Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jun 2019
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Jun 2019
Sawyer was a very caster hater, he putted only lackluster spells on IWD(EE fixes it), and nerfed most cool spells to Oblivion on his D&D games. On Pillars, casters are even more nerfed to the point that i almost had no fun playing it as one. But Larian seems to have casters even more with this game. Lets see why >

  • Low level cap preventing the usage of all cool spells[1]
  • Lack(only one) of melee companions
  • Enemies has hp bloat and AC nerf
  • Magical items are far more common but magical scrolls aren't
  • A lot of cool spells seems to be restricted to enemies[2]
  • Ultra limitation on short rests.[3]


1 -> The low level cap(4 on EA), in a campaign which starts with a spelljammer mindflayer ship fighting an draconic army makes no sense. An low level campaign starting on candlekeep makes perfectly sense. A low level campaign starting with the PC escaping a mindflayer spelljammer ship makes zero sense.

Larian also said that "high level spells doesn't work on video games". Which isn't truth. BG2 had Stop Time, Chain contingency summon planetar, wail of the banshee and a lot of powerful spells. Sure, some of then got adaptations like Wish but this spells can work in video games and worked in many video games.

2 -> Only enemies seems to be able to summon worgs. Why no PC can cast Summon Monster???

3 -> On the begining, Larian talked about a short rest after each battle which would make WLK ludicrous OP. Now is a single short rest per long rest which is too limited. Why not something like 3 short rests per long rest? It would put the spell usage of WLK more in line with other arcane casters.

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
I heard GOG still has BG1 and 2. There you gooo.

But seriously:

Quote
1 -> The low level cap(4 on EA), in a campaign which starts with a spelljammer mindflayer ship fighting an draconic army makes no sense.


You deliver zero arguments for this. Why would it not make sense? Because every campaign needs to be a farmboy killing boars for 5 sessions before they can have fun?

Quote
2 -> Only enemies seems to be able to summon worgs. Why no PC can cast Summon Monster???


You realize this is still EA, yes? You do know the levelcap is 4, as you stated above. Do you know that Conjure Animals is a 3rd lvl spell? Now think about why its not there for PCs yet.

Quote
3 -> On the begining, Larian talked about a short rest after each battle which would make WLK ludicrous OP. Now is a single short rest per long rest which is too limited. Why not something like 3 short rests per long rest? It would put the spell usage of WLK more in line with other arcane casters.


This being EA is probably testing the limits for short rests right now. My best guess is that in a later build we will progressively get more SRs

Joined: Jun 2019
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Jun 2019
Originally Posted by KingTiki

You deliver zero arguments for this. Why would it not make sense? Because every campaign needs to be a farmboy killing boars for 5 sessions before they can have fun?



If you wanna a low level campaign, yes. But escaping a mindflayer spellhammer ship should't be a lv 1 adventure.

Originally Posted by KingTiki

Do you know that Conjure Animals is a 3rd lvl spell? Now think about why its not there for PCs yet.


I din't talked about conjure animals, but summon monster

https://www.5esrd.com/spellcasting/3pp-spells/spells-schwalb-entertainment-llc/summon-monster/

Joined: Oct 2020
F
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
F
Joined: Oct 2020
PnP rules allow one long rests and two short rests every 24 hours (you can rest more but gain no further benefit). Class balance is based on ratio of two short rests for every long rest. I.e. it shouldn't be 1, it shouldn't be 3, it should be 2 short rests per long rest.

Joined: Jun 2019
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Jun 2019
Originally Posted by FrostyFardragon
PnP rules allow one long rests and two short rests every 24 hours (you can rest more but gain no further benefit). Class balance is based on ratio of two short rests for every long rest. I.e. it shouldn't be 1, it shouldn't be 3, it should be 2 short rests per long rest.


2 short rests means that WLK will be able to cast 6 spells per long rest which would put their spell usage on par with wizard. You are right.

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
Sawyer hates casters? Not my impression from Pillars of Eternity 1 & 2 or Tyranny. Never played old Icewind Dale though, only EE. I found that casters can trivialize a lot of fights clearly meant to be challenging in those games, but admittedly work better as buffs and crowd control than pure damage. Which i find to be true for BG 1&2 too. PoE and Tyranny (and D&D 5e) just seems to make non-casters more relevant than they used to be.

1. The story makes little sense starting at lvl 1, I agree. EA being limited to the earlier parts of the progression makes sense though, being EA.

