other, makes my vault dweller seem like the only adult around. It reminds me of (and I can't believe I'm saying it) Persona 4, a game that wrote the book about generic MC.

Last edited by Abits; 20/10/20 03:53 PM.

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Originally Posted by Worm
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Are we playing the same game? Both of my Drow have had Drow specific dialog. Maybe your version is earlier than mine, and my choices were added later? One of the lines was akin to "If you see red eyes, run", when talking to one of the Tiefling children in the Grove.

Again, however, I don't want Larian writing a backstory for my custom characters, and I'm still really amazed at how many people here seem to not only want it, but need it?

Uh just to slide in here before this turns into some massive back and forth. I believe Nicottia wants dialog that's like [SAILOR] or [CROOK] based on character background. This of course might not implemented yet or not at all. I'd honestly prefer to choose a God than get [URCHIN] specific dialogs.

I believe you are correct. Re-reading the post showed me something I missed.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Abits
I'm sure
Originally Posted by Rouoko
If I meet them in Baldur's Gate 1 will kill them faster than kobold in Nashkel mine.

Like you killed xan and monty right?

[Linked Image]
Yes.

My man cool


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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