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#709341 20/10/20 08:46 PM
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Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.


Last edited by ExperThies; 20/10/20 08:47 PM.
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This seems more of a personal thing than a game thing. At most make a difficult option that cuts down on saves. But really, for some people this will ruin the feel of the game for themselves and for other people it won't.

I understand temptation to do such things even when you know it'll ruin your experience so I can see why some people would want to turn the option off for themselves. But at the same time, having to redo a long sequence from the beginning for some people can just add to feelings of frustration and ruin the game for them. So getting rid of it entirely is going to ruin things for some people and keeping it will annoy others...so best option is to make it an option.

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This has been discussed at length here, and it is possible that Difficulty Levels will implement some sort of restriction on the number of saves.

As for not being true to the D&D feel, that might be true if you have a particularly harsh GM, but in my experience most will be pretty lenient where a potential character death is concerned. A CRPG can't recreate the human touch, so you don't get a GM raising his eyebrows and asking if you are sure you want to pickpocket the Lich you are chatting with, or pointing out that trying to climb the cliff is almost certainly going to lead to your being smashed onto sharp rocks.

Saving frequently also allows for issues with software and interaction with a computer-generated world. Obviously you wanted to shoot the oil barrel in the middle of the goblins rather than the one next to the party, but your finger slipped or the game hiccupped and BOOM.

I would also point out that, in a PnP game, a character dying means creating a new character (usually at the same level as the old one) and picking up more-or-less where you left off (albeit at a suitable place for the character to be introduced). In a CRPG it means having to play through from the beginning again (or last save).

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I do have to ask - what do you care what others to with the game? People save scumming does not affect you at all, but limiting saves would affect others.


Personally I want as few save limitations as possilbe. I don't have endless time to play games and I like to be able to save and stop playing when real life interferes, not being forced to replay certain parts again just because I had to leave a game.


At the same time nothing prevents me from accepting results or forces me to abuse the save system. If I want the D&D feeling I can have it. No need to force this limitation on others.

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Simple answer - don't do it if you don't want to. It's one of those non issue things and having options is better.

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I agree. Let the option be; and if you personally do not want to make use of it then that is fine smile

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During early access it's very important to be able to freely save/load. For full release, I agree that save scumming would take away from the experience and hopefully they find a way to discourage it. I do also think that in a game where you can mess everything up real fast (accidentally attack someone in town for instance), it's important to have frequent saves and it's generally better to give players control over it than rely on an autosave system.

Personally I didn't feel a need to save scum as I knew there would always be alternatives when I chose or rolled poorly in dialog for example. I never felt like I was screwed, it just got me into a different scenario.

One interesting solution would be to have the game save your dialog choices and skill checks in a per character file that's separate from story progress and have it autosave after every choice and roll. So even if you go back to an older save, this "dialog save" would remember how a dialog went and force it to repeat.

And have this be optional of course, because I 100% understand people wanting to get a particular outcome or trying different options just to see all the content.

This reminds of Mount & Blade, which asks the player if it should be allowed to quit without saving. If not, you can make saves, sure, but to load a save you have to save & exit, overwriting the previous save. Of course you could alt f4, but it did encourage you to live with the consequences. That method does have the weakness of no save slots however.

Last edited by denhonator; 20/10/20 09:20 PM.
Sadurian #709400 20/10/20 09:23 PM
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I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.

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+1 we want a game mode were dice rolls matter

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Originally Posted by ExperThies
I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.

There's nothing stopping you from doing that, except you. Well, not the new character bit, but the "not saving every step". I don't save every step, and I think saving during combat shouldn't be a thing, so I don't save during combat, to the point where I'm not even sure you can, because I haven't tried. I do save before encounters though, more because I don't want to go back however long since my last save than due to any need to achieve the perfect outcome. I figure that that's what new characters are for.

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Originally Posted by ExperThies
I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.

And taking away the ability to save would make decisions matter? Other people having the ability to save in an RPG would have zero barring on this. You could, 1.) Not make use of the convenient feature 2.) Ask for changes in other aspects of the game to make decisions carry more weight. Ultimately me saving my game so that when it crashes or when it glitches out or even if I want to reroll something to explore different choices ("save-scumming") has zero impact on your purchase or gameplay.

To use a fallacy: I could easily suggest you shouldn't have the option of using revivify or reloading a save on death or when the game bugs out or even starting a new game, because then decisions won't actually matter. There's only one chance in life after all. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by ExperThies
I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.