2. It's a 3rd lvl Druid or Ranger spell, so outside our current lvl range. A Druid could do it at lvl 5, when they get implemented.

3. I agree, there should be a few more short rests than 1 per long rest. 2 or 3 total would probably be fine.


Don't you just hate it when people with dumb opinions have nice avatars?
Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor


Originally Posted by KingTiki

Do you know that Conjure Animals is a 3rd lvl spell? Now think about why its not there for PCs yet.


I din't talked about conjure animals, but summon monster

https://www.5esrd.com/spellcasting/3pp-spells/spells-schwalb-entertainment-llc/summon-monster/


This is not an official 5e spell. That's why it is listed under "3rd Party Publisher Spells".

In essence: its homebrew.

Joined: Oct 2020
A
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
A
Joined: Oct 2020
The opening dungeon to BG3 is far far more DnD than what the opening of BG1 was. "Oh no I got to see lots of evil things"

You don't actually fight the Mind Flayers, you fight some weakened Intellect Devours, Imps and Thralls. The devils fight the mind flayers.
The Intellect Devours are somewhat nerfed, they aren't as dangerous as in MM, but homebrew monsters are a thing, especially when you want a setting, and I don't think Body Thief makes sense to use on someone with a tadpole.

I really don't get this "it doesn't make sense" argument. It's a cool "setting the scene" for the plot going forward. And I have no idea why it "hates casters" to be on a "spelljammer ship" since it doesn't seem to affect the gameplay at all.

I think it's a perfectly viable first level dungeon, when it's part of a 1-10 campaign where Mind Flayers are the big threat (it seems)




That spell you linked isn't an official spell, so why the heck do you expect Larian to include it? They are using mostly Players Handbook Rules.
Conjuring things is a 3rd level or higher spell in official rules.

Joined: May 2014
D
member
Offline
member
D
Joined: May 2014
Seriously but most powerful class in PoE is priest, a caster :O

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by KingTiki
I heard GOG still has BG1 and 2. There you gooo.

But seriously:

Quote
1 -> The low level cap(4 on EA), in a campaign which starts with a spelljammer mindflayer ship fighting an draconic army makes no sense.


You deliver zero arguments for this. Why would it not make sense? Because every campaign needs to be a farmboy killing boars for 5 sessions before they can have fun?

Quote
2 -> Only enemies seems to be able to summon worgs. Why no PC can cast Summon Monster???


You realize this is still EA, yes? You do know the levelcap is 4, as you stated above. Do you know that Conjure Animals is a 3rd lvl spell? Now think about why its not there for PCs yet.

Quote
3 -> On the begining, Larian talked about a short rest after each battle which would make WLK ludicrous OP. Now is a single short rest per long rest which is too limited. Why not something like 3 short rests per long rest? It would put the spell usage of WLK more in line with other arcane casters.


This being EA is probably testing the limits for short rests right now. My best guess is that in a later build we will progressively get more SRs

To be fair, fighting your way through a battle between mind flayers and devils in the Hells doesn't seem to be something a lvl 1 would survive. If we had a tutorial putting us at lvl 3 before getting snatched up it would feel a lot more authentic. Your companions would make more sense too, as they seem too accomplished for lvl1. They are a stretch for lvl 3 too, but it's at least a bit more believable when everyone has their archetype.

It seems suspiciously convenient that you only encounter weak little imps to fight when the devils are responding to a Nautiloid and an oncursion of Red Dragons to their realm. The Nautilloid should be swarming with powerful devils.

Edit: On phone, so grammar be hard.

I don't think it is a big problem that we're lvl 1, but i do agree that it seems a tad too low for us to realistically survive a trip likethis to the Hells. Again, suspiciously convenient enemies that undermines the threat Hell represents, to an extent.

Last edited by TomReneth; 20/10/20 11:11 AM.

Don't you just hate it when people with dumb opinions have nice avatars?
Joined: Oct 2020
D
member
Offline
member
D
Joined: Oct 2020
There actually is at least one unique item that can summon in EA already. A little out of your way to get but it's there. Not the same, I know, but I thought I'd mention

Joined: Jun 2019
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Jun 2019
Originally Posted by denhonator
There actually is at least one unique item that can summon in EA already. A little out of your way to get but it's there. Not the same, I know, but I thought I'd mention


Which is???

