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Originally Posted by Kendaric
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Concerning "Elemental effects have no business in a D&D game, jump to 25:56

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j1wd4Ay81A&ab_channel=OutsideXtra


Virtually no one claims that ground effects have "no business in D&D", most of us are quite aware that D&D has a lot of ground based spells like Spike Growth, Grease, Web, etc. as well as items such as Alchemist's Fire or oil/acid flasks. What D&D DOESN'T have are cantrips that deal damage AND create a surface effect in addition or even on a miss. Of course throwing an oil flask with your rogue and having your mage set it ablaze with Burning Hands or even a Firebolt should remain, no one is arguing that.
But a Firebolt that creates a fire ground effect by itself is a bit much, not to mention the general overuse of such effects.


Exactly. On lower levels it's one of the most popular tactics: using Create Bonefire and throwing an Oil Flask. So there is a cantrip that creates a fire surface in 5e (Bonfire, but you know - it's fire). But it requires CONCENTRAION, which is BIG factor for AOE surface effects, because they are powerful so caster can only keep one at the time because concentration. So why add surface effects to spells that should not have them? It destroys balance of spells.

For example there is no point in adding freeze effect to something like Cone of Cold. Cone of Cold it's meant to be damage spell, it's balanced around that. Adding CC to it on top of that makes it OP. If you want to CC group of enemies, go with Wall of Ice or Mealstorm etc.

You want electric AOE effect that lasts? You have Storm Sphere for it.

DnD doesn't need DOS 2 elemental sufraces. It has tons of spell that can do it and are balanced around it.

Also DnD is not balanced around comboing elemental effect of spells. For example Otiuke Freezing Sphere won't freeze wet target in DnD. It just deal cold damage.

I don't want to play DOS again. I want to play DnD.

Last edited by Benny89; 21/10/20 06:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kendaric
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Concerning "Elemental effects have no business in a D&D game, jump to 25:56

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j1wd4Ay81A&ab_channel=OutsideXtra


Virtually no one claims that ground effects have "no business in D&D", most of us are quite aware that D&D has a lot of ground based spells like Spike Growth, Grease, Web, etc. as well as items such as Alchemist's Fire or oil/acid flasks. What D&D DOESN'T have are cantrips that deal damage AND create a surface effect in addition or even on a miss. Of course throwing an oil flask with your rogue and having your mage set it ablaze with Burning Hands or even a Firebolt should remain, no one is arguing that.
But a Firebolt that creates a fire ground effect by itself is a bit much, not to mention the general overuse of such effects.


Don't forget talking about dipping^^

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Don't get me started on dipping.... I try my best to ignore that abomination of a mechanic even exists.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Kendaric
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Concerning "Elemental effects have no business in a D&D game, jump to 25:56

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j1wd4Ay81A&ab_channel=OutsideXtra


Virtually no one claims that ground effects have "no business in D&D", most of us are quite aware that D&D has a lot of ground based spells like Spike Growth, Grease, Web, etc. as well as items such as Alchemist's Fire or oil/acid flasks. What D&D DOESN'T have are cantrips that deal damage AND create a surface effect in addition or even on a miss. Of course throwing an oil flask with your rogue and having your mage set it ablaze with Burning Hands or even a Firebolt should remain, no one is arguing that.
But a Firebolt that creates a fire ground effect by itself is a bit much, not to mention the general overuse of such effects.


Don't forget talking about dipping^^

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Argh! Don't even start with that bull cr... sorry, but, even with all the abstraction, magic and monsters, D&D rules still TRY to stay logical and grounded in reality, and lighting 4ft of steel ablaze with candle is just... yea, it's wacky Divinity fun fun logic, and has no place in any game which takes itself even a little bit seriously.

