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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
I'm sure this will get very boring pretty fast if they don't carefully manage each encounter instead of just lazily spamming ranged enemies ( Spells, Ranged Weapons, Throwables ) abusing high ground advantage. Don't forget the encounters are limited, we have no respawning enemies over here. That's why D:OS2 got incredibly boring after Driftwood, besides having 0% char progression since everything became a "Highest Initiative One Shot Wins" fest.


That's the thing, though. You need a working framework to make the game engaging outside of planned/scripted events... proper party/character management, expendable resources (camping supplies, ammunition, etc.), maybe crafting. D&D is not only about following a set story, moving from scene to scene, set piece to set piece, that's not role playing, that's storytelling.

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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
I'm sure this will get very boring pretty fast if they don't carefully manage each encounter instead of just lazily spamming ranged enemies ( Spells, Ranged Weapons, Throwables ) abusing high ground advantage. Don't forget the encounters are limited, we have no respawning enemies over here. That's why D:OS2 got incredibly boring after Driftwood, besides having 0% char progression since everything became a "Highest Initiative One Shot Wins" fest.


I wouldn't say its boring.

Maybe if you decided to make a lone wolf build where you really needed to one shot things to make it work, then sure i guess one shotting things was boring. It's also boring when you murder hobo everything before their "talk encounter begins." As far as character progression goes, I'd actually have to give you that one, i don't really remember all of their stories for the most part. (Doctor was adhramalehk, fane was special, prince...something about assasins, sebeille...was a slave?)

Monsters shouldn't respawn in places you have cleared, that feels like an exp farm to me.

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Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by override367

the problem is they had to give the goblins 3 times the hitpoints as a balancing mechanic for their unnecessary elevation system

I disagree with elevation being unnecessary. This is useful for tactical advantage and for strategy planning with the godsawful camera angles. If the enemy AI had some intelligence then the health could be more in line with what it should be. They should move to look for a hidden player and not just stand there like idiots, maybe some should even run away if they take damage. If they know an enemy is somewhere in the rafters then they should use some kind of AoE attack up there to flush them out. This kind of behaviour would also help those that insist they will only play melee and rush in to a fight.

5e already has a cover system.

Cover is easier to obtain at elevation, and harder to obtain at lower elevation.

Giving a 3:1 advantage/disadvantage is asinine, it's the single most important factor in any combat. It makes a low AC spectator as hard to hit as an Iron Golem or a Red Dragon is supposed to be, and it makes your platemail+shield character as easy to hit as a naked wizard. It also makes it impossible for your rogues to sneak attack a creature above them (this isn't hyperbole, sneak attack won't function in that circumstance, where as in D&D 5e, it would) Good luck if you planned on playing an Assassin.


Originally Posted by Thrythlind
To be perfectly honest, every CRPG is this to me and I still have fun with them. I'll let CRPGs slide on things I'd never accept from a tabletop game because of the limits of a computer.

But that said...I do hate some of the implementation of skill rolls. There are places where it feels like they replaced a dialogue puzzle with "roll a die" and it just feels frustrating and annoying when I run into that...especially in comparison to where they implement things well.


Almost none of the complaints have anything to do with the limitations of a CRPG

Changes from 5e like reducing the maximum range of attacks are a concession to a CRPG, because spell sniper eldritch blasts hitting things from across the map won't be workable.
Putting fire everywhere or making 5 feet of elevation confer a 3:1 advantage are deliberate design choices, not compromises.

Last edited by override367; 21/10/20 01:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by Doomlord
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Doomlord

2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.
0

Yeah combat is way too much about racing to high ground and spamming arrows and bombs that leave surfaces. And exploiting the game against a superior enemy with free Shoves and backstabs.

Where is the battle that plays out "normally"? Where a tanky Fighter goes in first and HOLDS the front. Fighters don't draw any aggro much less hold anyone.

I don't like it how basically all the monsters have been given weapons that leave surfaces. Goblins have special arrows and bombs. Phase Spiders now have a ranged spit that leaves a large pool of poison. Because of course they do. Etc.




+1


+1 I really hope they change their height / elevation, surfaces, throwables.