There's nothing stopping you from doing that, except you. Well, not the new character bit, but the "not saving every step". I don't save every step, and I think saving during combat shouldn't be a thing, so I don't save during combat, to the point where I'm not even sure you can, because I haven't tried. I do save before encounters though, more because I don't want to go back however long since my last save than due to any need to achieve the perfect outcome. I figure that that's what new characters are for.


i don't see the problem with having a mode with more restrictions, the author of post clearly don't want this to be a thing in normal mode, ironman modes are quite common, there's a mode in DOS2 that deletes your save game if everyone dies

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Originally Posted by ExperThies
Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.



There is likely to be some sort of iron man mode in the final version. Other than that, no. Difficulty should not restrict saving. If you don't want to save, develop some willpower.

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Originally Posted by ExperThies
Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.



so... you just want to force on everybody playstyle you approve of, did i get that right?

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Yeah, like Sadurian when I DM'd I would fudge rolls when I thought it would better to let players win. Another time I was a player and our party got wiped out and the DM said. Okay the mists clear and you are outside the door -- what do you *this time*.

So F8 can actually happen in pen and paper. smile

brunotavm #709461 20/10/20 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by brunotavm
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by ExperThies
I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.

There's nothing stopping you from doing that, except you. Well, not the new character bit, but the "not saving every step". I don't save every step, and I think saving during combat shouldn't be a thing, so I don't save during combat, to the point where I'm not even sure you can, because I haven't tried. I do save before encounters though, more because I don't want to go back however long since my last save than due to any need to achieve the perfect outcome. I figure that that's what new characters are for.


i don't see the problem with having a mode with more restrictions, the author of post clearly don't want this to be a thing in normal mode, ironman modes are quite common, there's a mode in DOS2 that deletes your save game if everyone dies

As discussed later, since it does exist in other Larian games, it's likely to come in to play here as well. Will it be in the what amounts to an Alpha build we have now? Probably not, too many ways for that to go south during testing. But it's likely to be a thing once it goes live.

sethmage #709471 20/10/20 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sethmage
so... you just want to force on everybody playstyle you approve of, did i get that right?

I've seen the same argument come up with so many video games and suspect it's sometimes used as an excuse to not develop a very robust saving system that can end up in the territory of checkpoint saves.

IMHO in a game where chance features as prominently as skill, it's always going to be a controversial subject and removing it will alienate a lot of players, whether the chance thing or that making decisions a much higher risk for inexperienced or non-native-speaking players. At the most it should be an gameplay menu option but it certainly shouldn't be an imposition on everyone.

As Stabbey says, it's really a matter of willpower, though I have seen conspicuous examples where the same rationale has been given in obvious bad faith and it's more about policing other people's playing style.


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I prefer to save a lot and I've never been a fan of the dice rolls in RPGs, especially if there's just a succeed/fail type of either/or scenario at stake. This thread makes me think of something the novelty dicemaker in Disco Elysium says about the subject.... But luckily "save scumming" is a way to avoid the issue with the rolls.


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Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
I prefer to save a lot and I've never been a fan of the dice rolls in RPGs, especially if there's just a succeed/fail type of either/or scenario at stake. This thread makes me think of something the novelty dicemaker in Disco Elysium says about the subject.... But luckily "save scumming" is a way to avoid the issue with the rolls.


Being able to save anywhere is also a good hedge against, crashes, being called away for some reason, power outages, hitting the wrong key, A have recently heard a let's player note that he never does anything Ironman because it just opens up vulnerability to far too many technical issues.

Also, I find that a of CRPGs give the dice influence over things that I would tend to never give them influence over if I am running a game. This is largely because a computer can't do spot adjudication of circumstances the way a human GM can, so I understand it, but "make die rolls matter" is sort of undermined in this case for me by the thoughts "that shouldn't be a die roll".

Still, again, I'm not opposed to this being an option at all...let people play the way want to play. I just will absolutely oppose the idea of plentiful saves being removed entirely.

Last edited by Thrythlind; 20/10/20 10:29 PM.
sethmage #709511 20/10/20 10:32 PM
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While it does feel that way, the save feature should be kept the way it is to allow for people to save in combat. It should never be taken away! Why? I would love to save in the middle of a hour and a half 32+ unit combat, because shit happens. Games crash, things get reset, and sometimes we dont have an hour and a half to sit in a combat. It's nice to revisit.

Taking away something that could be essential for some, but cater to others preferences is potentially dangerous.

Use your discretion when save scumming.

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