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id even go a step further and say that the abundance of throwables that also leave surface effects also contributes to the disconnect from dnd, but other than scaling the number/triggering synergies back idk what would be a good fix - id say that unless your players/dm highlights them in the campaign that 'bombs' are used fairly sparingly overall.

now i dont think that these throwables should be removed from the game, as i love playing as a rogue that specializes in tinkering with alchemical bombs, but i just think larian's throwable tuning is set too high, even beyond those that leave surface effects.

somewhat related, and idk if you can do this in ea, but i think being able to craft fire/acid/etc throwables would be a neat feature (i hope the crafting we get in ea is just the start)

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Originally Posted by Kendaric
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Concerning "Elemental effects have no business in a D&D game, jump to 25:56

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j1wd4Ay81A&ab_channel=OutsideXtra


Virtually no one claims that ground effects have "no business in D&D", most of us are quite aware that D&D has a lot of ground based spells like Spike Growth, Grease, Web, etc. as well as items such as Alchemist's Fire or oil/acid flasks. What D&D DOESN'T have are cantrips that deal damage AND create a surface effect in addition or even on a miss. Of course throwing an oil flask with your rogue and having your mage set it ablaze with Burning Hands or even a Firebolt should remain, no one is arguing that.
But a Firebolt that creates a fire ground effect by itself is a bit much, not to mention the general overuse of such effects.

Oh, you mean except for the OP, that literally said that? Oh my, what about all the people that wholeheartedly agree? They've been duped!

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Kendaric
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Concerning "Elemental effects have no business in a D&D game, jump to 25:56

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j1wd4Ay81A&ab_channel=OutsideXtra


Virtually no one claims that ground effects have "no business in D&D", most of us are quite aware that D&D has a lot of ground based spells like Spike Growth, Grease, Web, etc. as well as items such as Alchemist's Fire or oil/acid flasks. What D&D DOESN'T have are cantrips that deal damage AND create a surface effect in addition or even on a miss. Of course throwing an oil flask with your rogue and having your mage set it ablaze with Burning Hands or even a Firebolt should remain, no one is arguing that.
But a Firebolt that creates a fire ground effect by itself is a bit much, not to mention the general overuse of such effects.

Oh, you mean except for the OP, that literally said that? Oh my, what about all the people that wholeheartedly agree? They've been duped!


Or maybe they just read more than the first sentence and try to understand the OP's feelings....

Last edited by Maximuuus; 21/10/20 06:49 PM.
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Also I would like if Larian avoid changing base 5e classes WITHOUT first them being implemented and tested as they should be in game. Changes to Rogues before even EA started is silly. We didn't even test a base 5e class in BG3.

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Originally Posted by Paimon
Originally Posted by coredumped
We all like Larian here, at least to some extent. Otherwise we wouldn't have bothered to pay full price for a severely unfinished EA game, play the buggy mess, create an account in their forums and take time out of our days to come and try to better the game. Still, it remains the fact that Larian has taken several liberties with the game which made many people upset, and rightly so...

This is a thing I wish more people understood. We're not here to whine on the internet. The whole point of an Alpha release is to air out these things so that Larian can get ahead of problems. If we didn't see a great game just under the surface of this one, then we'd have just stayed quiet, gotten a return from steam, and left.

A large portion of the flaws and broken mechanics in BG3 stem directly from the deviations away from the rules of 5e. When you have a system that is designed to act in a certain way, every change has knock on effects.

There is no option to use the perception or investigation skill actively, instead your "passive" perception is a roll. This causes several problems and exploits. First, because it's a roll, it tells you that there is something to notice, but without a way to investigate, you can't move carefully through a trap filled dungeon the way you would in normal D&D. But also, your familiars get a "passive" perception check, and since each summoned familiar is a new creature, and is treated like a disposable pet, it can be summoned infinitely for free. So any time your group fails a perception check, you can summon new familiars until one succeeds on the check. If passive perception instead worked the way it was supposed to, then this exploit wouldn't exist. Instead, any character that had a high enough passive would automatically notice the thing on the ground.