I feel like I'm playing DOS King of the Hill Rush the Ladder Edition.


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I was min/maxing exploiting this broken advantage mechanic - champion fighter on a highground with elven accuracy & sharpshooter & rolled stats would break the game with multiple attacks per round and crit fishing

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You're exaggerating in almost every point. Which is fine to make a point but you just sound so aggressive towards the developers. The game is in a decent place overall (obviously needs some improvements)

Last edited by Alon Binyamin; 22/10/20 02:56 AM.
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My intent was not to exaggerate, though I do tend towards the dramatic.

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.

I am not a rules purist. But if the intent of BG3 is supposed to be more than the cynical use of a revered brand name to make DOS3, then the spirit of the gameplay needs to change.

I am enjoying the companions a lot more now, but still feel like good natured or light hearted additions would help immensely.

Last edited by Grimo; 22/10/20 04:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by Grimo

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.


Sad but true...

Last edited by Maximuuus; 22/10/20 05:00 AM.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Grimo

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.


Sad but true...


Yup

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Grimo

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.


Sad but true...


Yup


That's it. So true.

I found it pretentious when he said it and that it was "more strategic" but, cause I liked DOS2 I waited to see. Now I saw and i agree. This is more like a DOS3 with BG attire than a BG3.

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Hight differences were never a huge part of dos battles


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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I join in and say: yes to everithing in the first post.
this game feels like no one likes you and after some time I don´t like anyone eather. thats not how I like to play. (yea I know I am the boring type trying to do good(chaotic good smile )
Every party member hides something and it is obviouse that they do, it gets really boring.
and he is wight with the cutscenes at the gate. have the fight I try to get to the fight... and after a massive battle, I get normal swords and bows, if i am lucky. It does not feel rewarding at all.

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Originally Posted by Grimo
My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.


100% agree with you on that.
It feels so much like DoS it actually cancels out the nostalgic feeling I want to feel playing a BG game. Also, it significantly hurt the emotional connection I'm having with the game based on my familiarity with 5e.

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Originally Posted by Abits
Hight differences were never a huge part of dos battles


Are you really sure?? DOS2 increased damage when shooting from high ground. Marksman skill increased that trait even more.

Nevertheless, would BG3 have decided to add 2raw damage instead of an advantage, the game would be way more close to DnD5e

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Originally Posted by Grimo
My intent was not to exaggerate, though I do tend towards the dramatic.

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.

I am not a rules purist. But if the intent of BG3 is supposed to be more than the cynical use of a revered brand name to make DOS3, then the spirit of the gameplay needs to change.

I am enjoying the companions a lot more now, but still feel like good natured or light hearted additions would help immensely.



Considering how much feedback they are getting on "be more like 5e" I think we'll see some changes coming. Most of those changes shouldn't be difficult to make either. Make all the combat bonus actions into actions, easy.
Give rogues more cunning actions back, also should be easy.
Tone down surfaces and make spells more true to their origins: should be easy.

And this is EA, I think they should try it out, and we can see how it works out.

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Haven't played the game yet, but was looking around to see how the game is coming along. This thread stood out to me, as the problems it adresses are very similar to the problems I had with DOS2. So first I got some questions for those still playing EA:
Have there been many changes to the game mechanics around the height advantage?
Are surfaces toned down yet?
Are most battles still setup as an ambush where you win by using meta knowledge to setup your party beforehand?
Can you also move around your characters while one talks to get very silly pre-fight advantages?
Are battles much faster than DOS2? I would've been fine with DOS2 combat, if it was more snappy. I would really like to see moves and animations sped up, like in fire emblem for example.

I'll also give my cup of tea on these subjects.

Surfaces are a great idea, but there's a tendency to overuse the concept. Many things, like sand or green grass, shouldn't catch fire easily. Are enemies standing in dry grass? Then it should catch fire, so throwing a fire bolt at the ground is cool. Same with electrocuting water. It's really cool if you can pull enemies through a river and use electricity on it. It's not cool when you always have a bunch of water balloons to make this happen. Surface effects should be used to make certain situations more memorable, rather than making it always the dominant strategy.