Originally Posted by dunehunter
Seriously but most powerful class in PoE is priest, a caster :O


Which is trash compared to NWN1 clerics...

Joined: May 2014
D
member
Offline
member
D
Joined: May 2014
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by denhonator
There actually is at least one unique item that can summon in EA already. A little out of your way to get but it's there. Not the same, I know, but I thought I'd mention


Which is???

Originally Posted by dunehunter
Seriously but most powerful class in PoE is priest, a caster :O


Which is trash compared to NWN1 clerics...


3r clerics is absolutely overpowered.

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by denhonator
There actually is at least one unique item that can summon in EA already. A little out of your way to get but it's there. Not the same, I know, but I thought I'd mention


Which is???

Originally Posted by dunehunter
Seriously but most powerful class in PoE is priest, a caster :O


Which is trash compared to NWN1 clerics...

NWN 1 Clerics, and 3er edition Clerics in general, are ludicrously powerful, being both a full caster, a specialist melee (3/4 BAB) and immediate access to heavy armor and shields with no spell failure. They also have both one of the best and most customizable spell lists with their Domains. In short, Clerics were nerfed to oblivion and beyond in both PoE and 5e without losing their shot at competing not only for strongest caster, but strongest class in their respective game.

They are fantastic tanks, good dps, the best supporters and overal super versatile due to their spell list's modular nature. Going from being the undodputably best class to just probably the best is a huge nerf. And one they had coming.

If NWN 1 Cleric is the standard you put for casters, not only do you want a system where non-casters aren't really viable alternatives, but most casters are pointless too because the Cleric does everything everyone does better.


Don't you just hate it when people with dumb opinions have nice avatars?
Joined: Jun 2019
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Jun 2019
Clerics on most games are very boring. On D&D, is one of the few games which they are representatives of a deity on the material plane and hence, has a lot of cool stuff. Sadly the balance cult is making then boring too...


Joined: Oct 2020
T
addict
Offline
addict
T
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by TomReneth
Sawyer hates casters? Not my impression from Pillars of Eternity 1 & 2 or Tyranny. Never played old Icewind Dale though, only EE. I found that casters can trivialize a lot of fights clearly meant to be challenging in those games, but admittedly work better as buffs and crowd control than pure damage. Which i find to be true for BG 1&2 too. PoE and Tyranny (and D&D 5e) just seems to make non-casters more relevant than they used to be.

1. The story makes little sense starting at lvl 1, I agree. EA being limited to the earlier parts of the progression makes sense though, being EA.

2. It's a 3rd lvl Druid or Ranger spell, so outside our current lvl range. A Druid could do it at lvl 5, when they get implemented.

3. I agree, there should be a few more short rests than 1 per long rest. 2 or 3 total would probably be fine.


Into the Abyss starts with you captured by drow and escaping a battle between drow and demons.

That said, I tend to find magic in the PnP game is also more efficient if you focus on buffs, debuffs, crowd control, and utility...with healing and damage being the least efficient usages. Thankfully this edition has at-will spells that are still useful even after the big magic has been used for the day.

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Clerics on most games are very boring. On D&D, is one of the few games which they are representatives of a deity on the material plane and hence, has a lot of cool stuff. Sadly the balance cult is making then boring too...


Why does a class need to be overpowered to be interesting? A lack of balance leads to classes being unviable, which is likely to suck for players who do not enjoy the flavor of the OP options.

If Clerics were kinda bad, but Bards (or any other class you're not as interested in) did everything everyone does better, would you still hold to this idea that the balance police are trying to make bards boring by calling for it to be in the same ballpark in terms of usefulness as everything else, within its niche?

Balanced classes (and races etc) is something a lot of people call for because we don't want the game to punish people simply for playing something they want rather than what is optimal. If wanting to make more combinations attractive and viable makes me boring, we're very different.


Don't you just hate it when people with dumb opinions have nice avatars?
Joined: Jun 2019
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Jun 2019
Originally Posted by TomReneth
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Clerics on most games are very boring. On D&D, is one of the few games which they are representatives of a deity on the material plane and hence, has a lot of cool stuff. Sadly the balance cult is making then boring too...


Why does a class need to be overpowered to be interesting? A lack of balance leads to classes being unviable, which is likely to suck for players who do not enjoy the flavor of the OP options.

If Clerics were kinda bad, but Bards (or any other class you're not as interested in) did everything everyone does better, would you still hold to this idea that the balance police are trying to make bards boring by calling for it to be in the same ballpark in terms of usefulness as everything else, within its niche?