Without active perception, there is nothing that the AI can do once your party successfully gets into stealth. Because Passive perception doesn't exist, everyone automatically succeeds on stealth checks once they get out of line of sight. Stealth is supposed to be something you can attempt with cover or concealment, but there is no cover or concealment mechanically, only line of sight. This means that rogues get shafted again, since they need total concealment to make a stealth check. The changes to cover and concealment and the seeming replacement with advantage and disadvantage from elevation also play havoc with balance. Cover is supposed to give a bonus to AC, and it's supposed to let you hide. It's not supposed to give you a bonus to hit.

The AI will drop everything to get a height advantage so that it can more easily hit you. And there is no benefit to being partially behind something. These two things trivialize a lot of the tactics of a normal 5e fight. But surface effects just annihilate them. Having rare environmental advantages and disadvantages exist in a game adds some fun flavor to fights. Having nearly every fight devolve into a fight to see who can explode the other the most with random explosive barrels does not. But it's worse than that. That's an easy fix, have less barrels, give the goblins fewer flasks of acid. Cantrips however are another can of worms.

....


This is the best post in the thread, and should be agreed upon by everyone that wants a D&D game. Please change height/backstab/surfaces, and honestly take the time you need to make a better AI.

Surfaces don't need to be fully removed (though I would be very happy to see them go), a fireball should leave some sort of fire on the ground, and that's probably fine, but why does every area have oil barrels and flammable booze buckets laying around? Down the line it is going to make gameplay much worse, rather than better. Imagine actually getting to level 10, or 12, and still just firebolting barrels when you should have all these other cool spells or actions you could be using because it's still the most efficient thing you can do. If surfaces are a thing we need to live with they should at least be REWARDING to use, require some setup or forethought, instead of there just being an oil barrel in every room of every dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Paimon

This is a thing I wish more people understood. We're not here to whine on the internet. The whole point of an Alpha release is to air out these things so that Larian can get ahead of problems. If we didn't see a great game just under the surface of this one, then we'd have just stayed quiet, gotten a return from steam, and left.

A large portion of the flaws and broken mechanics in BG3 stem directly from the deviations away from the rules of 5e. When you have a system that is designed to act in a certain way, every change has knock on effects.

There is no option to use the perception or investigation skill actively, instead your "passive" perception is a roll. This causes several problems and exploits. First, because it's a roll, it tells you that there is something to notice, but without a way to investigate, you can't move carefully through a trap filled dungeon the way you would in normal D&D. But also, your familiars get a "passive" perception check, and since each summoned familiar is a new creature, and is treated like a disposable pet, it can be summoned infinitely for free. So any time your group fails a perception check, you can summon new familiars until one succeeds on the check. If passive perception instead worked the way it was supposed to, then this exploit wouldn't exist. Instead, any character that had a high enough passive would automatically notice the thing on the ground.

Without active perception, there is nothing that the AI can do once your party successfully gets into stealth. Because Passive perception doesn't exist, everyone automatically succeeds on stealth checks once they get out of line of sight. Stealth is supposed to be something you can attempt with cover or concealment, but there is no cover or concealment mechanically, only line of sight. This means that rogues get shafted again, since they need total concealment to make a stealth check. The changes to cover and concealment and the seeming replacement with advantage and disadvantage from elevation also play havoc with balance. Cover is supposed to give a bonus to AC, and it's supposed to let you hide. It's not supposed to give you a bonus to hit.

The AI will drop everything to get a height advantage so that it can more easily hit you. And there is no benefit to being partially behind something. These two things trivialize a lot of the tactics of a normal 5e fight. But surface effects just annihilate them. Having rare environmental advantages and disadvantages exist in a game adds some fun flavor to fights. Having nearly every fight devolve into a fight to see who can explode the other the most with random explosive barrels does not. But it's worse than that. That's an easy fix, have less barrels, give the goblins fewer flasks of acid. Cantrips however are another can of worms.

....