There is an inherent advantage to being on high ground, that negates the need for also giving advantage. D&D 5e already has a cover system. Often times, being on high ground will allow you to shoot at enemies over their cover. The high ground might allow you to target the enemy, or have their cover be less effective. Additionally, looking up at someone can give cover to that person, at which point it also matters how near you are to the cliff. This would make much more sense than just giving straight up advantage to attack rolls. So everyone saying that high ground being advantageous makes sense... It does, and a DM can use the cover system to simulate that. Additionally, giving advantage so often diminishes a lot of other abilities. Ranged is already highly advantageous, even in 5e. It's often harder to get advantage than it is for melee characters though.

In terms of difficulty it's important to understand the role of short and long rests. During an adventuring day, you use up resources. This allows a DM to have encounters that aren't super-deadly, while still putting pressure on the players. Not sure about BG3, but in DOS2 you could rest up at all times. This makes it so that you have to go full-nova every battle. That then means all encounters need to be superdifficult to challenge the players. Were you expending resources, the question would be:"Will I go all the way back to town/out of the dungeon for a long rest, or can I continue on a short rest?" This creates a sort of variable difficulty. A player having trouble can take a bunch of extra time (fail state that's not so frustrating) to rest up, which will feel less like an exploit than pre-positioning with meta knowledge. The player confident in their tactical prowess can go through the whole dungeon with short rests and still get challenged. By doing this, you'd need way less of the extremely swingy battles, where the outcome is usually decided by the initial positioning.


My personal opinion is that Larian has a really hard time understanding the importance of contrast. They have amazing ideas and then use them so much that it gets old quick. They also have a tendency to sort of railroad the player through optimal strategies, where you constantly do the same thing, cus it's just always better than all other options. It's cool to find some high ground that is hard for enemies to get to sometimes and use that to your advantage, but if every battle that is the best thing to do, it's boring. It's cool to find an oil barrel at the magical oil refinery and figure out how you'll steal it and carry that along with you to blow some goblins up. It's boring (and immersion-breaking) when there are random oil barrels everywhere.


I'm very curious how BG3 is coming along, but cautiously optimistic. I hope someone can answer these questions.

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Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
Haven't played the game yet, but was looking around to see how the game is coming along. This thread stood out to me, as the problems it adresses are very similar to the problems I had with DOS2. So first I got some questions for those still playing EA:
Have there been many changes to the game mechanics around the height advantage?
Are surfaces toned down yet?
Are most battles still setup as an ambush where you win by using meta knowledge to setup your party beforehand?
Can you also move around your characters while one talks to get very silly pre-fight advantages?

- nothing has changed with Highground and backstab advantage yet.

- surfaces have been towned down A BIT, but there are still huge issues (concentration, damages even if the attack miss,...)

- all battle are VERY hard without metagaming / attacking non hostile creatures before the combats start.

- yes, you can talk with a character to freeze a group of creatures, position the 3 others without a threat than close the dialogs to start combats with better positions.


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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
- all battle are VERY hard without metagaming / attacking non hostile creatures before the combats start.
xD


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Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
Have there been many changes to the game mechanics around the height advantage?
Are surfaces toned down yet?
Are most battles still setup as an ambush where you win by using meta knowledge to setup your party beforehand?
Can you also move around your characters while one talks to get very silly pre-fight advantages?
Are battles much faster than DOS2? I would've been fine with DOS2 combat, if it was more snappy. I would really like to see moves and animations sped up, like in fire emblem for example.

To confirm with Max,

-No, it's just as it was, no change
-Not much; two cantrips had their surface generation effect taken away, that was about it.
-Yes, that's still very much a thing that is encourage, and going in 'normally' almost always leaves you at a dramatic disadvantage otherwise.
-Yes, you can still do this; you can also do it by getting one person into combat while the rest are far away and then sneaking them in while the combat is 'frozen'. Not only is this it a thing, but it's somethign that Swen is particularly excited about abusing and exploiting, and loves as a 'feature'... it's part of his game design 'philosophy' in fact, so it seems unlikely to change.

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