Balanced classes (and races etc) is something a lot of people call for because we don't want the game to punish people simply for playing something they want rather than what is optimal. If wanting to make more combinations attractive and viable makes me boring, we're very different.


Not need to be OP but look to D&D 4e, by far the most balanced edition and the cost is that all classes are fighter reskins.

But balance is overrated. On VTMB, Nosferatu is by far the hardest clan to be played, an modern game dev would other removed the clan or made the deformity a less impacting thing which would kill the variety or the point of having the clan in the first place. As for races, some people enjoy doing suboptimal challenge runs. If I wanna make an half orc wizard, it should be my right.

That notion that everything needs to be the same is what is killing RPG's.

Not mentioning, that balance is very subjective, see how many people cry over shotguns on BF1/5, the literally less used type of weapon...

Joined: Oct 2020
Z
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Z
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Sawyer was a very caster hater, he putted only lackluster spells on IWD(EE fixes it), and nerfed most cool spells to Oblivion on his D&D games. On Pillars, casters are even more nerfed to the point that i almost had no fun playing it as one. But Larian seems to have casters even more with this game. Lets see why >

  • Low level cap preventing the usage of all cool spells[1]
  • Lack(only one) of melee companions
  • Enemies has hp bloat and AC nerf
  • Magical items are far more common but magical scrolls aren't
  • A lot of cool spells seems to be restricted to enemies[2]
  • Ultra limitation on short rests.[3]


1 -> The low level cap(4 on EA), in a campaign which starts with a spelljammer mindflayer ship fighting an draconic army makes no sense. An low level campaign starting on candlekeep makes perfectly sense. A low level campaign starting with the PC escaping a mindflayer spelljammer ship makes zero sense.

Larian also said that "high level spells doesn't work on video games". Which isn't truth. BG2 had Stop Time, Chain contingency summon planetar, wail of the banshee and a lot of powerful spells. Sure, some of then got adaptations like Wish but this spells can work in video games and worked in many video games.

2 -> Only enemies seems to be able to summon worgs. Why no PC can cast Summon Monster???

3 -> On the begining, Larian talked about a short rest after each battle which would make WLK ludicrous OP. Now is a single short rest per long rest which is too limited. Why not something like 3 short rests per long rest? It would put the spell usage of WLK more in line with other arcane casters.


Heh. Hahahah.

Oh, you're being serious. Let me laugh harder than.

AHAHAHAHAHAH

Alright, that's my Futurama reference/laughing at someone quota for that day. I'm out.

Joined: Jun 2019
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Jun 2019
Originally Posted by Zer0
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Sawyer was a very caster hater, he putted only lackluster spells on IWD(EE fixes it), and nerfed most cool spells to Oblivion on his D&D games. On Pillars, casters are even more nerfed to the point that i almost had no fun playing it as one. But Larian seems to have casters even more with this game. Lets see why >

  • Low level cap preventing the usage of all cool spells[1]
  • Lack(only one) of melee companions
  • Enemies has hp bloat and AC nerf
  • Magical items are far more common but magical scrolls aren't
  • A lot of cool spells seems to be restricted to enemies[2]
  • Ultra limitation on short rests.[3]


1 -> The low level cap(4 on EA), in a campaign which starts with a spelljammer mindflayer ship fighting an draconic army makes no sense. An low level campaign starting on candlekeep makes perfectly sense. A low level campaign starting with the PC escaping a mindflayer spelljammer ship makes zero sense.

Larian also said that "high level spells doesn't work on video games". Which isn't truth. BG2 had Stop Time, Chain contingency summon planetar, wail of the banshee and a lot of powerful spells. Sure, some of then got adaptations like Wish but this spells can work in video games and worked in many video games.

2 -> Only enemies seems to be able to summon worgs. Why no PC can cast Summon Monster???

3 -> On the begining, Larian talked about a short rest after each battle which would make WLK ludicrous OP. Now is a single short rest per long rest which is too limited. Why not something like 3 short rests per long rest? It would put the spell usage of WLK more in line with other arcane casters.


Heh. Hahahah.

Oh, you're being serious. Let me laugh harder than.

AHAHAHAHAHAH

Alright, that's my Futurama reference/laughing at someone quota for that day. I'm out.


Nice argument /sarcasm

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Nicou 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5