The funny thing is – DOS2 already had what you would describe as Passive Perception with their Wits ability. You needed a certain number in Wits and you’d automatically succeed as noticing things. So they’ve moved away from something which is more in tune with 5E toward some broken mechanic that ruins the experience. I really don’t think they understand D&D very well.

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Originally Posted by Benny89

This is because I wanted to play DnD. I am playing Table RPGs for 15 years now and for last 3 years I DM and play DnD 5e. I was really excited to play BG3 and really happy that it's Larian that will make it. But I was hoped to play almost 100% 5e system. Maybe 95% as some things can't be that easy put into cRPG.

But currently game is too much like DOS2. And I really don't like it. I feel "cheated" (strong world but hear me out first) that I was supposed to play DnD, not DOS2 1.5. I know it's EA, and I understand game can still be changed/adjusted so I take my chance here to post feedback and hope that Devs will hear me out.


100%.
I really want to play DnD and currently the similarly to DoS overshadows it.

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+1 with everything here.

Especially number 2.

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Originally Posted by nizanegusa
well said!
two minor disagreements:
even though i like alignment more than my friends, it's not really part of 5e anymore.
5e is not perfectly balanced. if you give out no magic items magic users will overshadow martials at higher levels.
also i would not mind them buffing shitty spells like find traps, witch bolt or barskin.


First +1 times infinity to the OP and second poster!!! To the quoted above:

True, alignment isn't a major factor in 5E anymore, but its not completely invisible either.

5E is not "perfectly" balanced, but what the OP is saying is why have Larian rehash solved problems in 5E by making poor/uninformed changes to the system that has been through years of playtesting already?

The OP also didn't say "don't give any magic items" he said don't pepper them on PC's in the level range of 1-10 well over and above what they should have in those tiers. Its already problematic enough that goblins are throwing thousands of gold worth of alchemical bombs and magic arrows at a level 2 party.

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Originally Posted by Dominemesis
Its already problematic enough that goblins are throwing thousands of gold worth of alchemical bombs and magic arrows at a level 2 party.


Yup. It's riddiculous. Goblins are the lowest tier enemies you face in DnD, tied with Kobolds probably. Yet they somehow have funds and access to magic arrows, achlemical bombs etc. This is just stupid. So what Orcs will have? Magical Axes, magical plate armors, ring of protection +1, Orc Shaman will have Staff of Magi?

There is no DnD balance here. Take a look at NWN1 beginning or BG1 beginning. You are lucky to find something else than throwing axe from enemies and a wolf can kill you. Tha is what level 1 in DnD is. And goblins have 2 coppers on them, short bows and some normal arrows, sometimes club or dagger/short sword.

This is fantasy setting, but it's not DnD.

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Originally Posted by Benny89
Originally Posted by Dominemesis
Its already problematic enough that goblins are throwing thousands of gold worth of alchemical bombs and magic arrows at a level 2 party.


Yup. It's riddiculous. Goblins are the lowest tier enemies you face in DnD, tied with Kobolds probably. Yet they somehow have funds and access to magic arrows, achlemical bombs etc. This is just stupid. So what Orcs will have? Magical Axes, magical plate armors, ring of protection +1, Orc Shaman will have Staff of Magi?

There is no DnD balance here. Take a look at NWN1 beginning or BG1 beginning. You are lucky to find something else than throwing axe from enemies and a wolf can kill you. Tha is what level 1 in DnD is. And goblins have 2 coppers on them, short bows and some normal arrows, sometimes club or dagger/short sword.

This is fantasy setting, but it's not DnD.

So I'm curious; are you paying attention to the dialog from NPCs outside of "go kill x"? I have to ask, because there is Absolute-ly an explanation for how the goblins are acting given in a dialog, in the Druid's Grove. I'm at a loss to explain how, if you're actually exploring the dialog from NPCs in that zone, you're not getting that. I'm at a loss to explain how you're not getting it if you managed to get into the Blighted Village w/out combat, and listened to the ambient discussions going on with the goblins there. Because there are Absolute-ly some rather strong hints there too. There are clues all throughout the goblin camp that they Absolute-ly aren't working on their own. In fact, I'm Absolute-ly positive that there are tons of clues scattered all over the map, even in magic items that can drop that Absolute-ly explain that there's a force working behind the scenes.

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Stop using story as an excuse for shitty balancing. "oh its the absolute", well doesn't change that every Goblin has bombs and got archers with fancy arrows. That's not how balance works.

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Speaking of balance, I aggroed the entire goblin camp by trying to get that goblin to kiss my feet. What ensued was an epic fight where I only had two characters using high ground to murder most of the camp(and only my ranger was alive at the end). BUT during the fight, a level one NPC used color spray 5 times (4 of which were in a row). Now, that's either a crapload of money he wasted on scrolls or the NPC's don't use spell slots like the heroes do. Just like the level 4 archers firing twice, or the level 5 gnoll archers firing three times. I love Larian, but I'm questioning a lot of their design choices for this game(which I wouldn't do as much if it wasn't marketed as a D&D game).


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Originally Posted by Victordeus
Speaking of balance, I aggroed the entire goblin camp by trying to get that goblin to kiss my feet. What ensued was an epic fight where I only had two characters using high ground to murder most of the camp(and only my ranger was alive at the end). BUT during the fight, a level one NPC used color spray 5 times (4 of which were in a row). Now, that's either a crapload of money he wasted on scrolls or the NPC's don't use spell slots like the heroes do. Just like the level 4 archers firing twice, or the level 5 gnoll archers firing three times. I love Larian, but I'm questioning a lot of their design choices for this game(which I wouldn't do as much if it wasn't marketed as a D&D game).



Yup. Enemies don't care about spell slots, they straight up cheat. Not including the crap ton of grenades and special arrows. The enemies are also "Larian'd" up. Where they are given some weird attacks and things just...for the sake of it? Like "oh give it more" It's designed by a DM that has barely played DnD. Like Phase spiders having range. The whole point of their teleport is to teleport in, melee then get out next turn. Giving you 1 turn to hit them. Now they just teleport, range attack and just keep doing it. It took me forever to kill 1 spider because it kept going high up in a place I couldn't even see and just using range because...Larian. -.- Every monster has this issue, including Minotaurs.

This is their stats from 5e directly.
Charge: If the minotaur moves at least 10 ft. straight toward a target and then hits it with a gore Attack on the same turn, the target takes an extra 9 (2d8) piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 14 Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 10 ft. away and knocked prone.

Labyrinthine Recall: The minotaur can perfectly recall any path it has traveled.

Reckless: At the start of its turn, the minotaur can gain advantage on all melee weapon Attack rolls it makes during that turn, but Attack rolls against it have advantage until the start of its next turn.

Actions Greataxe: Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 17 (2d12 + 4) slashing damage.

Gore: Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 13 (2d8 + 4) piercing damage.

No where there is a prone jump attack with 3x attack. Right now these Minotaurs, while sharing the same base hp and AC, have a speed of fucking 60, can not only Charge for 2d8 but also do a AOE Jump that does 1d8 damage and can knock prone anyone in its rather large radius, and on top of that, they get a multi attack. That means that one Minotaur, without its Greataxe, can jump, deal 1d8 damage and knock everyone prone, then do a Gore attack with advantage twice, dealing 2d8+4 each time, and then charge through for another 2d8. In one round, one of these fuckers can do 7d8, without the use of any resource whatsoever. Oh, and they also have Reckless attack, which means that if they fail to knock you prone, they got advantage anyway.

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Stop using story as an excuse for shitty balancing. "oh its the absolute", well doesn't change that every Goblin has bombs and got archers with fancy arrows. That's not how balance works.

I read this as "Stop using the stuff the game tells us to explain the stuff we find in the game". What's that that Castle used to tell Becket? Oh yeah, "Stop ruining my stories with your logic".

You see, the problem with your ultimatum here is that I was responding to how they may have come up with this equipment, and how they may have learned better tactics. I get that we have to be on board with this "but my DnD" narrative, but the entirety of the plotline was approved by WotC. If it hadn't been approved, you can bet it wouldn't be in the game. No matter how much of a purist one wants to be, when the owner of the IP says "This is ok", it's ok. Now, you can rally together a social media mob to attack them if you're unhappy about their decision, but until they reverse course on it, they've approved it, and that means that it is, in fact, DnD.

A lot of people want to crack the whip on Larian for poor writing, but here's the story you're trying to tell, in a nutshell:

So a new power in the Realms is trying to take over and remove all the Gods from their pantheons. What is their army, you ask, and rightly so, for such an ambitious undertaking? Why, it's Goblins of course, armed with pointy sticks.

Do you see the flaw with your narrative here? The Absolute, whomever they may be, is very definitely well connected. How do I know that? Because our tadpole has been altered. I'm afraid that the clout, and ability to do something like that is going to require something more than goblins with pointy sticks. So while people huff and puff about "not DnD" about something that was approved by the people with the final say on what is or isn't, I have to look at the story, and plot, what of it we have at this point, and make a judgement call based on what's been provided to us. That you, or anyone else, want(s) to ignore that because "but my DnD" doesn't mean a whole lot in the current context of how content gets introduced into the game. It's not some homebrewed version of DnD, it's approved by the owners of the source material, and if they say yes, you can slip into denial, and try to ignore the information provided in game all you like, but it doesn't make you right, and, it doesn't give you some sort of "high ground" to say "stop using things in the game to explain things in the game".

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Stop using story as an excuse for shitty balancing. "oh its the absolute", well doesn't change that every Goblin has bombs and got archers with fancy arrows. That's not how balance works.

I read this as "Stop using the stuff the game tells us to explain the stuff we find in the game". What's that that Castle used to tell Becket? Oh yeah, "Stop ruining my stories with your logic".

You see, the problem with your ultimatum here is that I was responding to how they may have come up with this equipment, and how they may have learned better tactics. I get that we have to be on board with this "but my DnD" narrative, but the entirety of the plotline was approved by WotC. If it hadn't been approved, you can bet it wouldn't be in the game. No matter how much of a purist one wants to be, when the owner of the IP says "This is ok", it's ok. Now, you can rally together a social media mob to attack them if you're unhappy about their decision, but until they reverse course on it, they've approved it, and that means that it is, in fact, DnD.

A lot of people want to crack the whip on Larian for poor writing, but here's the story you're trying to tell, in a nutshell:

So a new power in the Realms is trying to take over and remove all the Gods from their pantheons. What is their army, you ask, and rightly so, for such an ambitious undertaking? Why, it's Goblins of course, armed with pointy sticks.

Do you see the flaw with your narrative here? The Absolute, whomever they may be, is very definitely well connected. How do I know that? Because our tadpole has been altered. I'm afraid that the clout, and ability to do something like that is going to require something more than goblins with pointy sticks. So while people huff and puff about "not DnD" about something that was approved by the people with the final say on what is or isn't, I have to look at the story, and plot, what of it we have at this point, and make a judgement call based on what's been provided to us. That you, or anyone else, want(s) to ignore that because "but my DnD" doesn't mean a whole lot in the current context of how content gets introduced into the game. It's not some homebrewed version of DnD, it's approved by the owners of the source material, and if they say yes, you can slip into denial, and try to ignore the information provided in game all you like, but it doesn't make you right, and, it doesn't give you some sort of "high ground" to say "stop using things in the game to explain things in the game".


TL;DR: 2020 WotC is trash and they are - once again - running the Realm's world lore into the ground... seems legit! laugh

Seriously, though, do you KNOW the game's story was approved by Wizards, or do you guess? I mean, it's possible Larian is building new canon here, but who is to tell whether or not all the details have been signed off on?

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